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Your thoughts on Agnostics (1 Viewer)

As a Christian, I have more respect for agnostics then so-called atheists. At least agnostics are admitting they do not know whether or not God exists.

I know that I do not believe in any god. This makes me an athiest.

If evidence comes along then I will look at it. Untill then it is impossible for me to believe in such an odd idea.

I have no respect for religious types who see the need to redifine my position because they can't cope with such a simple position and want to win the argument so lie.
 
But they were not at the time he wrote them nor did he claim they were. His reference to scriptures in his letters is not a reference to his own letters.

The international designation for Biblical papyri is a capital “P” followed by a small superior number. The Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 1 (P⁠45) consists of parts of 30 leaves from a codex that probably once had about 220 leaves. P⁠45 has portions of the four Gospels and the book of Acts. The Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 3 (P⁠47) is a fragmentary codex of Revelation containing ten somewhat damaged leaves. These two papyri are believed to be from the third century C.E.

Quite noteworthy is the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P⁠46) believed to be from about 200 C.E. It has 86 somewhat damaged leaves out of a codex that probably had 104 leaves originally, and it still contains nine of Paul’s inspired letters: Romans, Hebrews, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and First Thessalonians. It is noteworthy that the letter to the Hebrews is included in this early codex.

Since Hebrews does not give its writer’s name, its composition by Paul has frequently been disputed. But this letter’s inclusion in P⁠46, evidently consisting of Paul’s letters exclusively, indicates that in about 200 C.E., Hebrews was accepted by early Christians as an inspired writing of the apostle Paul. The letter to the Ephesians appears in this codex, thus also refuting arguments that Paul did not write this letter.

Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Since it's "easily deniable":

In your best guess estimate, the homo sapiens fossils that have been found that are currently being dated as roughly between 100,000 and 200,000 years old, are how old?
Pretty much any random guess from me would be as good as the guess listed here... We don't know what actually happened 100-200k years ago...

If modern science today is wrong, how wrong are they?
No idea how wrong the aforementioned guess is, IF it is even wrong... We don't know what actually happened 100-200k years ago...

Are you suggesting the Adam & Eve parable in the bible is a factually accurate record of history
I believe it to be. I believe that the events listed in Genesis are historical events that actually happened.

and that it all happened about 6000 years ago?
The Bible makes no mention of how old the universe is, or how old mankind is. I have no idea what happened 6,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 100,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 13.8 billion years ago. I wasn't there to observe it.
 
Pretty much any random guess from me would be as good as the guess listed here... We don't know what actually happened 100-200k years ago...


No idea how wrong the aforementioned guess is, IF it is even wrong... We don't know what actually happened 100-200k years ago...


I believe it to be. I believe that the events listed in Genesis are historical events that actually happened.


The Bible makes no mention of how old the universe is, or how old mankind is. I have no idea what happened 6,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 100,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 13.8 billion years ago. I wasn't there to observe it.

You were not there to observe the writing of the bible. You don't know how old it is.
 
The Bible makes no mention of how old the universe is, or how old mankind is. I have no idea what happened 6,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 100,000 years ago. I have no idea what happened 13.8 billion years ago. I wasn't there to observe it.

Does the bible mention dinosaurs?

Are dinosaur fossils fake? Or at the very least completely misunderstood from the standpoint of how old they are?
 
This does not contradict what I said. Paul refers to scriptures in his letters. He is not referring to his own letters as scriptures.

That is because he is writing them at the time...why would he? At the time, they were letters to different disciples, as well as to the congregations that existed then, but Paul still acknowledged he was writing “according to the wisdom given him” from Jehovah, as did Peter...

"For to one is given speech of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit," 1 Corinthians 12:8

"Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." Peter 3:15, 16...
 
How do you know that truth definitely exists?

Let's use this little hypothetical example to show you why truth definitely exists:

devildavid: There is no such thing as truth.
gfm7175: Is THAT true?

See how such a claim would be self-refuting?
 
Let's use this little hypothetical example to show you why truth definitely exists:

devildavid: There is no such thing as truth.
gfm7175: Is THAT true?

See how such a claim would be self-refuting?

No, I don't. Because there is no end to this line of thinking. Is THAT true THAT is true?

And another thing. Something being true is not the same as Truth. So it is only a semantic game.

The question is does Truth exist, not can something be true. There is a difference.
 
That is because he is writing them at the time...why would he? At the time, they were letters to different disciples, as well as to the congregations that existed then, but Paul still acknowledged he was writing “according to the wisdom given him” from Jehovah, as did Peter...

