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Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

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Sheik Yerbuti said:
And herein lies the problem which this case may have exposed. You're right, the SYG law requires the other person to attack you first when outside of your home, however, the law also allows an inividual to strike first with non-lethal force if they reasonably believe they are about to be unlawfully attacked.
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Ordinary self-defense laws already on the books are no different.

That could very well be what occurred here. Trayvon attacked first out of self defense against someone he could have reasonably was going to attack him and Zimmerman killed Martin because he was attacked first and reasonably felt his life was in danger.

So who's more to blame? I blame Zimmerman. He instigated the entire event by prejudging Trayvon and then abandoning his training as a neighbor watchman by going after Trayvon and by further dismissing the advice from 911 to break off his following after Martin ss the police were on their way.
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If Zimmerman's accounting of events cannot be disproved (Trayvon saying, "You have a problem? Well, you do now..." and then attacking him) then the law says Zimmerman isn't guilty of any crime. SYG laws aside. That's just plain, ordinary self-defense. Eyewitness reports to police corroborate he was losing the fight, thus self-defense works.

If Martin RAN, saw he was being pursued and decided to turn and face his accuser, SYG would apply to HIM. (In my uneducated and probably misinformed opinion.)
 
ARealConservative said:
the cop was undercover, and he pushed him. charges dropped.

the domestic stuff is what it is. he and his wife I believe got mutual restraining orders.
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Thunder knew all that already. Doesn't care.
 
joko104 said:
He did? Seems he would have mentioned THAT to his girlfriend on the phone.
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Well, since you seem to be taking Z's word for gospel, it seems odd that you have forgotten Z's claim that M went for his gun...
 
Hatuey said:
To my knowledge cops are trained not to see people with hoodies and automatically assume they're up to something wrong. I mean I could be wrong but I always thought racial profiling was a big no-no for police agencies.
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profiling is human nature. the cops were unprofessional, no argument from me. Unfortunately, cops on the job for long often gain a negative view when they see black teens involved in violent acts and allow the profiling too much sway in how they act.
 
Res Cogitans said:
Well, since you seem to be taking Z's word for gospel, it seems odd that you have forgotten Z's claim that M went for his gun...
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Z's word was corroborated by eyewitnesses... for now it has more credibility.
 
OscarB63 said:
Martin's bravado got him killed. Bravado when he told his gf he wouldn't run. Bravado when he decided to continue to beat a man who was laying on the ground instead of walking away.
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How is bravado the only explanation for beating a guy who you know has a gun. Again, you expect a kid to just let some stranger who was stalking him KEEP a gun?

Maybe Zimmerman should not have followed and confronted him, but it was Martin's over-reaction to the situation that got him killed.

I have been followed many times. I have been confronted on numerous occasions. Not once have I responded by punching the person in the face and then beating them while they were on the ground.

Zimmerman is a wanna be hero
Martin was a wanna be tough guy

The guy with the gun survived
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Muhammed said:
When I was his age....

Like Martin I got in trouble a lot.
Like Martin I smoked pot.
Like Martin, when I was a 17 year old, I might have attacked someone if I thought they were following me.


But unlike Martin, I would like to think that, no matter how much pot I smoked, I would not brutally continue to beat the hell out of someone while they were down and screaming for help.

When I was his age, I was in great physical shape and very strong like Martin, but I just don't think I could have been cruel enough to do that. I mean, maybe I would have decked the guy, but there is no way in hell I would have beat him up while he was on the ground screaming for help.

That is simply cruel and heartless.
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Exactamundo. And that is where Martin went from being justified to being a thug that Zimmerman killed in self defense. All Martin had to do was walk away after Zimmerman was laying on the ground bleeding. But he had to be a badass and continue to beat him.

That is the critical moment in this entire case.

Reminds me of the rules of engagement in combat. Once a guy is down, he is no longer a combatant and you cannot continue to shoot him.
 
joko104 said:
Only African-Americans wear hoodies? What a bigoted stereotyping statement of you.
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Pssssst - ZIMMERMAN WAS KNOWN for racial profiling. Why don't you pay attention instead of writing diatribes about the incoming race wars and your KKK buddies?
 
MaggieD said:
It doesn't work on either side of the law. If you are attacked by someone and decide your life is in danger and shoot them, the law protects you. If you started the attack, you're toast. As for your saying, "We are just going to take the winner's word for it," that's no different than what self-defense laws on the books have said since the beginning of time. We do not postulate on what happened. We MUST accept the survivor's version of events until and unless we can disprove them. That's the American Way.

The SYG law simply states that the shooter doesn't have to prove he couldn't run away...and protects him unconditionally from civil liability in that case. That's so burglars who are shot in the leg can't sue a homeowner for so doing....lawsuits that do see the light of day in our courtrooms. And whether or not the burglar wins the lawsuit? The homeowner must go to great expense to defend himself from same without SYG.
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But the thing about the law that strikes me as crazy, is that if the police--at the scene of the crime--can't find evidence to counter your claim then you are protected from what?

The courts?
 
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Consider this, change nothing, but Zimmerman is not armed.
Now when the cops show up(aprox 60 seconds)Zimmerman is beat up bad, maybe dead.
What would Trayvon's story be, that Zimmerman ran him down, attacked him and lost the fight?
Or that this guy was following me, so I got in his face.
Ether way he would be charged with assault. ( the run down story would not be believable)
I choose to believe, that George Zimmerman is a good neighbor, who spoke up when he saw
something out of place. An unknown person in a gated community.
The main thing that went wrong here, is that Trayvon confronted George, before the police arrived.
 
Ockham said:
Z's word was corroborated by eyewitnesses... for now it has more credibility.
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Someone corroborated that M went for Z's Gun?

If so, that person probably saw the whole fight, right? what else did they say?
 
