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£9 million on "Bremain" leaflet drop

Look camlon, there is nothing consistent or concise in your line of argument, demonstrated alone by this
You mean approved by the parliament?.............
. As such I tire of having to repeatedly ask you to go back and read. I said exactly what I meant and I'm not playing this game of "you mean...?" If you don't understand it, you don't understand it.

I've already addressed the scope of work of civil servants (check Brit CCs under your own steam), China has nothing to do with anything here and what will happen to both EU and UK in case of a Brexit is something you merely speculate upon. That means guessing and, in my book, not in a manner to make even the guess particularly educated.

I now have to attend to other matters so ........................laterz.
 
So why aren't Switzerland feeling the consequences?

What have they done wrong? And they are feeling the consequences.. it is costing them billions as the Swiss Franc is far too strong.

At least he pays British taxes, in the EU they do not even need to go overseas. They pay a flat 15% tax rate.

Does he? :) That is the question..

So what happens if 55% vote labour? Is he is still in power?

Probably. Not that 55% will vote labour.

The path to kick out Cameron is simple, the path to kick out the current EU leaders is not so clear.

So you basically want the ability to kick out Merkel and others.. so in the UK, do you have the ability to kick out the parliament member of the district next to yours?

How about looking at growth instead, it not impressive to be part of top 20 when you were already there. Also, if you don't believe US unemployment numbers, then we can look at job growth. Since 2010 EU has created 6 million jobs, while US has created 13 million jobs. If you look as a percentage increase, US does even better.

And there are reasons for this and most have nothing to do with the EU as an organisations. Americans are far more mobile than Europeans... Americans move to get jobs, Europeans on average dont. America has relative to Europe, a far more uniform employment structure (redtape and such). Places like France, Italy and Spain have been for decades shooting themselves in the foot on employment rules.. again this has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. You can throw out the numbers but if you dont investigate the background. My classic example is vehicular crime.. Denmark absolute dominates this in the world and yet I cant remember a family or friend ever having their car stolen in Denmark. So why? Because unlike other countries, bicycles in Denmark are also vehicles and we are a country of bicycles... and they get stolen, so that explains that statistic..

So who got the better recovery again?

Again, you have to look at the background. The downturn in the US was far far bigger relative to the European ones. US unemployment jumped from 5 to 15%... and that is massive. European unemployment did also jump but no where near as much. On top of that the unemployment benefits in most European countries are far better than in the US (for good or worse), which means the economic impact on the individual aint as bad. There are tons of factors you have to look at to come to a correct assessment.

And why was there no liquidity in the EU market, while there was plenty of liquidity in the US?

Err there was no liquidity in the US.. still is not. Banks dont lend.

Didn't say they had to leave, just said they got crushed. Good parents will not crush their children.

And your alternative is?

No, during the recent years it hasn't. But in theory you are right, but thats a stupid theory. Why should Greece be solely responsible for policing Europes borders?

Because those are the rules in place set out decades ago. It is stupid I agree, but that are the rules. Greece is responsible for its external EU borders, just as the UK is and Spain. And they get zero economic help let alone logistical help according to the rules. So when migrants flood across the border... well you know.
 
So who nominate the President of the European Commission? Independent, my ass. That would be like the senate nominating the president, and then calling yourself independent of eachother.

The member countries appoint the President. And no it would not be like the senate nominating the President... because at least the US President has power. The EU president is nothing but a glorified office manager.

No they are not just civil servants, they can propose legislation, implement decisions, and uphold EU treaties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Okay first off lets get something straight. Civil servants propose legislation 99% of the time in any country. Do you really think that any Government minister in the UK or any country actually does much of the work on legislation? Of course not, their civil servants and assistants do all the work and check if it is legal and so on. All the politicians do are come with ideas and the civil servants carry them out.

And that is exactly what the EU commission does. The Council of Ministers agree that X has to be handled by the EU, so they set the commission to solve that problem. The Commission comes with a proposal which has to be voted by the Council of Ministers and Parliament. And as they are civil servants, of course they are also the enforcement arm of the EU.... who the hell do you think does that job in your own country?

