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You can’t be a good Christian and a good Democrat

Grand Mal said:
Homosexuality is mentioned in Leviticus, along with a bunch of other proscriptions that are considered by Christians to be no longer applicable or to only apply to Jews, and in the Epistles, written by that old sinner Paul whose opinion is worth no more than yours or mine.
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In specifically, it is mentioned in two places. Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. If you look at the commentary, Leviticus 20:13 is specifically talking about 'penetration' (i won't get any more specific than that), Because of the context of Leviticus 18:22, a case has been made that this is dealing with the temple prostitution that was used by the worshipers of Moloch.

I will also point out in the Jewish scriptures, it is the male to male sexual relationships that are addressed (and argued about), and lesbian relationships are not mentioned at all. The orthodox disapprove of it, based on the more vague passages about 'sexual immorality' but it is not specifically addressed.
 
blackjack50 said:
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”
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I see no references there, so the entire rant is opinion, without it appears, a shred of research. Therefore I can't comment on what is supposedly happening.

I do however see a resistance to ANY kind of faith in the US. And it is my opinion that for too long, politicians have worn their faith as a badge on an equal footing as patriotism. Which is horse**** and, in my view a violation of the intent of the first amendment; the way I and many political scientists agree the wording also protects individuals FROM religion, and should.

There is also the observable link between the extreme right and extreme "Christian" asserting "family values", waging war on abortion and Muslims in the same breath, who believe God wants them to be wealthy and powerful, which is also horse****. It becomes an absolute comedy when they get outed as just another homosexual underneath, or a "wayward husband".

There is no such thing as a "good Christian". I sin. a lot. So I have no business judging others. In fact, there was this humble carpenter who said as much 2,000 years ago.

In the end a "good Christian" would decline the fame, and only serve in anonymity and poverty.
 
 
blackjack50 said:
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”
Click to expand...

There's smething wrong with folks who yearn to be either, pass on all of the above.
 
Fearandloathing said:
I see no references there, so the entire rant is opinion, without it appears, a shred of research. Therefore I can't comment on what is supposedly happening.

I do however see a resistance to ANY kind of faith in the US. And it is my opinion that for too long, politicians have worn their faith as a badge on an equal footing as patriotism. Which is horse**** and, in my view a violation of the intent of the first amendment; the way I and many political scientists agree the wording also protects individuals FROM religion, and should.

There is also the observable link between the extreme right and extreme "Christian" asserting "family values", waging war on abortion and Muslims in the same breath, who believe God wants them to be wealthy and powerful, which is also horse****. It becomes an absolute comedy when they get outed as just another homosexual underneath, or a "wayward husband".




There is no such thing as a "good Christian". I sin. a lot. So I have no business judging others. In fact, there was this humble carpenter who said as much 2,000 years ago.

In the end a "good Christian" would decline the fame, and only serve in anonymity and poverty.
Click to expand...

True religion, I believe, begins in doubt and continues in spiritual exploration. Debased religion begins in fear and terminates in certainty.

I believe religion rather than politics may provide that answer. One of the most important shifts in our culture has been the transformation of politics into a kind of civic religion. Religion has always provided a sense of identity — hence the tribalism — but it provided something else, too; something even more fundamental. In what historian Karen Armstrong describes as the Axial Age, from which modern religions grew, it pointed the way to a meaningful life with spiritual values. That was for nurturing the soul. And it provided a cosmology, a systematic way of thinking about and explaining the world and our place in it. That was for the mind.

I have written previously about how conservatism turned itself into a civic religion, which I think is one of the affinities between evangelicalism and conservatism — not just that they share some values, but that they share the very idea of orthodoxy. Armstrong describes in a religious context how the Axial Age lost its spiritualism to dogma. This is especially relevant in a complex, ever-churning world that seems to outrun our capacity to understand it. True religion, I believe, begins in doubt and continues in spiritual exploration. Debased religion begins in fear and terminates in certainty.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trump-era-wont-pass-without-serious-damage-america/
 
blackjack50 said:
Why? I think the Democrat Party has introduced an atmosphere of religion second to their party. It is certainly a common mentality of younger ages too. There is absolutely a stigma the left has attached to being a Christian.
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Well, you have a point. That stigma applies to all faiths, though. Why should the act of belief in the local version of mumbo jumbo NOT carry a stigma?

The religious claim thay aren't respected but why should any thinking person give carte blanc respect to ANY belief, especially supernatural ones? The truth is, I feel disrespected every time I'm expected to play along with someone's fantasy, whether they are liberal or not.

