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Woman shoots man in gas station.

I'm not talking any specific case because it can happen in any case. Also, looking at your last point, this SYG law further allows a person immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of force.

Yes, that is exactly what it does. It allows a defense and always did EXCEPT in states that passed "duty to surrender and/or runaway, ie duty to be a victim for the common good of all" laws. In response, some states passed laws to make it clear that they were NOT changing the principle. That a person can SYG against a rapist, assailant, kidnapper or murderer. In some states now you can't.

Without SYG, no person should be in public except in a group of people for which at least a couple are much fatter than you, to make certain you can run away faster than they can. That way, it more likely they do their civil duty of being raped, robbed, assaulted or killed.

We MUST not hurt violent criminals! Better to die than hurt a violent criminal.
 
In some states they really should teach running away in school. Have the kids practice. "You're sitting at your chair, and some kid comes along and tell you to get out of it. GO!" Then the teacher would time how fast each student could get out of their chair and run to the nearest phone to call police. The fastest one gets an A. The slowest one gets an F. Of course, there would be no reason for the police to come because no law had been broken due to the student running away and in not illegal to tell someone to get out of their chair.

Then they should test the students on someone at a mock gas station telling the student to slide over from the steering wheel because they are taking the car and kidnapping the student. Any student who hesitates to slide over and go with the person gets an F. BUT if the student DOES slide over, AND also pees and poops in her/his pants, that student gets an A+. In states without SYG, that is legal advise in relation to rapists.
 
Nice red herring. I'm arguing that we don't need the SYG law. It will lead to moral hazard. It will bring about more violence because it allows people that use deadly force to walk away from the fact they took away a human life just because they were provoked. Being provoked is not a good enough reason to kill someone. It is a slippery slope.

It's not a red herring at all. Putting the burden of retreat on someone who is being assaulted is a moral hazard. It will bring about more violence because it actively protects the aggressor. I twist my brain in knots trying to figure out why you think the way you do. It's staring you in the face, waving at you saying "HEY LOOK AT ME, MY NAME IS REASON", yet you don't see it.
 
Yes, that is exactly what it does. It allows a defense and always did EXCEPT in states that passed "duty to surrender and/or runaway, ie duty to be a victim for the common good of all" laws. In response, some states passed laws to make it clear that they were NOT changing the principle. That a person can SYG against a rapist, assailant, kidnapper or murderer. In some states now you can't.

I would like you to name me one state. TIA

The rest of your post is untrue.
 
In some states they really should teach running away in school. Have the kids practice. "You're sitting at your chair, and some kid comes along and tell you to get out of it. GO!" Then the teacher would time how fast each student could get out of their chair and run to the nearest phone to call police. The fastest one gets an A. The slowest one gets an F. Of course, there would be no reason for the police to come because no law had been broken due to the student running away and in not illegal to tell someone to get out of their chair.

Then they should test the students on someone at a mock gas station telling the student to slide over from the steering wheel because they are taking the car and kidnapping the student. Any student who hesitates to slide over and go with the person gets an F. BUT if the student DOES slide over, AND also pees and poops in her/his pants, that student gets an A+. In states without SYG, that is legal advise in relation to rapists.

Your premise is false so the rest of your post is ridiculous.
 
It's not a red herring at all. Putting the burden of retreat on someone who is being assaulted is a moral hazard. It will bring about more violence because it actively protects the aggressor. I twist my brain in knots trying to figure out why you think the way you do. It's staring you in the face, waving at you saying "HEY LOOK AT ME, MY NAME IS REASON", yet you don't see it.

I'm waiting to hear what states allows such a law. If joko can't give me one maybe you can to prove your point. TIA The rest of your post is typical ad hominem used when you can't support your argument
 
Nice red herring. I'm arguing that we don't need the SYG law. It will lead to moral hazard. It will bring about more violence because it allows people that use deadly force to walk away from the fact they took away a human life just because they were provoked. Being provoked is not a good enough reason to kill someone. It is a slippery slope.
Are you arguing that being punched in the face, mounted and continually beaten is "just being provoked"?
 
Are you arguing that being punched in the face, mounted and continually beaten is "just being provoked"?

The other guy was provoked too. He was being followed by another guy with a gun. He could have just as easily used the SYG law against Zim if Zim lost his life.
 
