Without the right of the people to keep and bear arms, how are they supposed to protect themselves?

[Rucker61]

Individual federal laws do not override Constitutional powers.

What powers were enumerated in the Constitution to allow the government to infringe the right of the People to keep and bear arms?

SCOTUS opinions can over rule prior SCOTUS decisions.

True, but as you note that would go against stare decisis, which you support.

 

[mrjurrs]

What powers were enumerated in the Constitution to allow the government to infringe the right of the People to keep and bear arms?



True, but as you note that would go against stare decisis, which you support.

The Supremacy clause.

Just because I believe in fair play doesn't mean I won't rejoice when the decision is in my self interest.

 

[Rucker61]

The Supremacy clause.

Just because I believe in fair play doesn't mean I won't rejoice when the decision is in my self interest.

The Supremacy Clause gives the federal government precedence over state laws. It doesn't give any powers to infringe the Bill of Rights.

 

[mrjurrs]

The Supremacy Clause gives the federal government precedence over state laws. It doesn't give any powers to infringe the Bill of Rights.

It also establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions.

The Constitution has Article 5. That is where that specific power could be altered. There has been an amendment repealed, and there is only one part of the Constitution that specifically is not subject to an amendment, equal representation of the states in the Senate.

 

[Rucker61]

It also establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions.

The Constitution has Article 5. That is where that specific power could be altered. There has been an amendment repealed, and there is only one part of the Constitution that specifically is not subject to an amendment, equal representation of the states in the Senate.

Until the 2nd is amended, the government doesn't have the power.

 

[mrjurrs]

Until the 2nd is amended, the government doesn't have the power.

That is not true. A SCOTUS opinion overruling any of their 2nd Amendment related rulings would alter the legal landscape.

 

[Rucker61]

That is not true. A SCOTUS opinion overruling any of their 2nd Amendment related rulings would alter the legal landscape.

There's lots of stuff that could happen in the future. Until it does the power does not exist.

 

[mrjurrs]

There's lots of stuff that could happen in the future. Until it does the power does not exist.

You are simply, and plainly, incorrect. Power does not have to be used to be held.

 

[Rucker61]

You are simply, and plainly, incorrect. Power does not have to be used to be held.

You can believe that if you want. "If things change 180 degrees" is not a current status.

 

[mrjurrs]

You can believe that if you want. "If things change 180 degrees" is not a current status.

Really? How do you explain the Roe decision (apparently)?

 

[Rucker61]

Really? How do you explain the Roe decision (apparently)?

It's sti the law of the land, isn't it?

 

[mrjurrs]

It's sti the law of the land, isn't it?

Yes, and if the opinion comes down as expected, the terrain will turn 180 degrees.

 

[notquiteright]

Wouldn't the Senate just recount the votes at a later date? I understand what the MAGA crowd wanted; I just don't see how it could have been accomplished by the invasion of the Capitol on January 6th.

The hope, forlorn as it maybe, was a delay to get the bogus pro-tRump slate in. I imagine a few really wanted to hang Pence, really think it is time for the blood of tyrants to flow (Look how many in here and in Congress call the Biden administration corrupt, commie, tyrannical)

It is difficult to understand after the fact, but it appears tRump promised to lead them and that was enough....

 

[notquiteright]

Probably because as many on the left have proved over and over again that one of the main things from then being able to ban or severely limit gun ownership.

But that’s just a guess.

Sooooo, it's ok the storm the Capital and attack Congress as it's fulfills it's Constitutional Duty???

You need to look at the polls- waaay more than the Left want more sensible laws, enforcement of the ones already on the books when it comes to mass murder, and 'gun' rubbers appears to many moderates as the ones that have proven time after time, no discussion is possible...

 

[Rucker61]

You need to look at the polls- waaay more than the Left want more sensible laws

Name a few.

, enforcement of the ones already on the books when it comes to mass murder

What laws on mass murder aren't being enforced?

, and 'gun' rubbers appears to many moderates as the ones that have proven time after time, no discussion is possible...

Isn't that what we're doing now?

 

[braindrain]

Sooooo, it's ok the storm the Capital and attack Congress as it's fulfills it's Constitutional Duty???

You need to look at the polls- waaay more than the Left want more sensible laws, enforcement of the ones already on the books when it comes to mass murder, and 'gun' rubbers appears to many moderates as the ones that have proven time after time, no discussion is possible...

What are you talking about. Where did I say anything about jan 6 or it being ok.
You probably need to work on your reading comprehension just a bit.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

The gop will never ever ever ever go for it


Take it up with them

LOL, this is exactly what they do in (the apparently GOP stronghold) of California.

 

[notquiteright]

Name a few. What laws on mass murder aren't being enforced? Isn't that what we're doing now?

Hill Harris mar'21, Gallup nov'21. Want more???