No, I want less blackmail.

Eh? how will you get less blackmail with less transparency? Blackmail flourishes in no transparency areas..

You again confuse elections with democracy. China got elections too, but due to layers it becomes undemocratic. The same tactic is done by the parliament, hence people do not know what they are voting for. I know you like to blame the voters for that fact, but that is also China's tactic.

No I dont. I see election systems... and in the EU you dont have a system like the British where a minority party can take full control of a country. You need 50.1% in Parliament to get stuff through as a minimum. In the UK you only need 36%.. aka the Torries. That is not a democracy.

Defence is not just NATO, and I like to have a common market.

Defence is just NATO according to the UK and a few others.

And to have a common market, you need common rules. That can not be done via bilateral agreements, but has to be done within a common market organisation like the EU.
 
Do you sometimes read the facts that even this paper states. Or are you more happy with sharing whatever premise it wants to make upon what it reports. Here, let me help actually it's not just that one percentage but never mind. Living in Spain I'm not taxable in the UK and if I were a EU iI wouldn't be taxable in either (seeing how I'm not resident other than at my place of work). Please don't make me go into how many days per calendar year I'd have to reside in any country to be considered taxable there.
And please don't bring up any capital or real estate I might own wherever.
The problem with that thought is that the policy changed in 2009, and before that they paid taxes in their home countries. So how did everything change since then?

And people from UK, Denmark and Sweden pay their national rate, so why can't the rest do it?


again, if that is the case, place the blame where it belongs.
Who do you believe have the blame, the voters? I blaming the ones who set up the system, they are the ones who made it intentionally blurry.


If you go back to read you'll find that I already "hinted".
Why not tel it instead of hinting towards it?


You haven't made a point, let alone evidenced it. Did you not even notice that it's been shreddered?
People who actually come with real arguments, do not need to decleare themselves victors.

I do it for the sake of seriousness and where others don't, I voice my expectations. And where anyone can't get their act together sufficiently to meet those, I let it be known. Taking offence at that is very much like shooting messengers.
No, you acted silly, and you proved it with your rage thread about me. Your first post was not serious, it was sarcastic mean comment, and then you lied. Thats not opening up for a serious discussion.

Look camlon, there is nothing consistent or concise in your line of argument, demonstrated alone by this
.....
. As such I tire of having to repeatedly ask you to go back and read. I said exactly what I meant and I'm not playing this game of "you mean...?" If you don't understand it, you don't understand it.

I've already addressed the scope of work of civil servants (check Brit CCs under your own steam), China has nothing to do with anything here and what will happen to both EU and UK in case of a Brexit is something you merely speculate upon. That means guessing and, in my book, not in a manner to make even the guess particularly educated.
Its a nicer way of saying you said it wrong, do you prefer me to say you are wrong instead?

And China has a lot to do with this, because it invalidates the claim that election are the only factor for democracy. Many dictatorships do have elections, but they rig them. EU has also rigged their elections, but not as bad as China.
 
What have they done wrong? And they are feeling the consequences.. it is costing them billions as the Swiss Franc is far too strong.
You are saying the swiss franc is strong, because they didn't follow EU regulations.

Switzerland is doing really well, they are not facing any consequences.


Probably. Not that 55% will vote labour.
Oh come on man, you know better than this. While Conservatives got 36.8%, Labour only got 30.5%. Still Labour got 232 seats, they would have obviously won if they got 55%, in fact Labour has won the majority of the seats with 40%.

UK does not have rigged elections, but they not have a majority based election. It is somewhat undemocratic, but at least I know what my vote leads to.


So you basically want the ability to kick out Merkel and others.. so in the UK, do you have the ability to kick out the parliament member of the district next to yours?
No, I want to have the ability to kick out the EU president.


