Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

[Grasshopper121212]

You do know that other believers go to God in prayers and get the same answer you got. Others have claimed that Jesus choose them to rebuild "The Church". What makes you think Smith is not like them. Are signs and wonders like what happened in the first century evident?

I don't have a problem with that either. I actually said as much. But, it doesn't make those Churches have the Priesthood authority. In fact, most of the 40,000 claim no priesthood at all. And, certainly not much order for ordinations either. I also know that Satan is in this world to destroy all things of God including establishing churches that fight against Jesus Christ's church. Also, Satan enjoys distracting people from knowing about the fulness of the Gospel's ordinances such as for those who have died without the Gospel, which is 99.9% of the people. I once wrote a paper at BYU on this subject and found an old Catholic Encyclopedia that had a short statement about 1Cor. 15:29 and baptisms for the dead. It said that their Church once performed the ordinances but had lost the mode of how to do it and so they no longer teach it or do it. They have Halloween instead. All souls day but no ordinance for the actual baptism of the dead.

 

[Overitall]

I don't have a problem with that either. I actually said as much. But, it doesn't make those Churches have the Priesthood authority.

How is this "Priesthood" determined?

In fact, most of the 40,000 claim no priesthood at all. And, certainly not much order for ordinations either. I also know that Satan is in this world to destroy all things of God including establishing churches that fight against Jesus Christ's church.

That would be only the Mormon church, right?

Also, Satan enjoys distracting people from knowing about the fulness of the Gospel's ordinances such as for those who have died without the Gospel, which is 99.9% of the people. I once wrote a paper at BYU on this subject and found an old Catholic Encyclopedia that had a short statement about 1Cor. 15:29 and baptisms for the dead. It said that their Church once performed the ordinances but had lost the mode of how to do it and so they no longer teach it or do it. They have Halloween instead. All souls day but no ordinance for the actual baptism of the dead.

Do you observe any holidays?

Just so you know. You are not the first time I've come across believers claiming a special dispensation from God to reestablish "The Church". Although one of them were showing signs and wonders. A question you didn't answer.

 

[Schism]

My wife and I equal each other out in that we both have strengths and weaknesses that are opposite the other.

There are things she's good at, likes to do, and outperforms me. Other things I'm better at. We get things done together.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

How is this "Priesthood" determined?

That would be only the Mormon church, right?

Do you observe any holidays?

Just so you know. You are not the first time I've come across believers claiming a special dispensation from God to reestablish "The Church". Although one of them were showing signs and wonders. A question you didn't answer.

1. The Priesthood is the authority and power of God given to man to do his work on this earth. It's our Father in Heaven's decision who to give the keys of the Priesthood to and how it is given to all worthy men who have been baptized and confirmed a member of the Church with the Gift of the Holy Ghost as well. Jesus Christ conferred the Priesthood of Aaron and Melchizedek to John the Baptist and Peter, James and John as well eventually the rest of the Apostles. Although, once Peter received the Melchizedek Priesthood, he would be able to do the ordinations. Once conferred, then they were ordained to the various offices of the Priesthood such as an Apostle, High Priest, Elder, Priest, Teacher and Deacon. Peter, James and John conferred these priesthoods to Joseph Smith in person. And, then Joseph Smith was able to continue the process to others in the Church when it was established on April 6, 1830. Each priesthood holder has their genealogy of their priesthood given to them on who conferred and ordained them to the various offices to show it goes back to Jesus Christ who received his Priesthood from His Father.

2. There is no Mormon Church. The name of the the Lord's church in these latter days is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord said to all things in His name. It's interesting how ministers establish Christian churches with most of them leaving out the Lord's name. So, if the name of a church is named after Moses, then it's Mose's church (although he would not stake any claim or association to it). Same with a church named after John the Baptist or any other name...

3. Yes. We don't observe them in the fashion of most Christian churches. But, we recognize the the birth and death of the Savior at the times in which others do. Although, Jesus was not born on December 25th. He was born and died on April 6th. But, since we don't look at those things as reasons to worship them as do others, we are good with the seasons of others. Much like the Sabbath Day. In Israel, Church members hold the Sabbath on Saturdays with the Jews. After all, it's one day in seven but should be on the same day each week. It's not doctrinal but it works administratively. The only real holy-day is the Sabbath.

