You Can't Stand Up to China While You're Running a Huge National Debt.

[LowDown]

Or at least Obama said so. In 2008.



I suspect that China knows it, too.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Hard for Obama to "stand up" to China when he's always bowing before them.

 

[saveUS222]

Interesting tidbit I learned recently. We owe ourselves more than we owe China, and that makes me more angry than us owing China as much as I thought.



Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)

Who owns America? Hint: It's not China – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

 

[poweRob]

I don't see why not... They don't buy much of our stuff but they sell to us. They manipulate their currency. We abide by the WTO and not tarrif their **** quite like they tariff ours. Seems like they need us more than we do them.

Seems to me that China and those in our country who support trade policies that don't let us tariff goods coming from countries with unfair trade practices are exactly the ones to stand up to.

 

[RDS]

Thats in 2008. China is heading for a steep slowdown now.

 

[poweRob]

Thats in 2008. China is heading for a steep slowdown now.

Very true. I also wonder the political implications of their growth dying down and how desperate they may get to retain power over their people. Nothing starts an upheaval quite like a really bad economic downturn... all while they seem to have a democratic movement always bubbling just under the surface.

Big things coming in the near future over there. Could be good... could be another Tiananmen Square.

 

[RDS]

Very true. I also wonder the political implications of their growth dying down and how desperate they may get to retain power over their people. Nothing starts an upheaval quite like a really bad economic downturn... all while they seem to have a democratic movement always bubbling just under the surface.

Big things coming in the near future over there. Could be good... could be another Tiananmen Square.

They rule harder than an iron fist now.

 

[poweRob]

They rule harder than an iron fist now.

That's the thing... there wasn't a need for the iron fist when things were growing at an astronomical rate. As long as they were buying bigger houses, another car and had a great tv to look at, the less they had to worry about the people revolting. Now they do... or they will. I saw a show on Tiananmen Square and how that went down. They had a guy in the government that was on their side, the other officials marginalized him and basically removed him then made the decision to slaughter. Terrible stuff.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

They rule harder than an iron fist now.

Um, as compared to the 70's? No, not even close, they are experiencing a huge shift to urbanization....and as the old saying goes, how you going to keep them down on the farm......?

 

[specklebang]

We sell them $100-billion and they sell us $400-billion. An imbalance of $300-billion.

If we stopped trading with them, I think we'd have our own economic melt-down. Much of what they make is far too difficult to produce in the US at anything resembling a realistic price.

My theory is that once you win the Presidency, the real owners of America pay you a visit and tell you how certain things are. Everybody in living memory talks about simpolifying the tax codes. Well worn talking point good for a fw audiences and a debate. But they NEVER do ANYTHING about it. Now, why do you suppose that is?

Based on the figures in the table, seems like SS isn't broke after all. It sure needs to be fixed (yeah, right) but hardly out of money.

Interesting tidbit I learned recently. We owe ourselves more than we owe China, and that makes me more angry than us owing China as much as I thought.



Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)

Who owns America? Hint: It's not China – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

I don't see why not... They don't buy much of our stuff but they sell to us. They manipulate their currency. We abide by the WTO and not tarrif their **** quite like they tariff ours. Seems like they need us more than we do them.

Seems to me that China and those in our country who support trade policies that don't let us tariff goods coming from countries with unfair trade practices are exactly the ones to stand up to.

 

[poweRob]

We sell them $100-billion and they sell us $400-billion. An imbalance of $300-billion.

If we stopped trading with them, I think we'd have our own economic melt-down. Much of what they make is far too difficult to produce in the US at anything resembling a realistic price.

My theory is that once you win the Presidency, the real owners of America pay you a visit and tell you how certain things are. Everybody in living memory talks about simpolifying the tax codes. Well worn talking point good for a fw audiences and a debate. But they NEVER do ANYTHING about it. Now, why do you suppose that is?

Based on the figures in the table, seems like SS isn't broke after all. It sure needs to be fixed (yeah, right) but hardly out of money.

I don't think we should stop trading with them. I think we should simply rule out free trade and go with fair trade to balance it out rather than keep existing at the short end of the trading stick while wondering why we are getting screwed so badly.

 

[RDS]

Um, as compared to the 70's? No, not even close, they are experiencing a huge shift to urbanization....and as the old saying goes, how you going to keep them down on the farm......?

I think it's like the 70s. You can tell from their agressiveness with Japan now. Their relationship is in tatters over a small island. Some 1000 chinese fishing boats escorted by chinese armed vessels are heading for the island now.

 

[poweRob]

I think it's like the 70s. You can tell from their agressiveness with Japan now. Their relationship is in tatters over a small island. Some 1000 chinese fishing boats escorted by chinese armed vessels are heading for the island now.

And the phillipines too. They are doing a territorial war of words over the sea south of China and I think west of the phillipines.

 

[RDS]

And the phillipines too. They are doing a territorial war of words over the sea south of China and I think west of the phillipines.

Yeah the Spartly Islands but USA is providing some cover for the Phillipines.

 

[poweRob]

Yeah the Spartly Islands but USA is providing some cover for the Phillipines.