"For to one is given speech of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit," 1 Corinthians 12:8

"Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." Peter 3:15, 16...

You finally get my point. Paul does not claim his letters are being dictated by god. He only refers to the scriptures existing at the time as coming from god.
 
You finally get my point. Paul does not claim his letters are being dictated by god. He only refers to the scriptures existing at the time as coming from god.

Well, I certainly don't get the point you are making with that since a lot of writers did not specifically refer to their own writings...
 
Well, I certainly don't get the point you are making with that since a lot of writers did not specifically refer to their own writings...

So how can we take his letters as gods word when the writer himself made no such claim.
 
This does not contradict what I said. Paul refers to scriptures in his letters. He is not referring to his own letters as scriptures.

Not only that, but the authorship of those letters are in dispute too... and that attempt to rationalize that away is weak , and quite pitiful in fact.


That attempt is very poor scholarship.
 
Well, I certainly don't get the point you are making with that since a lot of writers did not specifically refer to their own writings...

Let's look at the quote in context. In 2 timothy, let's look at 3:15-17

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

3:15 specifically narrows down the scripture that he was talking about. It is the scripture that Timothy knew as a child. If, as you claim, this was an actual letter from Paul, that would not include ANY of Paul's letters. or anything written after. If it was a later piece, that might include Paul's letters, but no the letter currently being written.

The 'as you known as a child' eliminates that.
 
Let's look at the quote in context. In 2 timothy, let's look at 3:15-17



3:15 specifically narrows down the scripture that he was talking about. It is the scripture that Timothy knew as a child. If, as you claim, this was an actual letter from Paul, that would not include ANY of Paul's letters. or anything written after. If it was a later piece, that might include Paul's letters, but no the letter currently being written.

The 'as you known as a child' eliminates that.

If you think Timothy did not learn from Paul in person, you would be sadly mistaken...

"But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted." 2 Timothy 2:10-12
 
If you think Timothy did not learn from Paul in person, you would be sadly mistaken...

"But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted." 2 Timothy 2:10-12


That is why it's considered a 'psuedographical work'.. In other words, a forgery.
 
If you think Timothy did not learn from Paul in person, you would be sadly mistaken...

"But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted." 2 Timothy 2:10-12

Paul wrote letters to him. That is not in person. Your quote says nothing about learning in person.
 
Paul wrote letters to him. That is not in person. Your quote says nothing about learning in person.

Timothy traveled with Paul during his ministry...Acts 16:1-5; 17:1-10
 
You were not there to observe the writing of the bible. You don't know how old it is.

Correct; I don't know for sure how old the scriptures contained within The Bible are...
 
Timothy traveled with Paul during his ministry...Acts 16:1-5; 17:1-10

From 1 Timothy


1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith," has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on.

Literary style. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative style, far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians.

The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality.

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.

The arguments that establish the inauthenticity of the pastoral epistles are expounded by Kummel in his Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 371-84. In addition to providing more detail to the arguments stated by Perrin, Kummel adds a few more considerations.

Concerning the struggle against the false teachers, Kummel writes (op. cit., pp. 379-80):

. . . in addition to the predictions concerning the appearance of the false teachers 'in the last days' (I Tim 4:1 ff; II Tim 3:1 ff, 13; 4:3 f), there are references to the present activity of the false teachers and instructions about combating them (I Tim 1:3 ff, 19 f; 6:20 f; II Tim 2:16 ff; 3:8; Tit 1:10 ff; 3:9 ff), so that there is no perceptible distinction between the teaching of the predicted false teachers and the present ones. But since nowhere in the Pastorals is there to be found any consciousness of living 'in the last days,' in the prediction of the End-time which evidently describes present phenomena it is clear that we are dealing only with a traditional literary motif (vaticinium ex eventu) which is now being employed by 'Paul.' Still more striking, however, is the matter of how the false teachers are opposed. Completely otherwise than in Col, the viewpoints of the false teachers are not contradicted by being confronted with the preaching about Christ, but they are countered simply by reference to the traditional teaching, from which the false teachers have erred and which is to be held fast (I Tim 4:1; 6:20; II Tim 1:14; 2:2 Tit 3:10 f). The lack of any substantive debate cannot be explained on the ground that Paul did not regard the prattle of false teachers as being worth contradicting and assumed that Timothy and Titus themselves knew what should be said in refutation of the false teachers. In that case there would be no necessity to make those addressed aware of the dangers of the false teaching in detail. This lack is much more readily explained by the fact that Paul is not writing these letters.
 
God knows...
 

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