 

[Overitall]

1. The Priesthood is the authority and power of God given to man to do his work on this earth. It's our Father in Heaven's decision who to give the keys of the Priesthood to and how it is given to all worthy men who have been baptized and confirmed a member of the Church with the Gift of the Holy Ghost as well. Jesus Christ conferred the Priesthood of Aaron and Melchizedek to John the Baptist and Peter, James and John as well eventually the rest of the Apostles. Although, once Peter received the Melchizedek Priesthood, he would be able to do the ordinations. Once conferred, then they were ordained to the various offices of the Priesthood such as an Apostle, High Priest, Elder, Priest, Teacher and Deacon. Peter, James and John conferred these priesthoods to Joseph Smith in person. And, then Joseph Smith was able to continue the process to others in the Church when it was established on April 6, 1830. Each priesthood holder has their genealogy of their priesthood given to them on who conferred and ordained them to the various offices to show it goes back to Jesus Christ who received his Priesthood from His Father.

Seems very similar to the RCC.

You believe in life after death in the present time, at least for certain believers. Correct? Doesn't this contradict the "Church" epistles testimony written by the Apostle Paul; specifically found in Thessalonians? (1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17)

2. There is no Mormon Church. The name of the the Lord's church in these latter days is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

My bad. It's easier to refer to it as The Mormon church because of core pillars holding it up.

The Lord said to all things in His name. It's interesting how ministers establish Christian churches with most of them leaving out the Lord's name. So, if the name of a church is named after Moses, then it's Mose's church (although he would not stake any claim or association to it). Same with a church named after John the Baptist or any other name...

What's in a name? The doctrines a church holds determine its character. Whether it be of God or not.

3. Yes. We don't observe them in the fashion of most Christian churches. But, we recognize the the birth and death of the Savior at the times in which others do.

Just to be clear. Either you observe them or you don't. It seems as though you choose some while discarding others.

Although, Jesus was not born on December 25th. He was born and died on April 6th.

He was born and died on the same date?

But, since we don't look at those things as reasons to worship them as do others, we are good with the seasons of others. Much like the Sabbath Day. In Israel, Church members hold the Sabbath on Saturdays with the Jews. After all, it's one day in seven but should be on the same day each week. It's not doctrinal but it works administratively. The only real holy-day is the Sabbath.

Why is the Sabbath day special? Have you not considered what Jesus said about the Sabbath in Mark 2:27?

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

The context of why he said this is revealing.

 

[Daisy]

He was born and died on April 6th.

Impossible, since he was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the spring of the year...

 

[Overitall]

Impossible, since he was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the spring of the year...

He might have just made a typo.

 

[Ug make hammer]

I like passages which discredit the Bible. This is a particular favorite.

 

[Daisy]

I like passages which discredit the Bible. This is a particular favorite.

It discredits the Bible in no way...it shows that God is a God of order and peace...ever heard of too many cooks in the kitchen?

 

[Grasshopper121212]

Seems very similar to the RCC.

You believe in life after death in the present time, at least for certain believers. Correct? Doesn't this contradict the "Church" epistles testimony written by the Apostle Paul; specifically found in Thessalonians? (1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17)

My bad. It's easier to refer to it as The Mormon church because of core pillars holding it up.

What's in a name? The doctrines a church holds determine its character. Whether it be of God or not.

Just to be clear. Either you observe them or you don't. It seems as though you choose some while discarding others.

He was born and died on the same date?

Why is the Sabbath day special? Have you not considered what Jesus said about the Sabbath in Mark 2:27?

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

The context of why he said this is revealing.

1. No. We believe that at death, the spirit goes to spirit prison which there are two places. One being Paradise and the other sometimes referred to Hell. Some in the church say paradise and spirit prison. Elder Bruce R. McKonkie (an Apostle) wrote that both places are a prison until we are reunited with our earthly bodies so that we can progress as eternal beings. So, he used Paradise and Hell to refer to the two places the spirit goes to. Paradise are where the righteous with testimonies of Jesus Christ go and Hell is where the rest go and await their opportunity to move into Paradise when the receive Christ from missionary spirits and get their ordinance work done for them in this life vicariously from us in the Temple.
The word "sleep" doesn't mean what you think. Our earthly bodies sleep. They will rise up and be joined together with our spirit bodies. When Jesus died, did his spirit body sleep? No. He went to spirit prison to preach to the spirits who's bodies are sleeping from before and after the days of Noah. I'm sure there are other things he did as well in those 3 days after his crucifixion. Hope that helps. As far as the RCC, they have lots of similarities, but lost Heavenly Father's Priesthood authority. It's why they did not follow Paul and his instructions on building the Church with the Orders of Melchizedek and Aaron. The Pope also rejects himself as a prophet of God. They have no prophets nor apostles. They have their own hierarchy with Cardinals, Arch Bishops, Bishops, priests, deacons. But, the keys of the Kingdom they don't have. Apostles and prophets hold the keys.