Hatuey said:
Pssssst - ZIMMERMAN WAS KNOWN for racial profiling. Why don't you pay attention instead of writing diatribes about the incoming race wars and your KKK buddies?
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No, he is not known for racial profiling. You just made that up.

I find contraditions of Zimmerman-haters really interesting. While raging it is fully unacceptable to call the police on someone and watching where they go is SO intimidating as to constitute an assault - and assaults are bad...
... then spin around and rage how Martin has a right to violently assault and kill Zimmerman because murder is good if against the right sort of person.

Or, now, after ALL YOUR raging of racism! racism! racism! and I respond that actually there really is racism and a whole lot of it and it's ramping up now big time - and you do a 180 as you always do how anyone who thinks there are dangerous white racists is just a conspiracy kook.

You REALLY do make all this up - even your values, platitudes and truisms of perpetual exact opposites - as you go along.
 
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joko104 said:
?????????????????
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I said that M knew that Z had a gun. I took your post to mean that this was not true or that it was worthy of skepticism.

the fact that Z claimed that M went for his gun should verify that M knew about the gun.

That is, if we are taking Z's words for a factual account of the night's evnts.


As such, those folks who act like it was perfectly reasonable for M to just get up and walk away are not thinking seriously about what that would mean.
 
longview said:
Consider this, change nothing, but Zimmerman is not armed.
Now when the cops show up(aprox 60 seconds)Zimmerman is beat up bad, maybe dead.
What would Trayvon's story be, that Zimmerman ran him down, attacked him and lost the fight?
Or that this guy was following me, so I got in his face.
Ether way he would be charged with assault. ( the run down story would not be believable)
I choose to believe, that George Zimmerman is a good neighbor, who spoke up when he saw
something out of place. An unknown person in a gated community.
The main thing that went wrong here, is that Trayvon confronted George, before the police arrived.
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Lol... I've never lived in a gated community. I know this gated community had around 250 homes in it - some people have put the estimates of it at being 1000 people. Are we to assume Georgie-boy knew all 1000 people in this community? What percentage do you think he knew?

Here - I'll put it into perspective, my wife has Facebook. On her account she has nearly 600 people. I know maybe 150 of them. 50 of them I could consider acquaintances and another 20-25 would be what I'd consider "close friends" or family. Now, do you think George Zimmerman knew every single person in his community?

The notion that Zimmerman acted because he saw an unknown suspicious is ridiculous until you prove what is suspicious about somebody walking around.
 
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ARealConservative said:
I think we are well beyond the fact that Martin gained the upper hand in this battle, regardless of who started it, Martin was winning at one point.

So he could of easily left at any point after dropping Zimmerman to the ground.

of course, if he was really afraid, as the anti-gun nuts have us believe, he also could of actually ran away. He didn't. the girlfriends testimony gives us an insight into his bravado when he tells her he won't run.

so stop pretending Martin has no blame, even if he didn't deserve to die, he made some stupid decisions that night.
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i think its reasonable to consider that a young black might see it as unwise to be seen running through a strange complex at night. he did say he was "walking fast" , remember.

And if we're fighting and a gun comes into play, there is NO WAY I'm climbing off you. thats just stupid.
 
joko104 said:
No, he is not known for racial profiling. You just made that up.
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ROFL:

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some residents of his gated townhouse community declared that Zimmerman was known for being strict and that he went door to door asking them to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders", while others regarded him as normal, helpful and passionate about neighborhood security, having supposedly thwarted a previous burglary attempt.[31] The community reportedly experienced numerous instances of burglary, theft, and one shooting during the previous year, with 402 calls made to the police."[31] According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman had placed 46 of those calls since the beginning of 2011, "to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents; nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious".[31] The Herald described Zimmerman as "mild-mannered", but "fixated on crime and focused on young, black males."[31]
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What would you call this? Please quit making yourself look bad. It's depressing.
 
Hatuey said:
Pssssst - ZIMMERMAN WAS KNOWN for racial profiling. Why don't you pay attention instead of writing diatribes about the incoming race wars and your KKK buddies?
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Known? are you making that up? you are, aren't you? :lol:
 
Thunder said:
just like you made up that ALL blacks in prison want to kill Zimmerman.

just like you made up that Obama called for racial segregation & a race war.
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I bet you can't find "ALL" in my message, can you?
 
ARealConservative said:
the statistical relevance behind such profiling alone makes it perfectly acceptable for me. Sorry if that offends you, but you better learn to live with it because unless things improve radically, it will always be that way.
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It's still racial profiling :shrug:
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
And herein lies the problem which this case may have exposed. You're right, the SYG law requires the other person to attack you first when outside of your home, however, the law also allows an inividual to strike first with non-lethal force if they reasonably believe they are about to be unlawfully attacked.
Click to expand...


Your bolded sentence: So do regular ordinary self-defense laws.
That could very well be what occurred here. Trayvon attacked first out of self defense against someone he could have reasonably was going to attack him and Zimmerman killed Martin because he was attacked first and reasonably felt his life was in danger.
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I completely agree with you. If your version of events is correct, my common sense tells me that Zimmerman could not use self-defense to hide behind. But it is up to the state to disprove his account.
So who's more to blame? I blame Zimmerman. He instigated the entire event by prejudging Trayvon and then abandoning his training as a neighbor watchman by going after Trayvon and by further dismissing the advice from 911 to break off his following after Martin ss the police were on their way.
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I agree with you from a moral standpoint. Completely. Zimmerman should never have exited his car; if he hadn't, everything else that followed probably wouldn't have happened. But it is not against the law to get out of one's car. That's the crux of it right there.

If I'm mad because of some traffic bull**** and exit my car in a huff, the other guy can't start beating the crap out of me.
 
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