I want very much for people to be able to peacefully coexist. However, I fear that our kind has evolved some habits, magical thinking being one of them, that ultimately threatens peace. I could never believe any of the dogma of religion OR the claim that it is a harmless way to view our shared reality. The tennets of faith vary but its self-proclaimed benefit doesn't.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the religious have spent much more time on PR than they have product development. If they got the respect their ideas and history of action truly deserved, it might be enough to encourage a change. As it is, they are still operating upon a system of rewards and punishments invented to control minds, not open them.
 
Fenton Lum said:

True religion, I believe, begins in doubt and continues in spiritual exploration. Debased religion begins in fear and terminates in certainty.

I believe religion rather than politics may provide that answer. One of the most important shifts in our culture has been the transformation of politics into a kind of civic religion. Religion has always provided a sense of identity — hence the tribalism — but it provided something else, too; something even more fundamental. In what historian Karen Armstrong describes as the Axial Age, from which modern religions grew, it pointed the way to a meaningful life with spiritual values. That was for nurturing the soul. And it provided a cosmology, a systematic way of thinking about and explaining the world and our place in it. That was for the mind.

I have written previously about how conservatism turned itself into a civic religion, which I think is one of the affinities between evangelicalism and conservatism — not just that they share some values, but that they share the very idea of orthodoxy. Armstrong describes in a religious context how the Axial Age lost its spiritualism to dogma. This is especially relevant in a complex, ever-churning world that seems to outrun our capacity to understand it. True religion, I believe, begins in doubt and continues in spiritual exploration. Debased religion begins in fear and terminates in certainty.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trump-era-wont-pass-without-serious-damage-america/
Click to expand...



When you say religion I hear church. Church is a mean by which one group can gain control of another and maintain it by fear.

Faith is a question, not a "belief" a search for conscious contact with a power grater than oneself, which/who can be defined many ways. The God of my understanding took a whip to religion in "my Father's house" and told everyone "test everything, you will have many false prophets among you."

He also said "I am the only way to the Father" which tells me there is no middle man, no exploiter in the middle willing to "grant" forgiveness for some silver.

I have been a member, sometimes been an elder in many churches and have yet to find one that does not peddle differences of some kind, rich or poor, black or white, Baptist South or Canadian Baptist; all create boundaries while in my heart I 'feel' God's pain in our wars and petty differences; the carpenter gave us but one command: "love one another".
 
roguenuke said:
There is no evidence that God has destroyed any place due to homosexuality either. Despite what some Christians believe, Sodom was not destroyed due to homosexuality.
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In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - Jude 7
 
blackjack50 said:
Why? I think the Democrat Party has introduced an atmosphere of religion second to their party. It is certainly a common mentality of younger ages too. There is absolutely a stigma the left has attached to being a Christian.
Click to expand...

Well first, the word is Democratic. "Democrat" as in 'Democrat Party' is a pejorative started during the GW administration and people who use it, frankly, look ignorant. They don't want to associate the word "democratic" with the party is all that is; it's cheap shot.

There certainly is no stigma. I think what you're seeing is a distancing from evangelical right-wing Christianity, which is a political faction, and I think that the Dems are right on the money to do that and not be in your face with religion of any kind.
 
Logicman said:
I don't think God and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah would agree with you.



And never in a good light.



Why do you defend the practice when God says it's an abomination?



The Bible is perfectly clear that gay sex is a sin and an abomination. There's nothing subjective about that.



You still haven't answered the question: Why do you defend and support that which God describes as an abomination and a sin?

Also, unless they repent, they will perish (Luke 13:3).
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Please do not preach to me, and do not quote scripture to me. I promise you that it is not necessary.

And :lol: at how you dodged my comment. Clearly, you are hung up on homosexuality, and not all the other "baddies" that are mentioned in the Bible, so I will leave you to your homophobia, as nothing I say regarding the issue will set well with you.

When you can explain to me how homosexuality is so much worse than everything else I mentioned, then we can revisit this conversation. Until then, I'm not interested in discussing your ability to cherry pick the Bible.

Just in case you've forgotten, there was only one Man free from sin, and he died a long, long time ago. For you. For me. For those pesky gay people you seem to have such a problem with. He died for all of us.
 
jet57 said:
Well first, the word is Democratic. "Democrat" as in 'Democrat Party' is a pejorative started during the GW administration and people who use it, frankly, look ignorant. They don't want to associate the word "democratic" with the party is all that is; it's cheap shot.

There certainly is no stigma. I think what you're seeing is a distancing from evangelical right-wing Christianity, which is a political faction, and I think that the Dems are right on the money to do that and not be in your face with religion of any kind.
Click to expand...