2. I know. The name is long. But, the Lord, through his prophets and apostles believe now is the time to make sure the Lord's church is separated from all others. After all, in the Book of Mormon it says that if a church is named after a man like Moses or John, then it's Moses or John's church. Mormon is a Book of Mormon prophet, a man. We got comfortable using LDS as well. But, we've been instructed to use the entire name. Even the Mormon Tabernacle Choir changed their name as well.

3. You are right about the doctrines. One of the doctrines Christ said in the NT is that we are to do all in His name. So, a name is important. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

4. Yep. Born on the same date, not day or year.

5. The Sabbath day was designated by God as one of the Ten Commandments. Keep the Sabbath Day holy. Jesus said that to Moses. So, what does it mean that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath? What were the people doing that made him say that? We are taught to "rest" on the Sabbath Day. What that word means is we are to do His work on the Sabbath Day. Not lay around so much. Although, a nap is nice to have and some quiet time praying and being with family. Going to Church, blessing and passing the sacraments to the people. Visiting the sick and the poor, the widows and doing other good things. Not sports, boating and so on. The religious leaders of the day got it backwards.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

Impossible, since he was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the spring of the year...

Who says he was 33 1/2 years old? Do you have a date in the Bible to show us either one?

 

[Daisy]

Who says he was 33 1/2 years old? Do you have a date in the Bible to show us either one?

The account of Jesus’ life on earth covers the period 29-33 CE, and it is careful to make mention of the four Passovers that Jesus attended during his ministry, thus providing one of the lines of proof that his ministry was three and a half years in duration...also considering the fact that Nisan 14, full moon, occurred on Friday in 33 CE, not in 31 or 32 C.E...John 2.13; 5:1; 6:4; 11:55...

"When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old," Luke 3:23

33 1/2 years back from Jesus' death is the fall of the year, when he was born...

 

[Overitall]

1. No. We believe that at death, the spirit goes to spirit prison which there are two places. One being Paradise and the other sometimes referred to Hell. Some in the church say paradise and spirit prison. Elder Bruce R. McKonkie (an Apostle) wrote that both places are a prison until we are reunited with our earthly bodies so that we can progress as eternal beings. So, he used Paradise and Hell to refer to the two places the spirit goes to. Paradise are where the righteous with testimonies of Jesus Christ go and Hell is where the rest go and await their opportunity to move into Paradise when the receive Christ from missionary spirits and get their ordinance work done for them in this life vicariously from us in the Temple.

So, you reject the doctrine of Thessalonians.

The word "sleep" doesn't mean what you think. Our earthly bodies sleep. They will rise up and be joined together with our spirit bodies.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing left of the bodies of those who died during the first year of Christ's Church. If the "spirit bodies" got along just fine for over two thousand years why reunite them? The word "sleep" is just a more digestible way of saying "dead". It's more comforting to think of your love ones being asleep waiting for the day when Jesus will shout from heaven waking them up. Plus Thessalonians says not all will be dead meeting Jesus in the heavens on that day.

When Jesus died, did his spirit body sleep?

The passage you're referring to occurred after he was resurrected. That same spiritual body made it possible for him to instantly appear to the Apostles when they were behind closed doors. I know it's difficult to understand but Jesus was resurrected in a new body which he had control of. He can now appear in any form he wishes, like the angels in heaven. There are no limits to that "spiritual body" and when we are raised on the day of his return we will have a body like his.

No. He went to spirit prison to preach to the spirits who's bodies are sleeping from before and after the days of Noah. I'm sure there are other things he did as well in those 3 days after his crucifixion. Hope that helps. As far as the RCC, they have lots of similarities, but lost Heavenly Father's Priesthood authority.