How long before Taiwan becomes a massive issue between them and us again I wonder.

 

[iguanaman]

Very true. I also wonder the political implications of their growth dying down and how desperate they may get to retain power over their people. Nothing starts an upheaval quite like a really bad economic downturn... all while they seem to have a democratic movement always bubbling just under the surface.

Big things coming in the near future over there. Could be good... could be another Tiananmen Square.

I read an article about China that said that the Govt. has decided that the best way to appease the people is to follow the path that America did after WWII. They determined that that period produced the highest proportion of happy satisfied citizens. That why there is a space program and massive road and infrastructure building. Unions are being allowed and wages are increasing because they are planning on selling everyone cars to fill up those roads too. Of course what will be missing is a Democratic society, but they are hoping everyone will be so "happy" they won't notice. It sounds crazy but it just might work.

 

[poweRob]

I read an article about China that said that the Govt. has decided that the best way to appease the people is to follow the path that America did after WWII. They determined that that period produced the highest proportion of happy satisfied citizens. That why there is a space program and massive road and infrastructure building. Unions are being allowed and wages are increasing because they are planning on selling everyone cars to fill up those roads too. Of course what will be missing is a Demcratic society, but they are hoping everyone will be so "happy" they won't notice. It sounds crazy but it just might work.

I doubt it... back then we had the great economic advantage of the entire industrialized world not only being demolished which eliminated our competition but they were also dependent upon much of our manufacturing to help rebuild them.

 

[Aberration]

I don't see why not... They don't buy much of our stuff but they sell to us. They manipulate their currency. We abide by the WTO and not tarrif their **** quite like they tariff ours. Seems like they need us more than we do them.

Seems to me that China and those in our country who support trade policies that don't let us tariff goods coming from countries with unfair trade practices are exactly the ones to stand up to.

The proper approach, IMO, is to not single China out. Our policy of tariffs should be based on objective measures, like currency manipulation, and not having equal environmental and personal protections.

 

[poweRob]

The proper approach, IMO, is to not single China out. Our policy of tariffs should be based on objective measures, like currency manipulation, and not having equal environmental and personal protections.

Absofreegin'lutely

 

[shiang]

Interesting tidbit I learned recently. We owe ourselves more than we owe China, and that makes me more angry than us owing China as much as I thought.



Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)

Who owns America? Hint: It's not China – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

I was aware most of our debt is ironically to our selves, nice to see the actual numbers.

 

[specklebang]

Can you give me an example of "fair trade"? How would that work? Better yet, why aren't we doing it now (or ever before)?

I don't think we should stop trading with them. I think we should simply rule out free trade and go with fair trade to balance it out rather than keep existing at the short end of the trading stick while wondering why we are getting screwed so badly.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I think it's like the 70s. You can tell from their agressiveness with Japan now. Their relationship is in tatters over a small island. Some 1000 chinese fishing boats escorted by chinese armed vessels are heading for the island now.

you have shifted your own argument from domestic population controls (which you can't seem to acknowledge that they have let the "genie out of the bottle" as compared to the "re-education", anti-capitalist recent past) to their foreign relations. Let me give you a hint: Chine still holds a lot of animosity towards Japan. Their relation to Japan has not been good since 1938. China has been aggressive towards Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam and Russia, border disputes with their neighbors has been a near constant in this and the last century.

 

[shiang]

I think this anti Chinese/Russian sentiment in it self is going to lead to problems and impede objective decision making. Isolationism is never the way to go.

This reminds me a little of the "evil Russians" portrait in the cold war. While we need to assert the fact that we will protect our interests we also need to show that we'r willing to bargain a give a little to our trading partners from time to time.

Low tariffs (tax on imported goods) is generally a great policy for open trade. If China wants to raise tariffs and isolate their market that's their loss.

Truth is, at US request, the exchange rate between the dollar and the yuan has been significantly changed.

In 2,000 the rate was about 8.5 yuan: 1 dollar
Today the exchange rate is about 6.3 yuan: 1 dollar

Chinese Yuan/US Dollar Daily Exchange Rate, 2000-2011 | China Global Trade

The gap in PPP (purchasing power parity) is actually a much greater problem in countries like India. PPP btw is the difference in how much of the same goods you can buy with a single dollar depending on which part of the world your spending it at. GDP Per Capita (average salary) adjusted for PPP (how much you can buy per dollar) btw is essentially an estimate for the quality of life.

Purchasing power parity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Change in manufacturing jobs is not necessarily a bad sign, as it is a sign we'r shifting into a more advanced industry. Developments generally go in this order:

Agricultural -> industrial/manufacturing -> Design/Service

We'r still leading the way and China is still "catching up" and a full phase behind.

On a national level our debt is blown way out of proportion by the media. I keep saying this but our annual GDP is 15 trillion and that's our total international debt. This also doesn't take into account the debt other countries might owe us, which makes the net debt even lower.

 

[Fisher]

With so many US companies building plants in China, it really is impossible to know what effect an economic showdown might have.

 

[RDS]

You can stop trading with china and switch to patriotism but can you pay the price?

"Made In The USA" Now Costs $178 At Levi's - Business Insider