"You don't need an AR15..."

[whysoserious]

I used to live in Charlotte. I still live within an hour of it.

I can see where it came off that I was talking specifically about you when I said that and I can assure you I did not mean for it to.

 

[Goshin]

Well, California has a measure on the ballot to require background checks for buying ammunition; that's a great start.

The instant destruction of errant weapons when seized is another good idea. The trick is to cut out the number of guns in the population and heavily control the distribution of them. Everything should be registered to make it easier to trace stolen weapons in order to find the transport routes. Another good idea is to bust weapons dealers; they sell these things in squirrely deals all over the world and cartels etc can get get on that gravy train very easily.

A lot of this gang BS is cartel controlled, so that's the instant target.

Background checks for firearms haven't helped noticeably... I doubt background checks for ammo will either. Criminals get around that stuff pretty easily.

"cut the number of guns in the population" is a telling remark on your agenda.

 

[TurtleDude]

Show me a proposal to get guns out of criminal hands that might actually work, and not be overly burdensome to the law abiding, and we'll talk. Haven't seen one yet.

they don't have any solutions Goshin, because their real goal is not disarming criminals

 

[whysoserious]

Be honest...have you WATCHED the Crawford video?

Yes. He's holding the gun and swinging it around as you might imagine one would with a toy gun. He's on the phone. Literally not moving. Then all of the sudden, he makes that heisman football move pose, where it looks like he wants to run, and then he's down. The flinch to down is 1 second. I can do screen shots if you want, but it probably would make more sense for you to go view it yourself.

This version here, at the 22 second mark was he not shot at that point? If not, then yes, he was then definitively shot immediately as he turned the corner at the 28 second mark (I thought he was shot twice).

 

[Goshin]

they don't have any solutions Goshin, because their real goal is not disarming criminals

Well, that's true of the leadership. Some of the followers actually believe it is about disarming criminals though. Some may not have thought that through adequately, so I try to fill in the blanks sometimes... some people can be taught, some can't.

 

[TurtleDude]

Goshin, are you for real? Neither Tmair Rice nor John Crawford was given any chance to comply. Neither one would have any idea what the implications of the situation were.

The Tamir Rice video, the door opens and then he's down. There is no frame really between. John Crawford was standing non-chalantly he was confronted, made a move like he was going to run and was shot within a second as well.

I know you're reasonable, Goshin, and reasonable enough to admit that both situations could happen to anyone at anytime. If you aren't expecting someone, police or not, to hop out of a car or come around a corner with a gun in your face, you might flinch.

Flinching gets you shot if you're black in these two cases. But these ****ing people, they can walk around with assault rifles and hate symbols:

View attachment 67207742

^^That's the guy you should be afraid of.

why should I be afraid of a white male with a semi auto rifle. Less than one percent of all murders are perpetrated by someone using ANY KIND OF RIFLES. factor in whites, and the number goes down even further. I doubt someone with a felony record would appear in public, allow to be photographed holding a weapon that causes incontinence in many reporters, unless he was hoping to be in the big house for 10 years ASAP. given the furniture on his rifle, that appears to be a century arms AK with TAPCO stock and a TAPCO magazine. Chance of it being a real assault rifle-less than .00001%

 

[Goshin]

Yes. He's holding the gun and swinging it around as you might imagine one would with a toy gun. He's on the phone. Literally not moving. Then all of the sudden, he makes that heisman football move pose, where it looks like he wants to run, and then he's down. The flinch to down is 1 second. I can do screen shots if you want, but it probably would make more sense for you to go view it yourself.

This version here, at the 22 second mark was he not shot at that point? If not, then yes, he was then definitively shot immediately as he turned the corner at the 28 second mark (I thought he was shot twice).

No offense, but don't become a street cop. Especially not anywhere with a high crime rate. You probably would not survive your first encounter with an armed criminal.

 

[TurtleDude]

Background checks for firearms haven't helped noticeably... I doubt background checks for ammo will either. Criminals get around that stuff pretty easily.

"cut the number of guns in the population" is a telling remark on your agenda.

its the mantra of the gun banners.

 

[whysoserious]

He isn't pointing the weapon at anyone. That kind of makes a substantial difference. In my book anyway.


Yes I'm quite real. When we were originally discussing the Tamir Rice incident, I was somewhat critical of police response until I was fully informed and watched the video. They'd been told he had been scaring people pointing what may or may not have been a real gun at people for some time. On approach he reached for the object that the officers could not be sure was or was not a real gun, but looked a LOT like one. They reacted accordingly.


I can't really say I would have done any differently under the exact same circumstances. If a big 12yo that had supposedly been pointing a maybe-gun at people reached for it in my presence I probably would shoot him too. I'd probably feel terrible about it afterward on learning that it was just an airsoft BB gun, and would spend a lot of time over the coming years second guessing myself and wondering "what if I'd done this, what if I'd done that"... but half-measures when it looks like someone is drawing down on you tend to get you killed.


It's sad but it is what it is, and it came about as a result of the decedents own actions.

