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Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Grasshopper121212 said:
Yes, the glory and handywork. Doesn't mean it tells of future events.
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To the "magi" the birth of Jesus Christ was a future event which was announced by the stars in heaven. They knew what to look for. Something lost to men of this day and time. They didn't have a book or golden tablet telling them it was time to go to Bethlehem to seek out the child. Long before anything was written down the Word of God was orally given and passed down from one generation to the next. Part of that testimony was in the stars which the magi studied like we study the Written Word. That's how they knew Jesus Christ was born. The stars told them.
Grasshopper121212 said:
That's astrology. However, I said the book is interesting. But, it's not from a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is. When one ties stories to astronomy, it becomes astrology. Not that the connections in the book aren't valuable knowledge, it simply isn't necessary for a testimony of Jesus Christ, His Gospel, His Church and His Plan of Salvation. The Book of Mormon becomes one in our hands with the Bible for better understanding of doctrinal truths. The Bible in Ezekiel says to use them both to stay on the path to the Tree of Life. Isaiah chapter 29 is the prophecy of The Book of Mormon being unearthed and translated by Joseph Smith by the spirit of the Holy Ghost.
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Elora said:
You're right, only the Magi/astrologers...and by that time, Jesus was not in a manger but lived in a house and he was about 2 years old...
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The manger story is so much better. But, you are right. Matthew gives the account and he is in a house and probably 2 years old as Herod killed children 2 years and younger. Tyranny is wicked.
 
Overitall said:
To the "magi" the birth of Jesus Christ was a future event which was announced by the stars in heaven. They knew what to look for. Something lost to men of this day and time. They didn't have a book or golden tablet telling them it was time to go to Bethlehem to seek out the child. Long before anything was written down the Word of God was orally given and passed down from one generation to the next. Part of that testimony was in the stars which the magi studied like we study the Written Word. That's how they knew Jesus Christ was born. The stars told them.
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According to Matthew, the child was 2 years old by the time they got there. The Star was put there as a sign from God. That doesn't mean all the other stars are there for anything other than to show the awe of God.
You are correct that there were times when the scriptures were memorized and passed down from father to son. But, they also wrote down the word too. Writing was done back even in the times of Abraham. But, there were few tablets or scrolls back then.
 
Elora said:
Kinda like Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are one...in agreement...
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More than just being in agreement - after all, how can one disagree with His own Self? :)

That's a good point you give - to support the fact that God and Jesus are one.
Never seen it fro that angle....................................... until now.
Husband and wives - created in the image of God - being one flesh, is an imitation of God.



Genesis 1
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God created Adam in His own image. Male and Female He created them.
Kinda takes that emphasis on creating in His OWN image - with them being ONE - to a whole new level.




Ephesians 5
5 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us,
a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.




God and Jesus = ONE FLESH.
 
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Grasshopper121212 said:
According to Matthew, the child was 2 years old by the time they got there. The Star was put there as a sign from God.
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The "star" was always in the heavens, placed there when God created the heavens. The Magi knew of its significance because they were taught (orally) about it.
Grasshopper121212 said:
That doesn't mean all the other stars are there for anything other than to show the awe of God.
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Stars are objects in the heavens and yet here you're agreeing that they refer to God. So does the written Word of God. So does the Living Word of God -- Jesus Christ. And now, according to you, so too does the Book of Mormons.
Grasshopper121212 said:
You are correct that there were times when the scriptures were memorized and passed down from father to son. But, they also wrote down the word too.
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Who wrote it down? Nothing was written down until the book of Job was (according to scholars) between 1900 and 1700 B.C. How many people prior to that do you think knew how to write or read?
Grasshopper121212 said:
Writing was done back even in the times of Abraham. But, there were few tablets or scrolls back then.
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Nothing during Abraham's time is considered Holy Script.
 
Is it wrong to proclaim that if women want to, get moral with me, I require not only love and honor, but most especially obedience from my helpmeet.
 
tosca1 said:
being one flesh,
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They're not literally one flesh, just as Jehovah God and Jesus are not literally one...2 separate beings, being in unity...
 
danielpalos said:
Is it wrong to proclaim that if women want to, get moral with me, I require not only love and honor, but most especially obedience from my helpmeet.
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Obedience to do what?
 
Overitall said:
Are you suggesting that a couple use a coin to decide who the "boss" is for any given matter?
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If it can be reasonably appropriate or part of the free trial. Negotiation can be everything. I love it when women insist on making a good connection to start our serious dialogue.
 
danielpalos said:
If it can be reasonably appropriate or part of the free trial. Negotiation can be everything. I love it when women insist on making a good connection to start our serious dialogue.
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It's the woman's idea to flip a coin and you're obeying her?
 
tosca1 said:
More than just being in agreement - after all, how can one disagree with His own Self? :)

That's a good point you give - to support the fact that God and Jesus are one.
Never seen it fro that angle....................................... until now.
Husband and wives - created in the image of God - being one flesh, is an imitation of God.



