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Your right to clean air..

sbrettt

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I do not believe the government has the right to ban smoking in businesses. I believe the business owner should be the one making that call. They have a right to allow smoking on their property. Now many people will say "yeah, well I have a right to clean air". That is true, except when you are in someone else's home, their right to smoke on their property trumps your right to clean air. You don't have to be in someone's home just as you don't have to go to the bar that allows smoking. Why does your right to clean air trump the business owners rights as the property owner, but not the rights of the homeowner? I think the property owners right should trump your right to clean air in both cases. If you don't like it, take your business somewhere else. Simple as that.
 

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On the property-rights issue, I'd be somewhat inclined to agree.

There is also a worker-safety issue, however. We have it pretty solidly established, these days, that a worker has a right to a reasonably safe workplace. The health effects of secondhand tobacco smoke are well-enough established that to allow smoking in a place where any nonsmoker works would certainly violate that worker's right to a safe workplace.
 

sangha

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Why does your right to clean air trump the business owners rights as the property owner, but not the rights of the homeowner?
Because a home is a private accommodation, and a business is a public accommodation
 

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On the property-rights issue, I'd be somewhat inclined to agree.

There is also a worker-safety issue, however. We have it pretty solidly established, these days, that a worker has a right to a reasonably safe workplace. The health effects of secondhand tobacco smoke are well-enough established that to allow smoking in a place where any nonsmoker works would certainly violate that worker's right to a safe workplace.
The numbers I've seen on second hand smoke (admittedly some 20 years ago) showed that prolonged exposure increased your chances of lung cancer by 30%. Specifically, the numbers showed that the probability of getting lung cancer increased from 32 in a million to 43 in a million, or about the same probability that your life will end by falling from one level to another. In fact, the risk from second hand smoke was (and is) greatly exaggerated.
 

sbrettt

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On the property-rights issue, I'd be somewhat inclined to agree.

There is also a worker-safety issue, however. We have it pretty solidly established, these days, that a worker has a right to a reasonably safe workplace. The health effects of secondhand tobacco smoke are well-enough established that to allow smoking in a place where any nonsmoker works would certainly violate that worker's right to a safe workplace.
They can find work at a different establishment. They don't have to be there.
 

specklebang

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Because the era itself of public smoking has ended. Some of you old farts will nember the end of the era of NO SPITTING signs, that replaced spittoons just as NO SMOKING is replacing the public ashtrays. You can smoke all you want in your house, your car, certain bars in certain states and there are even a few states that pretty much allow it all. But it is dying. Japanese, who LOVE to smoke, can no longer smoke on city streets - my understanding is you don't dare try it either.

The times they are a changin'.
 

sbrettt

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Because a home is a private accommodation, and a business is a public accommodation
Both are privately owned. A bystander can exercise their right to clean air simply by going to a difference business. That way, both parties win because the property owner also retains their right to allow smoking on there property.
 

MarineTpartier

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I also tend to agree with this. I hate smoke. WITH A PASSION. However, the fact that I do would probably put some establishments off limits. In time, I think the fact that these establishments are losing business from people like me will at least make them have a designated smoking area that is sealed off from the rest of the establishment. I've seen this in a Buffalo Wild Wings in Oklahoma. I couldn't even tell that people were smoking in there. I still believe that gov't controlled areas like sidewalks, mass transit stations, etc should be no smoking. If the gov't owns it or contributes money to it, no smoking. If a citizen or group of citizens own it and receive no funding from the gov't, its their choice. Simple as that.
 

sbrettt

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The numbers I've seen on second hand smoke (admittedly some 20 years ago) showed that prolonged exposure increased your chances of lung cancer by 30%. Specifically, the numbers showed that the probability of getting lung cancer increased from 32 in a million to 43 in a million, or about the same probability that your life will end by falling from one level to another. In fact, the risk from second hand smoke was (and is) greatly exaggerated.
The risk is definitely there and worth noting. It is also avoidable.
 

sangha

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Because the era itself of public smoking has ended. Some of you old farts will nember the end of the era of NO SPITTING signs, that replaced spittoons just as NO SMOKING is replacing the public ashtrays. You can smoke all you want in your house, your car, certain bars in certain states and there are even a few states that pretty much allow it all. But it is dying. Japanese, who LOVE to smoke, can no longer smoke on city streets - my understanding is you don't dare try it either.

The times they are a changin'.
i'd love to send all these libertarian type whiners to Singapore and watch their heads explode as someone explains *their* laws.
 

sangha

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Both are privately owned. A bystander can exercise their right to clean air simply by going to a difference business. That way, both parties win because the property owner also retains their right to allow smoking on there property.
Doesn't matter. One is a private accommodation and the other is not.

Different things; different rules

libertarians can exercise their right to not have to comply with those rules by not owning a business that runs as a public accommodation.
 

head of joaquin

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They can find work at a different establishment. They don't have to be there.
A false premise since it's hard to find work.

Using this logic, we should have no worker protection laws, like the good old days when owners of capital sent kids into mines, and had women inhaling asbestos all day.

What a sick view of the world conservatives have.
 

head of joaquin

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The risk is definitely there and worth noting. It is also avoidable.
Maybe someday your kid will someday face starvation or working in an asbestos factory without any worker protections due to your voting choices.