The other guy was provoked too. He was being followed by another guy with a gun. He could have just as easily used the SYG law against Zim if Zim lost his life.
Not true, Trayvon was a minor. His possesing a gun would have been illegal.
And there is no SYG for "being followed" by someone that has not made a threat.
Stop with the "what ifs".
 
Not true, Trayvon was a minor. His possesing a gun would have been illegal.
And there is no SYG for "being followed" by someone that has not made a threat.
Stop with the "what ifs".

Being a minor put him at a disadvantage. I never said there was a SYG for being followed. I did give a clear example of what the law does allow.
 
Being a minor put him at a disadvantage. I never said there was a SYG for being followed. I did give a clear example of what the law does allow.
Seriously. You said "he was being followed by a guy who had a gun".
You really think Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun prior to mounting him and punching him further?
Your contention is Trayvon decided to throw down with a guy that was packing a pistol on purpose?
Total BS. Trayvon found out about that gun when it went bang.
And what disadvantage? He was stronger, younger, in better shape.
 
Seriously. You said "he was being followed by a guy who had a gun".
You really think Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun prior to mounting him and punching him further?
Your contention is Trayvon decided to throw down with a guy that was packing a pistol on purpose?
Total BS. Trayvon found out about that gun when it went bang.
And what disadvantage? He was stronger, younger, in better shape.

Yes, very plausible. Also, so what if he was stronger, younger and in better shape the other coward used a gun.
 
Yes, very plausible. Also, so what if he was stronger, younger and in better shape the other coward used a gun.

So if anyone is in my neighborhood that looks like they may be up to no good. I follow them and call the cops, they have a right to come over and pummel me and I have no right to fight back?
Got it.
 
So if anyone is in my neighborhood that looks like they may be up to no good. I follow them and call the cops, they have a right to come over and pummel me and I have no right to fight back?
Got it.

You don't need to follow them.
 
I know, I was a dumbass. I thought that when you referenced a particular time in the video that you knew what you were talking about. There was no reason for me to do that. It was a faulty assumption that I had no business making. I cannot justify it.
I apologize.
:naughty
I did know what I was talking about.
You didn't.
That specific statement is him clearly speaking about the event. He is pointing out that he had a knife in his hand because don't know and are assuming things about the event that they shouldn't... because he had a knife in his hand. Duh!
 
In my neighborhood of mostly retired older people, I will. We all look out for each other.
Many of them are in their 70s and 80s. I should just turn my back on them?

No, but you also put yourself at risk to be shot for reason of self defense even if you were trying to be helpful.
 
No, but you also put yourself at risk to be shot for reason of self defense even if you were trying to be helpful.
Sorry, but watching someone and or following them while on the phone to the police is not reason for self defense.
But with me, if I follow them. Dang good chance my 1911 will be with me. So they better be quick and they better be willing to go from burglar to murderer in a heart beat.
People like you can "what if" things to death.
 
Sorry, but watching someone and or following them while on the phone to the police is not reason for self defense.
But with me, if I follow them. Dang good chance my 1911 will be with me. So they better be quick and they better be willing to go from burglar to murderer in a heart beat.
People like you can "what if" things to death.

Under Florida law it is and god help that person who may be an innocent person minding his own business and is faced with a man following him with a 1911 and pulls out his own gun for his self defense. You may have two senseless deaths on your hand.

Edit to add: Just replying to your "what ifs"
 
Under Florida law it is and god help that person who may be an innocent person minding his own business and is faced with a man following him with a 1911 and pulls out his own gun for his self defense. You may have two senseless deaths on your hand.

Edit to add: Just replying to your "what ifs"
Approaching someone in my neighborhood is not a reason for them to kill me.
I know how to talk to people and difuse a situation and Iam not going out with my gun in my hand.
They will never know I have it, which is the law, unless they give me no choice.
I have lived where people like to poke and prowl around, never had to shoot anyone. But made myself noticed, and they move on.
Where I live now its not that bad.
 
Our legal system already works under the framework innocence unless proven guilty, so your argument doesn't work. The SYG law does not at all give the one who kills such protection--our legal system does. The SYG law does allow an unarmed victim who does not have to initiate a confrontation and is not on someone's property to be pursued and if that person tries to defend themselves because they feel threatened by being pursued, but in turn, scares the pursuer they can be killed by deadly force and the person who started the pursuit can walk away unless evidence proves otherwise.

