Women in the Military

[roguenuke]

This may surprise some people, but I am actually against women in combat roles, for now. It is not because of physical abilities, because I am pretty sure that there are women out there who can do the job and more who would work their butts off to try the job.

Actually, I agree with some of the military guys on this, but probably not for the same reasons they do. It is because we currently, due mainly to how our culture views men and women, have different views on how men and women should be treated and how much of our society views the naked body as a purely sexual thing. Many, many men, especially those who are likely to join the military are taught to protect women over other men. And, although I'm sure some men might be able to eventually put such feelings aside for a woman that might be in their group, I doubt all of them would. On the other side of this are those guys who would feel like any women in their units would be "intruding" on their "men's club", even if the woman is clearly pulling her own weight and doing the job just as good as the men are. Some of these guys would never be able to respect a woman in their unit, and especially not one with authority over them. And there are certainly women out there who don't pull their own, yet use there gender to get special privileges or out of work. Unfortunately, thanks to these women, most of the rest of us have to prove that we can do more than our average male counterpart just to be on equal footing with them. The other part of this is the fact that the military's rules on co-ed berthing/showers/heads are not likely to change anytime soon. And it is not just because of the women. There are plenty of men who are not comfortable sharing quarters with women, especially women that they would not be allowed to have any sexual contact with, at least not during the time they would be actually living together in the field.

I think a woman's biology (i.e. monthly cycle, chance of pregnancy) is actually a very small part of the argument against allowing women to serve in combat units. Nowdays, we can easily make it where a woman is very unlikely to get pregnant and not have a monthly period with very minimum risk or adverse health effects to most women. And any woman would have to prove that she could do the exact job that the guys are doing in the combat unit, including all the lifting and expected physical activities.

Since I do believe that it is mostly for social reasons that women (those who could do the job anyway) shouldn't serve right now, I also believe that we could reach a point in the future where women could alongside men with no ill effects on unit effectiveness. And by that time, we may also have made the equipment light enough so that more of both men and women would be physically capable of doing the job.

 

[cpwill]

Okey dokey. But...that assumes the able women would not be worth it because they could not contribute to the success of the infantry.

no, it assumes that the problems caused by women would be greater than the problems solved by women.

for example; women's wider hips give them better platforms from the prone position - giving them a physical advantage in long-distance shooting and making them potential snipers. HOWEVER, our snipers are generally foot-mobile, which means they have to have an impressive upper body strength and stamina in order to haul the supplies they need. SO, women could be generally better snipers, but since they generally also can't get into place, they fail to be a usable asset. the benefit (slightly more stable firing platfom) is outweighed by the cost (you can't get it into position).

 

[Benzin388]

There is no doubt that women have performed courageously and admirably in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. The disappearance of the "front line" has made the battlefield equally dangerous for any type of unit, and thus, females in those "non-combat" units.

First, I don't like the analogy that some have made of pilots (in comparison to Infantry), because I don't think you can really compare the two. I believe a woman should be allowed to pilot any aircraft, because at the end of the day, she doesn't lay her head down with 100 grunts.

To me, this debate is not about ability. Many women have the capability of doing anything a man can do if not out-do. The real issue is about women living with an infantry company in combat on a day to day basis. I will use my own experiences to make this judgment.

In 2007, I was in an infantry company in Iraq, living on a remote outpost (not a FOB). For the first 5 months of combat, we had no females at our outpost. I would regard the company as one of the more disciplined I've served in. After five months, we required additional support to move our troops out to missions. 3 five-ton trucks with female drivers were attached to us. Even though we afforded them their own living space (which wasnt mandatory), problems began almost immediately. All three females started to linger around the platoon bays nightly. They began relationships with NCOs, subverting the chain of command, and were engaged in sexual activity with other lower enlisted Soldiers/Airmen, as well. This caused more than one fist fight. Sex was happening in the outhouses, in the platoon bays and in the vehicles. Adultery was committed on a number of occasions. The staunch discipline we enjoyed prior to their arrival was starting to erode. My commander chose to have them sent back to their support units and "swapped" for male truck drivers. All detrimental effects reversed immediately. We found out later that one of the females became pregnant, and was sent home.

-Later, living on another remote outpost in Iraq during 08-09, the unit i was under had a combat support company attached to it. There were about ten females in this company. We weren't there for a month and the drama began. One female became pregnant. Another committed adultery. Fights between male soldiers erupted over girlfriends. Females were hopping on convoys to other FOBs to have "conjugal visits" with their boyfriends in other units. Then another female became pregnant. Then a female NCO began a relationship with a soldier that worked for her. Eventually, there were sexual assault accusations, he said, she said. And on, and on, and on. It was a mess.