How can you be sure he was reaching for it? It's hard to say exactly what anyone would do when a gun is drawn on them out of nowhere with no warning. FYI - John Crawford didn't point a gun at anyone.

There is no better way to handle these situations? I find it unsettling that I can be a threat because someone calls me in as one, and then if I don't exact reaction within 1.2 seconds of seeing a gun in my face, then I'm a dead man. That's not acceptable policing to me.

 

[whysoserious]

why should I be afraid of a white male with a semi auto rifle. Less than one percent of all murders are perpetrated by someone using ANY KIND OF RIFLES. factor in whites, and the number goes down even further. I doubt someone with a felony record would appear in public, allow to be photographed holding a weapon that causes incontinence in many reporters, unless he was hoping to be in the big house for 10 years ASAP. given the furniture on his rifle, that appears to be a century arms AK with TAPCO stock and a TAPCO magazine. Chance of it being a real assault rifle-less than .00001%

Why would you be afraid of a black man with a toy gun in Walmart? Or a kid with a toy gun? I don't see how in either of those situations you are any less likely to get shot by that asshole - even if it's just because that dumb redneck forgot to put the safety on and accidentally popped off a few rounds.

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, that's true of the leadership. Some of the followers actually believe it is about disarming criminals though. Some may not have thought that through adequately, so I try to fill in the blanks sometimes... some people can be taught, some can't.

we agree completely. I think when you deal with people who are hard core political junkies who post on boards like this, you aren't dealing with low wattage, low information sheeple though there are a few posters, that appear to ME, bash guns just because they don't like the politics of gun owners. and there might be a few people on this board who buy into the belief that restricting honest people will somehow have a collateral diminution of armed criminals

 

[whysoserious]

No offense, but don't become a street cop. Especially not anywhere with a high crime rate. You probably would not survive your first encounter with an armed criminal.

None taken - I certain agree that it's an almost impossible job that probably very few people can actually do properly.

 

[TurtleDude]

Why would you be afraid of a black man with a toy gun in Walmart? Or a kid with a toy gun? I don't see how in either of those situations you are any less likely to get shot by that asshole - even if it's just because that dumb redneck forgot to put the safety on and accidentally popped off a few rounds.

I wasn't, if you do some research, you will see me calling for charges against the idiot who called the cops and claimed a black man was THREATENING people with a rifle.

the number of accidental shootings continue to go down and like it or not, that guy appears to know how to handle his rifle. people don't pop off A FEW ROUNDS, in an AD

 

[Bob N]

You saw what you want to see. Which part did you miss? Him pointing the gun at strangers in the public park or him jumping up and reaching for the gun?

I know that I saw some kid playing with a bb gun in a park, and some law enforcement officers pull up like a cheetah with it's tail on fire and shoot the kid, and then the officer reporting that he had just shot a 20-some year old male; he wasn't 20-something. :roll:

 

[Goshin]

How can you be sure he was reaching for it? It's hard to say exactly what anyone would do when a gun is drawn on them out of nowhere with no warning. FYI - John Crawford didn't point a gun at anyone.

There is no better way to handle these situations? I find it unsettling that I can be a threat because someone calls me in as one, and then if I don't exact reaction within 1.2 seconds of seeing a gun in my face, then I'm a dead man. That's not acceptable policing to me.

I've been a cop, and I've been an armed civilian who has interacted with the police as such on many occasions.


The keys to surviving a police encounter while armed are:
Don't reach for the weapon.
Don't make any sudden moves.
Don't do anything that looks aggressive.
Comply with police orders promptly.


When my son started driving and going out on his own, I made sure he understood all this. He's going to be getting his carry permit soon (turns 21 in December) and we've had several serious discussions about the responsibility he will be taking on, and the things he needs to be careful about.


Here's a common sense rule that I taught him that would probably have saved Tamir Rice and Crawford... "Don't frighten or startle an armed man."

It's just not a good idea, period.... that goes double if he's a cop, and triple if he's looking at you as a potential threat.



In every encounter with police where I've been armed, I've operated on the assumption that they are nervous and twitchy and done my best to reassure them that I was not a threat. I carefully made sure I did not reach for a weapon or appear to be reaching for one. I didn't reach for ANY DAMN THING until I had their permission to do so and had informed them what I was going to reach for and where it was (ie license and registration in the glove box for instance). I adopted a polite and passive manner to reassure them and de-escalate.

Some of these encounters were under... let's say special circumstances. I've done jobs as a civilian that involved security or private investigative work, and I have encountered police officers under conditions where they had reason to suspect me at first, until all was explained.


I'm still here because I practiced that simple adage.... don't scare an armed man.

 

[jet57]

Background checks for firearms haven't helped noticeably... I doubt background checks for ammo will either. Criminals get around that stuff pretty easily.

"cut the number of guns in the population" is a telling remark on your agenda.

Well, number one, we're not tough enough about background checks and gang members buy from the black market: that's where the thinning out needs to happen. So, I have no anti gun agenda whatsoever, it's a safer street agenda.

You're projecting again.