And there are reasons for this and most have nothing to do with the EU as an organisations. Americans are far more mobile than Europeans... Americans move to get jobs, Europeans on average dont. America has relative to Europe, a far more uniform employment structure (redtape and such). Places like France, Italy and Spain have been for decades shooting themselves in the foot on employment rules.. again this has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. You can throw out the numbers but if you dont investigate the background. My classic example is vehicular crime.. Denmark absolute dominates this in the world and yet I cant remember a family or friend ever having their car stolen in Denmark. So why? Because unlike other countries, bicycles in Denmark are also vehicles and we are a country of bicycles... and they get stolen, so that explains that statistic..
You just previously claimed US didn't do better than the EU, because they were hiding their unemployment. I am sure you can make up reasons, but EU also got hurt a lot by their instability in 2012. If they had gone out, printed a lot of liquidity from day 1, then it would just have been a slowdown.

Also unemployment went from 5% to 10%, not 15%.


Err there was no liquidity in the US.. still is not. Banks dont lend.
No, there was a big difference, take a look a the difference in money supply. Obviously one of them had more liquidity before 2012.

United States Money Supply M2 | 1959-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar
Euro Area Money Supply M2 | 1980-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

And your alternative is?
You need to give them responsibility over their own economy, and you need to stop delaying things. Cut and get it done. Greece would have been in a much better shape if they just cut salaries across the board by 30% in 2010.

Instead it became slow stepped torture.


Because those are the rules in place set out decades ago. It is stupid I agree, but that are the rules. Greece is responsible for its external EU borders, just as the UK is and Spain. And they get zero economic help let alone logistical help according to the rules. So when migrants flood across the border... well you know.
Yep, and I blame EU for that.
 
Okay first off lets get something straight. Civil servants propose legislation 99% of the time in any country. Do you really think that any Government minister in the UK or any country actually does much of the work on legislation? Of course not, their civil servants and assistants do all the work and check if it is legal and so on. All the politicians do are come with ideas and the civil servants carry them out.

And that is exactly what the EU commission does. The Council of Ministers agree that X has to be handled by the EU, so they set the commission to solve that problem. The Commission comes with a proposal which has to be voted by the Council of Ministers and Parliament. And as they are civil servants, of course they are also the enforcement arm of the EU.... who the hell do you think does that job in your own country?
Thats called the executive branch, and that does give you power. The ones who carry out the laws, can decide how to carry them out.

In my own country the executive branch is done by the government, they are the ones who decide how to implement the laws, they are also the ones who propose laws. Even when the government is in a minority, it is still considered powerful because it can decide how to implement the laws and is always in the center of negotiations.


Eh? how will you get less blackmail with less transparency? Blackmail flourishes in no transparency areas..
Depends on the transparency. Transparency about corruption, then yes, but not about voting. With secret ballots, then you can't blackmail them very easily, because you don't know what they are voting for.

No I dont. I see election systems... and in the EU you dont have a system like the British where a minority party can take full control of a country. You need 50.1% in Parliament to get stuff through as a minimum. In the UK you only need 36%.. aka the Torries. That is not a democracy.
That is the problem, you are just focused on how much each vote counts, but democracy is more than that. Making the system confusing with layers is another way of creating an undemocratic system, and is actually the favourite among dictatorships.


And to have a common market, you need common rules. That can not be done via bilateral agreements, but has to be done within a common market organisation like the EU.
That is why I want to replace the EU, not abolish it.
 
post #76, 1st and 2nd paragraph, serves as sufficiently adequate response.

Still.

FYR the "golden rule" when confronted with any gish gallop is to not dignify it with further response.
 
post #76, 1st and 2nd paragraph, serves as sufficiently adequate response.

Still.

FYR the "golden rule" when confronted with any gish gallop is to not dignify it with further response.

Strange how I am not worthy of a response, but you keep responding to me anyway. This is an easy one for you to not answer, because you don't care too much about this issue. I had to force you to start debating seriously.

I was obviously worthy of a response in the other threads, and I will answer that soon.
 
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