Genesis 1
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God created Adam in His own image. Male and Female He created them.
Kinda takes that emphasis on creating in His OWN image - with them being ONE - to a whole new level.




Ephesians 5
5 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us,
a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.




God and Jesus = ONE FLESH.
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You convolute the debate by saying "God" instead of "The Father. There is a Godhead of three, Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. It's my understanding about Catholicism and Protestantism that none f the Godhead have a physical body. Am I correct on this? It's one reason that when I converted from Judaism to the belief in Jesus Christ that I chose The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This Church's doctrine stated Jesus, at the very least, has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) A spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. he also ate with them.
Now, the Bible says that "If ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father." John 9:14. As though they are one in the same personage. But, the bible also explains the "oneness" as one in purpose. John 9 goes on to say that when we pray, pray to the Father, in the name of the Son. Because the Son glorifies the Father. Not that they are the same person. They are part of the same Godhead as is the Holy Ghost. So, the Father also then has a body of flesh and bones but eternalized as Jesus now has because of the resurrection of the body and spirit. So, one should be able to logically conclude that the Father also received his eternal resurrected body by way of resurrection. Which points to a statement made by one of our past Prophet, seers and revelators, Lorenzo Snow - "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become."
So, the scripture that says husband and wife are of one flesh is symbolic as it is with The Father and The Son with individual personalities, thoughts, liberty and freedom. As long as the Husband is male and the wife is female.
 
Overitall said:
The "star" was always in the heavens, placed there when God created the heavens. The Magi knew of its significance because they were taught (orally) about it.

Stars are objects in the heavens and yet here you're agreeing that they refer to God. So does the written Word of God. So does the Living Word of God -- Jesus Christ. And now, according to you, so too does the Book of Mormons.

Who wrote it down? Nothing was written down until the book of Job was (according to scholars) between: Why 1900 and 1700 B.C. How many people prior to that do you think knew how to write or read?

Nothing during Abraham's time is considered Holy Script.
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Ummm...no. One problem with bringing up astrology is that it suggests that astrologers were correct in foreseeing the Birth of Christ. Such tacit support for pseudoscience is the last thing educators want to impart, nor does it win approval nods from religious leaders. On the other hand, sticking with strictly astronomical explanations (a comet, conjunction, supernova...) is so scientifically wrong that many planetariums are uncomfortable with it. Here is what you are supporting: None of what you present or the author presents has anything to do with religious faith. If you believe the Magi were led by an actual star, fine: Why not a star only the Wise Men could see? After all, suggesting that some natural celestial object such as a comet just happened to appear at the right place and then just happened to stop and hover over the manger for years, that's already indistinguishable from a miracle. Why introduce scientific explanations that has to unfold entirely outside the laws of science? And religion is similarly mistreated because the whole search for the real Christmas Star suggests that faith in the miraculous is unnecessary because there's some kind of rational science explanation for the Star. neither science nor religion are well served.

It possibly was simply something our Father in Heaven or the Holy Ghost put in the sky far above the place where Jesus lived with his parents. Perhaps it was first witnessed by the Magi far away from that place as it took them a couple of years to get there. So, it could have been a light of some sort like a weather balloon or droid in the air that lead them to the Christ child. It just may have looked like a star since they had no idea what stars were and how far from the earth they were.
 
Grasshopper121212 said:
Ummm...no. One problem with bringing up astrology is that it suggests that astrologers were correct in foreseeing the Birth of Christ. Such tacit support for pseudoscience is the last thing educators want to impart, nor does it win approval nods from religious leaders. On the other hand, sticking with strictly astronomical explanations (a comet, conjunction, supernova...) is so scientifically wrong that many planetariums are uncomfortable with it. Here is what you are supporting: None of what you present or the author presents has anything to do with religious faith. If you believe the Magi were led by an actual star, fine: Why not a star only the Wise Men could see? After all, suggesting that some natural celestial object such as a comet just happened to appear at the right place and then just happened to stop and hover over the manger for years, that's already indistinguishable from a miracle. Why introduce scientific explanations that has to unfold entirely outside the laws of science? And religion is similarly mistreated because the whole search for the real Christmas Star suggests that faith in the miraculous is unnecessary because there's some kind of rational science explanation for the Star. neither science nor religion are well served.

It possibly was simply something our Father in Heaven or the Holy Ghost put in the sky far above the place where Jesus lived with his parents. Perhaps it was first witnessed by the Magi far away from that place as it took them a couple of years to get there. So, it could have been a light of some sort like a weather balloon or droid in the air that lead them to the Christ child. It just may have looked like a star since they had no idea what stars were and how far from the earth they were.
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I find it difficult to follow the argument from authority from a sect that rejected the authority of other sects. Do you see the problem I'm having?
 