 

[whysoserious]

I wasn't, if you do some research, you will see me calling for charges against the idiot who called the cops and claimed a black man was THREATENING people with a rifle.

the number of accidental shootings continue to go down and like it or not, that guy appears to know how to handle his rifle. people don't pop off A FEW ROUNDS, in an AD

You never pulled of a desk pop in the office?

 

[TurtleDude]

You never pulled of a desk pop in the office?

explain, I don't understand what you are asking

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, number one, we're not tough enough about background checks and gang members buy from the black market: that's where the thinning out needs to happen. So, I have no anti gun agenda whatsoever, it's a safer street agenda.

You're projecting again.

so tell us Jet, how do you enforce UBGC without registration

and since the Clinton DOJ claimed that over 100K felons were stopped from buying guns by the background check and less than 15 were even charged for lying on the 4473 (for those who don't buy guns, if YOU ADMIT you are a felon or a fugitive etc, a background check is not executed, rather the clerk says SORRY you cannot buy a gun), its a waste of money

NOW if the DOJ or state DAs charged every single person PROPERLY denied after a NICS check with perjury and ATTEMPT to obtain a firearm in violation of 18 USC 922 et sell, then I bet it would have cut down on some violent crime though I doubt most of those denied were hard core criminals looking to commit murder and mayhem. Lots of those denied were people who had decades old F4s such as dope possession, passing bad checks etc

 

[Goshin]

Well, number one, we're not tough enough about background checks and gang members buy from the black market: that's where the thinning out needs to happen. So, I have no anti gun agenda whatsoever, it's a safer street agenda.

You're projecting again.

Mmm, no, I'm not. You've made it clear enough in other discussions where you stand: you own guns but frequently disparage most other gun owners and only rarely find a proposed gun control measure you dislike or have issue with. Frankly you come across as a fairly typical elitist: you want guns for yourself and maybe your fellow travelers but not for Joe Average.

Possibly I misjudge, but that is how you do present according to your views.


So, we're not tough enough on background checks and the black market, and that's where the thinning needs to occur. Well, believe it or not I agree at least in part: the "black market" is where the big problem is as far as criminals arming themselves. How do you propose we go about "thinning" the black market?

 

[whysoserious]

explain, I don't understand what you are asking

Ah sorry.

 

[TurtleDude]

Ah sorry.

we call them ADs. never heard of one in my office or the FBI's but I had to defend a cop who shot one of his friends in a smaller cities' PD HQ. Long story-he claimed self defense, it was a F Up where he grabbed a gun he thought was unloaded (had two) but it was full

cost a guy his life

 

[VanceMack]

Yes. He's holding the gun and swinging it around as you might imagine one would with a toy gun. He's on the phone. Literally not moving. Then all of the sudden, he makes that heisman football move pose, where it looks like he wants to run, and then he's down. The flinch to down is 1 second. I can do screen shots if you want, but it probably would make more sense for you to go view it yourself.

This version here, at the 22 second mark was he not shot at that point? If not, then yes, he was then definitively shot immediately as he turned the corner at the 28 second mark (I thought he was shot twice).

Yes. He was shot as he was diving BACK towards the gun at 28. We agree. SO again...NOT an incident of a typical law abiding citizen shot legally carrying a concealed weapon. Correct? Thats why offering those 2 examples were such huge piles of fail in the first place.

And I probably missed where you posted the crimes committed by those white guys you think should have been shot. Can you repost it?

 

[VanceMack]

I know that I saw some kid playing with a bb gun in a park, and some law enforcement officers pull up like a cheetah with it's tail on fire and shoot the kid, and then the officer reporting that he had just shot a 20-some year old male; he wasn't 20-something. :roll:

I know that even now you ignore the facts. Thats what happens when you are desperate to try to make a ridiculous argument and make the evidence fit the argument.

 

[jet57]

Mmm, no, I'm not. You've made it clear enough in other discussions where you stand: you own guns but frequently disparage most other gun owners and only rarely find a proposed gun control measure you dislike or have issue with. Frankly you come across as a fairly typical elitist: you want guns for yourself and maybe your fellow travelers but not for Joe Average.

Possibly I misjudge, but that is how you do present according to your views.


So, we're not tough enough on background checks and the black market, and that's where the thinning needs to occur. Well, believe it or not I agree at least in part: the "black market" is where the big problem is as far as criminals arming themselves. How do you propose we go about "thinning" the black market?

We agree on the black market. Good, because that's where my energies on the gun issue really go.

As for disparaging others: I only have a disrespect for those "my way or the highway, you're a bannerhoid" types. They are the elitists; they put their version of patriotism and the the holy grail of the second amendment before any and all other considerations. These people tend to show anti social traits that make them combative rather than objective and logical: they argue from emotion rather than reality. We seem all over the gun threads, and we know who they are.

Certain military weapons etc are withheld / banned from public sale for very good reasons. If you don't believe me, look at Syria. We cannot have "factions" going to war with each other in that effect. We cannot have gangs going to war with police and with each other and a black market that includes everything under the sun, so that certain "law abiding citizens" can observe their rights under the second amendment: THAT is a fallacious and subversive argument that violates the general welfare clause, and as an American citizen, I deserve a stress free neighborhood and safe streets.