So that's Ok with you, eh?
 

sbrettt

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Different things; different rules

libertarians can exercise their right to not have to comply with those rules by not owning a business that runs as a public accommodation.
That bill was passed to combat discrimination. It is not discrimination to smoke on your own property.
 

specklebang

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i'd love to send all these libertarian type whiners to Singapore and watch their heads explode as someone explains *their* laws.
I think you ascribe a political aspect to everything but in this issue (and many others), it's not at all about politics, it's about evolutionary process. Things change. People don't like change. Eventually, they get over it and find something else to fret about.

Personally, I hate change. Everything in my house is exactly where I put it in the first place. Move one pen and you can destabilize me. I was a nearly lifelong smoker who remembers well complimentary cigarettes on airplanes. I've even smoked in theaters before those laws were implemented (for fire reasons). Despite being saved by E-cigs this year, I'm a smoker through and through and I feel their pain. It is what it is. Something changed.
 

sbrettt

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A false premise since it's hard to find work.
So your position reverses when it's easy to find work?
Using this logic, we should have no worker protection laws, like the good old days when owners of capital sent kids into mines, and had women inhaling asbestos all day.
This is a straw man. It's up to the parents whether or not their kids are exposed to smoke.
What a sick view of the world conservatives have.
You would understand my view if you didn't look at the world through a toilet paper roll.
 

sbrettt

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Maybe someday your kid will someday face starvation or working in an asbestos factory without any worker protections due to your voting choices.

So that's Ok with you, eh?
Same strawman. Supporting someone's right smoke on their property doesn't mean you support child labor.
 

sangha

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I think you ascribe a political aspect to everything but in this issue (and many others), it's not at all about politics, it's about evolutionary process. Things change. People don't like change. Eventually, they get over it and find something else to fret about.

Personally, I hate change. Everything in my house is exactly where I put it in the first place. Move one pen and you can destabilize me. I was a nearly lifelong smoker who remembers well complimentary cigarettes on airplanes. I've even smoked in theaters before those laws were implemented (for fire reasons). Despite being saved by E-cigs this year, I'm a smoker through and through and I feel their pain. It is what it is. Something changed.
If you read the OP, which frames this discussion in terms of rights, there is no doubt that there is a political aspect to this, and it wasn't I who introduced it.

WRT smoking, I am a smoker and I feel their pain. However, I support every legal effort to eliminate smoking.
 

specklebang

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If you read the OP, which frames this discussion in terms of rights, there is no doubt that there is a political aspect to this, and it wasn't I who introduced it.

WRT smoking, I am a smoker and I feel their pain. However, I support every legal effort to eliminate smoking.
OK, I blamed everything on you and you were only partly guilty. Mea ****ing Culpa Hombre.

If you quit for 3 days and get a strong enough E-cig, you'll be smoking happily on a plane just as I did during my trip to MN last week. 3 bad days. Then the angel caresses you. You can do this. I smoked since I was 12. I'm a natural born addict. My willpower is 2 on a scale of 10. Just saying that if a ***** like me can do it, anybody can:)
 

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Since second hand smoke is not only carcinogenic and deadly to non-smokers, but also effects people across property lines, I support every effort to regulate it in a way that discourages smoking in general and promotes clean air. Rights stop at the point that they infringe someone elses, and have a primacy that puts life above everything else; when your right to smoke could even conceivably deny me my right to live, your right stops. I don't like drug laws (libertarian here), but I completely support non-prohibitory regulations that simply discourage smoking or drug use, while still providing a reasonable access to determined users. But, when it comes to actual endangerment over property lines, if a danger can be proved, it needs to be addressed. Nobody has the right to endanger the lives of others. I think smoking rooms with air filters is an acceptable compromise.
 

sangha

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OK, I blamed everything on you and you were only partly guilty. Mea ****ing Culpa Hombre.

If you quit for 3 days and get a strong enough E-cig, you'll be smoking happily on a plane just as I did during my trip to MN last week. 3 bad days. Then the angel caresses you. You can do this. I smoked since I was 12. I'm a natural born addict. My willpower is 2 on a scale of 10. Just saying that if a ***** like me can do it, anybody can:)
Your story is similar to mine. I started when I was 12 too.

Even worse, I once quit cold turkey (albeit with the aid of an alternative) for about 5 years. There's goes my "At least I can excuse my habit on youthful ignorance" excuse!

And I do have a lot of willpower, but not when it comes to tobacco. I just love smoking

However, having said that, I support every and any law against tobacco. If someone proposes a law that lets people stick pins in smokers, that candidate has my vote
 

specklebang

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Your story is similar to mine. I started when I was 12 too.

Even worse, I once quit cold turkey (albeit with the aid of an alternative) for about 5 years. There's goes my "At least I can excuse my habit on youthful ignorance" excuse!

And I do have a lot of willpower, but not when it comes to tobacco. I just love smoking

However, having said that, I support every and any law against tobacco. If someone proposes a law that lets people stick pins in smokers, that candidate has my vote
Yup, I quit for 12 years and for 12 years I was unhappy and used tons of drugs instead. The day I lit a cigarette was the first good day in 4379 days.
 
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