So you say. They would say the LDS has no authority and that Joseph Smith was a con artist. He certainly had a checkered life.

It's why they did not follow Paul and his instructions on building the Church with the Orders of Melchizedek and Aaron. The Pope also rejects himself as a prophet of God. They have no prophets nor apostles. They have their own hierarchy with Cardinals, Arch Bishops, Bishops, priests, deacons. But, the keys of the Kingdom they don't have. Apostles and prophets hold the keys.

Yea, but like them the LDS have no proof of being divinely given the "keys of the Kingdom". You only have the word of a man who makes the claim that Peter, James, and John appeared to him. Any witnesses of this visit?

2. I know. The name is long. But, the Lord, through his prophets and apostles believe now is the time to make sure the Lord's church is separated from all others. After all, in the Book of Mormon it says that if a church is named after a man like Moses or John, then it's Moses or John's church.. <snip>

But your Church is named after two entities -- of Jesus Christ and -- of the latter day saints. Why not just "The Church of Jesus Christ"?

3. You are right about the doctrines. One of the doctrines Christ said in the NT is that we are to do all in His name. So, a name is important. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

4. Yep. Born on the same date, not day or year.

I still don't understand what you're saying here. The day he was born was the day he died?

5. The Sabbath day was designated by God as one of the Ten Commandments. Keep the Sabbath Day holy. Jesus said that to Moses. So, what does it mean that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath?

The Sabbath serves a purpose for man. To bring man together to praise God. But as Jesus demonstrated every day is the same with God. To make a day special is to put it above God. Read the verse in context to see what Jesus was being accused of.

<snip>The religious leaders of the day got it backwards.

Yea, that's funny.

* <snipped> for content reasons

 

[Ug make hammer]

It discredits the Bible in no way...it shows that God is a God of order and peace...ever heard of too many cooks in the kitchen?

You say "order and peace" but I say Oppression. Giving another person orders, is either a workplace or it's oppression. I wonder which of those you think a family is?

 

[Daisy]

You say "order and peace" but I say Oppression. Giving another person orders, is either a workplace or it's oppression. I wonder which of those you think a family is?

I think when everyone tried to be the boss, there is chaos...

 

[Grasshopper121212]

The account of Jesus’ life on earth covers the period 29-33 CE, and it is careful to make mention of the four Passovers that Jesus attended during his ministry, thus providing one of the lines of proof that his ministry was three and a half years in duration...also considering the fact that Nisan 14, full moon, occurred on Friday in 33 CE, not in 31 or 32 C.E...John 2.13; 5:1; 6:4; 11:55...

"When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old," Luke 3:23

33 1/2 years back from Jesus' death is the fall of the year, when he was born...

You missed something important. The word "about." Not only that, but when was the exact day he was born? Unknown...

 

[Grasshopper121212]

So, you reject the doctrine of Thessalonians.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing left of the bodies of those who died during the first year of Christ's Church. If the "spirit bodies" got along just fine for over two thousand years why reunite them? The word "sleep" is just a more digestible way of saying "dead". It's more comforting to think of your love ones being asleep waiting for the day when Jesus will shout from heaven waking them up. Plus Thessalonians says not all will be dead meeting Jesus in the heavens on that day.

The passage you're referring to occurred after he was resurrected. That same spiritual body made it possible for him to instantly appear to the Apostles when they were behind closed doors. I know it's difficult to understand but Jesus was resurrected in a new body which he had control of. He can now appear in any form he wishes, like the angels in heaven. There are no limits to that "spiritual body" and when we are raised on the day of his return we will have a body like his.

So you say. They would say the LDS has no authority and that Joseph Smith was a con artist. He certainly had a checkered life.

Yea, but like them the LDS have no proof of being divinely given the "keys of the Kingdom". You only have the word of a man who makes the claim that Peter, James, and John appeared to him. Any witnesses of this visit?

But your Church is named after two entities -- of Jesus Christ and -- of the latter day saints. Why not just "The Church of Jesus Christ"?

I still don't understand what you're saying here. The day he was born was the day he died?

The Sabbath serves a purpose for man. To bring man together to praise God. But as Jesus demonstrated every day is the same with God. To make a day special is to put it above God. Read the verse in context to see what Jesus was being accused of.