Okay, then that would make even the Party itself ignorant. Their website says "Democrats". In fact it is "my.democrats.org".

my.democrats.org | Say You're Ready to Fight Back

They can and do embrace both.
 
blackjack50 said:
Why? I think the Democrat Party has introduced an atmosphere of religion second to their party. It is certainly a common mentality of younger ages too. There is absolutely a stigma the left has attached to being a Christian.
Click to expand...


What a quaint and delusional lie. Hard to be taken seriously with such paranoid dishonesty.
 
Superfly said:
Please do not preach to me, and do not quote scripture to me. I promise you that it is not necessary.

And :lol: at how you dodged my comment. Clearly, you are hung up on homosexuality, and not all the other "baddies" that are mentioned in the Bible, so I will leave you to your homophobia, as nothing I say regarding the issue will set well with you.

When you can explain to me how homosexuality is so much worse than everything else I mentioned, then we can revisit this conversation. Until then, I'm not interested in discussing your ability to cherry pick the Bible.

Just in case you've forgotten, there was only one Man free from sin, and he died a long, long time ago. For you. For me. For those pesky gay people you seem to have such a problem with. He died for all of us.
Click to expand...

So, you can't justify your pro-gay position, except to say, "Well, other people sin too...."

Way to kick God's Word to the curb in favor of your subjective moral relativism.

Reminds me of the scripture: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." - 2 Timothy 4:3
 
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jet57 said:
:roll:

"Democrats" is plural dude. "My Democrats" is possessive.

jeez
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It really isn't a big deal. Out of everything to complain about, complaining about what the Party is technically called or what those in the Party are called is petty.
 
Logicman said:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - Jude 7
Click to expand...

That sexual immorality being adultery and raping of visitors to establish dominance over them. It had absolutely zero to do with homosexuality. Even your own passage does not specifically say because they were gay or anything else like that. That is your personal interpretation, you subjectively inferring what that passage is about. The stories in Judaism, which describe the actual cities talk of this. Knowledge of history tells the problem. The only reason that some Christians believe otherwise is because a) they were told that is what it means by ignorant church leaders who b) incorrectly take Paul's word as infallible. Paul is human. They make mistakes too.
 
roguenuke said:
It really isn't a big deal. Out of everything to complain about, complaining about what the Party is technically called or what those in the Party are called is petty.
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I kinda think it is a big deal because it speaks to the disrespect that is outright hostility that has us where we are today. I use the word Republican and if I'm speaking of the fringe I use right-wing, or far right with respect to people like Steve Bannon.

The Democratic Party is what it has always been, with a Democratic majority, or a majority of 240 Democrats.

So I just like to remind such people of their ignorance when I see it; it might help.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
[/b]

What a quaint and delusional lie. Hard to be taken seriously with such paranoid dishonesty.
Click to expand...

I think the reason there appears to be a stigma is that it's hard to maintain conservative values without making the imaginary a part of your life. By default, the most extreme forms of theism find a home on the right where they can all share their revulsion for the future and for science. Conversely, even those free thinkers who maintain a distaste for the shrill, phony liberal advocacy of everyone simultaneously can't align with those on the right that, rather than be shrill advocates, are silently apathetic to the consequences of their magical thinking. There is a fundamental, moral imbalance that you can only see when Jesus steps out of the way.
 
No one here has ever called my Democratic Party affiliation "good".

Bad Lib plus good Jesus is (you know what i'm sayin'?) what I'm saying.
 
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You can't be a good Christian full stop. No Christian in history has ever followed every rule and commandment in the bible.
 
blackjack50 said:
I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”
Click to expand...

IMO, if you believe that the Constitution trumps the Bible, you really cannot be a Republican today.
 
Fearandloathing said:
When you say religion I hear church. Church is a mean by which one group can gain control of another and maintain it by fear.

Faith is a question, not a "belief" a search for conscious contact with a power grater than oneself, which/who can be defined many ways. The God of my understanding took a whip to religion in "my Father's house" and told everyone "test everything, you will have many false prophets among you."

He also said "I am the only way to the Father" which tells me there is no middle man, no exploiter in the middle willing to "grant" forgiveness for some silver.

I have been a member, sometimes been an elder in many churches and have yet to find one that does not peddle differences of some kind, rich or poor, black or white, Baptist South or Canadian Baptist; all create boundaries while in my heart I 'feel' God's pain in our wars and petty differences; the carpenter gave us but one command: "love one another".
Click to expand...

Don't need no power structure for that.
 
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