Now this may sound like I am blaming females, I am not. I am blaming the fact that they were living with a predominantly male unit many times on FOB's. There would have been no issues if they weren't there. Of course, there are many answers to this. Some could blame male soldiers for lack of discipline. I know I do. Others would say that both males and females are to blame. Others would blame the chain of command for turning a blind eye and not wanting to do anything about the issues. But one must understand how difficult it is for a male commander to do the finger pointing.

The best environment for female soldiers is to be around other female soldiers. For one, they will have female leadership that can address the issues specifically. If combat MOSs and AFSC's were opened up to females, their numbers in the infantry battalions and combat units would be low, causing situations similar to the ones that I have outlined.

I have served in units that were all male, and others that were mixed. Just based off what I've seen, a female presence in an all-male infantry unit will cause a disruption in discipline, and thus, cause a disruption to combat operations. This is not a matter of females being qualified or unfit to serve; this is a matter of human nature.

As for females in SOF, I would vehemently disagree. The physical requirements are so difficult than in all likelihood, most women would not be able to make it through SOF selection. If and when they did, it would be likely that there would only be a few females in the SOF force and the same problems I've outlined above would occur. Not to mention, the primary mission of SOF is to work with foreign armies and militias. In most cultures that we fight wars in, a female wouldn't be considered a legitimate counterpart by HNF or militia leadership. This is why the army doesn't allow females to be advisors for MiTT teams in Iraq or Afghanistan. A good call, in my opinion.

I re-iterate, this isn't about the ability of females or the fact that they just cant cut it in combat-i know they can. This is about the potential disruption that they will cause in infantry and other all-male units. They (females) may not intend for these disruptions, but it will happen. I've seen it to many times to be naive.

 

[cpwill]

very much exactly what that guy said.

 

[cpgrad08]

very much exactly what that guy said.

I second that.

 

[Tashah]

I re-iterate, this isn't about the ability of females or the fact that they just cant cut it in combat-i know they can. This is about the potential disruption that they will cause in infantry and other all-male units. They (females) may not intend for these disruptions, but it will happen. I've seen it to many times to be naive.

Separate units is the only sensible way to go.

 

[cpgrad08]

 

[American]

He has a point about blacks though. They weren't typically allowed to serve too much (though they did in the Revolution, Civil War, and just about every other war in limited roles).

Let's not turn this thread into something on racism, okay?

 

[American]

Inelegantly put, but there is a point to the special-accomodations thing.

Do we need to just get over gender-segregation in the military, and say pointers and setters use the same fireplug, the same shower, and live in the same barracks? Will that cause problems?

The military Tashah serves in has probably the longest history of utilizing female soldiers in combat, maybe she can weigh in on that aspect.

We had the exact same conversation about women on Navy subs last year.

 

[Gaddaf]

if there are women like these

7 Facts About Gadaffi's Beautiful Virgin Killing Machines: Pics, Videos, Links, News

 

[greenlantern11b]

Women are going to hurt unit cohesion in the Infantry.

Last deployment my Battalion Command Sergeant Major ended up committing suicide due to females.
Some Squad Leaders allowed a female engineer LT to come on a night patrol with us and were doing stupid **** in order to impress her.
If a male squad leader gets someone pregnant he is still able to deploy and continue the mission.
If a male squad leader gets someone pregnant while in theatre, he recieves njp and continues the mission with a lower rank+extra duties.
If a female squad leader gets pregnant she becomes mission incapable and the unit deploys with her ass in the rear
If a female squad leader gets pregnant while in theatre, she recieves njp and gets sent back to the states leaving a gap to fill.


The creators of the Armys new PT test have PURPOSELY left out pullups because they said females were weak.

Cpwill, if you want gender segregated training then go combat arms.

 

[greenlantern11b]

Oh yeah, whats this nonsense about there being no "front lines". OPS/COPS/Infantry FOBS= Front lines.

Jalalabad Air Field and Kandahar Air Field get attacked but they are not front lines.

There's platoons whose entire purpose is to just sit ontop of a mountain(OP Bari-Alai) and wait to be attacked. THOSE guys are front lines. People clearing valleys are frontlines. Not some paper pusher living on a giant FOB with Greenbeans and USO's. I dont care if they may take a mortar round every couple of weeks. That isn't front lines and labeling it as such is disrespectful to those who are.

I leave the wire EVERY ****ING DAY to go to my job, but I am not on the front lines. I do advise and assist BS with the ANA in one of their buidlings. Not frontlines. I could be shot in the back as I worked by some random Afghan soldier. I still wouldn't be in a front line soldier position.


This job sucks and cia has already arrested taliban spies here. im currently working drug deals to make my way back to the line

 

[Krasche]

My point of view is that women on the battlefield would become a distraction for the men, because males are naturally more protective of females than other males. While this might not always be the case, you still have to factor in human nature in debates like these.