Yea, that's funny.

* <snipped> for content reasons

Why do you do that? It's not a matter of rejecting something. It's a matter of interpretation and taking things out of context. I accept Thessalonians but interpret "sleep" different than you do. Have you ever thought that maybe your idea of sleep in context with Jesus is wrong? That doesn't mean I'm going to jump all over you and say you reject Thessalonians. We've had a good discussion to this point and now you want to conquer and divide.
The fact again is Jesus died but during the time between the death of his body and his resurrection on the 3rd day, he was busy talking with Mary in the Garden and going to the spirit prison of the spirits who were those who lived in the days of Noah. And, what about them? Their bodies were dead but their spirits were not. They were in this spirit prison, 1Peter 3:18 - 20. The some that were disobedient and others that weren't. So, that's a period of at least 2500 years they had been dead. It also is proof that "sleep" only refers to the earthly body, but not our spirits. As far as comforting to think they are sleeping? Nope. It's more comforting to know that I will return to the waiting place where the spirits of my family will be there awaiting me. This is a perfect case why a prophet is needed today to clear up the errors in doctrine.
Lots of prophets and apostles had checkered lives in the Bible. Especially Paul. So, that is a weak argument.
Nonsense. There are witnesses as well for the ordination and the Plates in which The Book of Mormon was written from.
The Lord is distinguishing the Saints of His day on earth and these the latter days. Thus, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not two persons, just Christ.

 

[Daisy]

You missed something important. The word "about." Not only that, but when was the exact day he was born? Unknown...

No, I did not...we know he died in the spring of the year, Nisan 14 33 CE...his ministry lasted ABOUT 3 1/2 years because he observed 4 Passovers during that time, so logic tells us he was born in the fall...

 

[Grasshopper121212]

No, I did not...we know he died in the spring of the year, Nisan 14 33 CE...his ministry lasted ABOUT 33 1/2 years because he observed 4 Passovers during that time, so logic tells us he was born in the fall...

Have you tried your math skills to see if it is possible to have 4 passovers in an exact 33 years? I think you will find it's possible.

 

[Daisy]

Have you tried your math skills to see if it is possible to have 4 passovers in an exact 33 years? I think you will find it's possible.

Have you? During his minister...I meant 3 1/2 years...

 

[Overitall]

Why do you do that? It's not a matter of rejecting something. It's a matter of interpretation and taking things out of context. I accept Thessalonians but interpret "sleep" different than you do. Have you ever thought that maybe your idea of sleep in context with Jesus is wrong? That doesn't mean I'm going to jump all over you and say you reject Thessalonians. We've had a good discussion to this point and now you want to conquer and divide.
The fact again is Jesus died but during the time between the death of his body and his resurrection on the 3rd day, he was busy talking with Mary in the Garden and going to the spirit prison of the spirits who were those who lived in the days of Noah. And, what about them? Their bodies were dead but their spirits were not. They were in this spirit prison, 1Peter 3:18 - 20. The some that were disobedient and others that weren't. So, that's a period of at least 2500 years they had been dead. It also is proof that "sleep" only refers to the earthly body, but not our spirits. As far as comforting to think they are sleeping? Nope. It's more comforting to know that I will return to the waiting place where the spirits of my family will be there awaiting me. This is a perfect case why a prophet is needed today to clear up the errors in doctrine.
Lots of prophets and apostles had checkered lives in the Bible. Especially Paul. So, that is a weak argument.
Nonsense. There are witnesses as well for the ordination and the Plates in which The Book of Mormon was written from.
The Lord is distinguishing the Saints of His day on earth and these the latter days. Thus, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not two persons, just Christ.

Perhaps this is a subject for another thread. I mean no offense, but you've taken it.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

Perhaps this is a subject for another thread. I mean no offense, but you've taken it.

I've taken what? I did win the debate, of course.

 

[Daisy]

I've taken what? I did win the debate, of course.

And we know that's all important over truth/facts...

 

[Overitall]

I've taken what? I did win the debate, of course.

Now you're being childish.

 

[Parrish]

I prefer this:.

As the Talmud says, "There is no blessing in one's home without the wife's honor." All the blessings a husband receives are in the merit of his wife. When a husband honors and loves his wife, she feels invigorated and will respond in kind.