SYG doesn't say that at all. Nowhere.

This is just you speculating about what you want to have happened between GZ and TM with NO EVIDENCE to back it up. Then you want him found guilty based upon such hate-based speculations. And finally want it declared that because GZ was found not guilty for lack of evidence to the contrary then the law is a bad law.

Your messages are OUTRAGEOUSLY and deliberately FALSE. You claim that TM was only "scaring" GZ when he smashed his nose knocking to the ground and then was over him beating on him.

CLEARLY then, your view any man can slam you in the face knocking you to the ground and beat on you too. That is the bottomline to what you want made legal. You want anyone who annoys you to be able to beat on you as much as they want - and you want to be able to the same to anyone you want to assault that annoys you too.

Strange too, in the sense of my disagrees. Not to be macho, but for my entire life history including childhood, am a particularly bad ass tough guy. I wouldn't need a gun to hurt or kill someone with only the rarest exception. The only thing that could stop me would be the other person had one. That is not speculation on my part. If the law was as you want it, I would be one of the rulers of the street and essentially everyone should do what ever I want them to do because it illegal for them to defend themselves. If they have to wait until seriously injured it is too late for them to do anything at all - and I could do exactly anything to that person I wanted to no matter how violent, crippling, disfiguring, permanent or lethal.

EXACTLY 100% of cops on this forum understand that criminals don't need a weapon to rape, assault, torture, cripple, disfigure or kill someone. But apparently you want to make it certain that no one who isn't tougher has no way to prevent such victimization. So... explain to me how a 75 year old woman is suppose to be good enough in martial arts to hold off a young man or men?

This constant drumming of "unarmed" is so twisted view Hollywood portrays that no one is really ever hurt in a fight without a weapon and 1 hour later the person is just A-OK.

There was a well circulated video discussed on this forum of a woman tasered by a police officer - not a deadly weapon. She fell, hit her head and permanently in a vegetative coma. You should contact her family and explain to them the doctors are lying to them because it is impossible for someone to be injured merely by the person's head hitting concrete. That it is impossible to hurt or kill someone without a deadly weapon - which is the constant false claim of GZ haters (and I think racists against Latinos as the core of it.)

Oh, and send letters to all legislators explaining how absurd helmets are for motorcyclists and bicyclists - and to the NFL too - to expose the lie that a person can't be hurt in any way that matters by hitting their head on the ground.
 
And surprisingly we've survived many years without them so you can't use no slippery slope without SYG laws. I'm thinking the girl CYA by taking a picture to make it look like she needed to use deadly force. She didn't look like she was scared. She looked the opposite--calm and in control.

Just because I don't like this law does not label me "anti-gun". That is a logical fallacy.

If you'd like to bring up GZ, his head doesn't appear to be "smashed against" the concrete as so many of his supporters keep claiming. He had no concussion. Just falling to the ground could put laceration on your head. But, that is neither here nor there since it doesn't even matter if he had any damage to his head at all. This law has to do with proving that Zimmerman was not acting to defend himself and deadly force is permitted if he perceived his life in danger. How really can anyone disprove this?

Speaking of fallacies, according to the statute, you are incorrect. It's not simply what Zimmerman's perception was, but whether...
"He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

You don't just get to make up a story and get off the charge by saying you were in fear for your life. Whether you believe Zimmerman's injuries constituted grave bodily harm or not, a reasonable person would certainly believe that grave bodily injury is possible by someone banging your head on the concrete. You can be damn certain if a police officer had his head banged on the concrete in a scuffle that the DA would be filing charges of aggravated battery, if not attempted murder. Those are felonies, by the way.
 
Without SYG, what you get is such as a case I've cited before from NYC. A older man had been stabbed in the past by another neighbor. That neighbor, when out of jail for that, told others and the man that he was going to kill that man. And then one day that man came at him holding a weapon. The older man hit him with a steel pipe. It turned out the hit killed the man who had stabbed him previously, told everyone he was going to kill that old man, and was now coming at him with a weapon. Because there was no SYG, that old man was convicted of MURDER. Why? Because the court said he wasn't quite in his apartment yet - so should have run faster to get inside and try to lock the door to keep the attacker out.

THAT is what happens without SYG.

Are you talking about this one? Scary what a court can do to a victim...

People v Aiken (2005 NY Slip Op 02562)
 
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