Overitall said:
I find it difficult to follow the argument from authority from a sect that rejected the authority of other sects. Do you see the problem I'm having?
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What authority do the other sects have? There are about 40,000 Christian churches world-wide. Protestants rejected the Catholic Church. That eliminates most of the 40,000. The Catholic Church rejected the authority of the Priesthood by eliminating the two priesthood orders of Melchizedek and Aaronic (Levitical). The Priesthood is key because the Priesthood is the authority and power of God which made the heavens and the earth. It's God's Priesthood (authority and power) given to man to do His work on earth. As a Catholic Priest once said in a talk to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Protestants have no leg to stand on because they came out from us while we had the authority and truth. Therefore, they apostatized and have no claim of authority and the church of Jesus Christ. It's either the perpetuation of the Church from former days or the Restoration of the Church in these the Last Days."

Your challenge is the same argument Jews had in the time of Jesus Christ when he challenged the authority of the Rabbis, Sadducees and Pharisees. He also mostly silently and indirectly challenged the authority of the Roman gods as well. In fact, he rejected them all and gave the people who followed him a new commandment, taught the true religion and organized a new Church. He called Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, preachers and so on to run the Church including bishops in other cities. Apostasy isn't new. Ancient Israel had challenges with it that caused 10 of the tribes to be lost forever until the second coming of Christ. They lost their authority.

How does the Church look at other sects of Christianity? We don't completely reject them as they reject us. We believe that all people have a right to believe the way they want to. When they confirm righteous faith in God through prayer, we believe their prayers can be answered. That they can have personal relationships with God. They can be blessed in righteousness. They can perform their rituals of baptism and other ordinances the way they want to. What we bring to the table is the authority and power of the Priesthood with the correct administration of the ordinances of the Priesthood. The authority of the Priesthood must come from God, by God and those he has in the past ordained. Joseph Smith received the Priesthood from Peter, James and John who received their Priesthood authority from Jesus Christ. From that point on, members have received that same Priesthood from those in genealogical order over the past about 190 years. With The Book of Mormon, the fulness of the Gospel has been restored in these the latter days.
 
Grasshopper121212 said:
What authority do the other sects have?
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They, like you, believe they have the authority of The Truth.
Grasshopper121212 said:
There are about 40,000 Christian churches world-wide. Protestants rejected the Catholic Church. That eliminates most of the 40,000. The Catholic Church rejected the authority of the Priesthood by eliminating the two priesthood orders of Melchizedek and Aaronic (Levitical). The Priesthood is key because the Priesthood is the authority and power of God which made the heavens and the earth. It's God's Priesthood (authority and power) given to man to do His work on earth. As a Catholic Priest once said in a talk to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Protestants have no leg to stand on because they came out from us while we had the authority and truth. Therefore, they apostatized and have no claim of authority and the church of Jesus Christ. It's either the perpetuation of the Church from former days or the Restoration of the Church in these the Last Days."

Your challenge is the same argument Jews had in the time of Jesus Christ when he challenged the authority of the Rabbis, Sadducees and Pharisees. He also mostly silently and indirectly challenged the authority of the Roman gods as well. In fact, he rejected them all and gave the people who followed him a new commandment, taught the true religion and organized a new Church. He called Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, preachers and so on to run the Church including bishops in other cities. Apostasy isn't new. Ancient Israel had challenges with it that caused 10 of the tribes to be lost forever until the second coming of Christ. They lost their authority.

How does the Church look at other sects of Christianity? We don't completely reject them as they reject us. We believe that all people have a right to believe the way they want to. When they confirm righteous faith in God through prayer, we believe their prayers can be answered. That they can have personal relationships with God. They can be blessed in righteousness. They can perform their rituals of baptism and other ordinances the way they want to. What we bring to the table is the authority and power of the Priesthood with the correct administration of the ordinances of the Priesthood. The authority of the Priesthood must come from God, by God and those he has in the past ordained. Joseph Smith received the Priesthood from Peter, James and John who received their Priesthood authority from Jesus Christ. From that point on, members have received that same Priesthood from those in genealogical order over the past about 190 years. With The Book of Mormon, the fulness of the Gospel has been restored in these the latter days.
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Overitall said:
They, like you, believe they have the authority of The Truth.
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That's the whole point. I didn't decide that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the authority to administer in all things Christ. I asked the Father, in the name of the Son for that information. He gave me His answer. I also gave you the reasons other Churches cannot be the ones with authority because of apostasy. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not come out of any other Church. It was founded by Jesus Christ Himself.
 
Grasshopper121212 said:
That's the whole point. I didn't decide that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the authority to administer in all things Christ. I asked the Father, in the name of the Son for that information. He gave me His answer. I also gave you the reasons other Churches cannot be the ones with authority because of apostasy. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not come out of any other Church. It was founded by Jesus Christ Himself.
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You do know that other believers go to God in prayers and get the same answer you got. Others have claimed that Jesus choose them to rebuild "The Church". What makes you think Smith is not like them. Are signs and wonders like what happened in the first century evident?
 
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