Ones directed at the root cause of 'gun' violence. Red flag, better enforcement of firearm laws as in strawman purchases, hold those who 'loan' weapons and the weapon is used in mass murder accountable. The Right loves to punish those with firearms AFTER the fact but care little about prevention. (Thought police and all that crap) It looks to me that in this day and age of everyone tweeting and blogging every thought- these murderers leave trails a blind man could follow.

One thing that keeps bothering me about the jan6th apologists- since the insurrection was a fizzle, why the upset? The Right wants us to dismiss this as foolish overwrought behavior and not a symptom of something deeper, meaner, deadlier.

Oh sure, just a few idiots being stupid, but it doesn't mean anything...

I've read some history- John Brown's seizure of Harper's Ferry wasn't called a riot, was dismissed as the actions of a few lunatics.

How many times did the Russian peasants rise up against the Tsar??? each dismissed as rabble, not a sign of deep unrest.

A dust-up in a Munich beer hall that fizzled in spectacular fashion- easily dismissed but was a harbinger of things to come.

The failed attempt to subvert the Will of the People to install a leader is what 3rd world countries do.

Time for the 'law and order' folks to call Jan 6th what it was- a sign of very deep anger and fear of losing most favored race status in this country that fuels intense hatred to the point of irrational lashing out. One or two fringies can perhaps be dismissed, but hundreds baited by a cowardly rabble rouser should concern everyone...

 

[notquiteright]

Probably because as many on the left have proved over and over again that one of the main things from then being able to ban or severely limit gun ownership.

But that’s just a guess.

I suppose if you were a bit better communicating whatever the above is supposed to mean we could discuss the topic better...

I note you haven't called Jan6th a bad thing either. You did take an oath to support and defend- amirite???

 

[Rucker61]

Hill Harris mar'21, Gallup nov'21. Want more???

Sorry, I meant "name a few sensible laws".

Ones directed at the root cause of 'gun' violence. Red flag

Red Flag laws tend to violate due process, and NY failed to use its Red Flag law against the Buffalo shooter.

, better enforcement of firearm laws as in strawman purchases

How do you enforce the laws against straw purchases?

, hold those who 'loan' weapons and the weapon is used in mass murder accountable

How many mass murders are committed with "loaned weapons" to a prohibited person?

The Right loves to punish those with firearms AFTER the fact but care little about prevention. (Thought police and all that crap) It looks to me that in this day and age of everyone tweeting and blogging every thought- these murderers leave trails a blind man could follow.

Following a trail isn't going to get you in front of the person you're following.

 

[notquiteright]

Sorry, I meant "name a few sensible laws". Red Flag laws tend to violate due process, and NY failed to use its Red Flag law against the Buffalo shooter. How do you enforce the laws against straw purchases? How many mass murders are committed with "loaned weapons" to a prohibited person? Following a trail isn't going to get you in front of the person you're following.

That is the bigger point- what the Right sees as 'sensible'...

The Courts have already ruled Red Flag laws have a due process attached. The Buffalo white supremist mass murderer should have been identified- it proves my point- the system isn't really interested in enforcing Firearm laws.

Straw purchases- remove the hamstrung rules Congress placed on the ATF, beef the ATF up and stop giving FFL's who violate the law years to do so, years to fight in court and a slap on the wrist when done.

So why would creating a law to hold those who loan firearms to those who commit mass murder- or murder of any sort- offend the Right?

The biggest rant I've heard on the subject of 'the line' is how so many 'others' are now getting placed in front of the white folks standing in line. What that ignores is for centuries the whites in line could count on the others being held back. I know it sucks, but the days of whites to the front are done. I also understand the anger that generates in a lot of white folks.

 

[Rucker61]

That is the bigger point- what the Right

and Left

sees as 'sensible'...

The Courts have already ruled Red Flag laws have a due process attached.

SCOTUS hasn't. The federal government hasn't, and "reasonableness" is based upon the wording of the actual law itself.

"“Red flag” laws, or “extreme risk protection orders”, have been enacted in several states. While the idea for these laws is reasonable, some statutes are not. They destroy due process of law, endanger law enforcement and the public, and can be handy tools for stalkers and abusers to disarm their innocent victims. Many order are improperly issued against innocent people."

Red Flag Laws: Proceed with Caution

“Red flag” laws, or “extreme risk protection orders”, have been enacted in several states. While the idea for these laws is reasonable, some statutes are not. T

papers.ssrn.com

The Buffalo white supremist mass murderer should have been identified- it proves my point- the system isn't really interested in enforcing Firearm laws.

By "system", do you mean the federal government and the State of New York?

Straw purchases- remove the hamstrung rules Congress placed on the ATF, beef the ATF up and stop giving FFL's who violate the law years to do so, years to fight in court and a slap on the wrist when done.

What does this have to do with straw purchases? Every single straw purchaser passes a background check.

So why would creating a law to hold those who loan firearms to those who commit mass murder- or murder of any sort- offend the Right?

Why should loaning a gun to someone who isn't a prohibited person be a crime? If the mass murderer passes a background check and uses that legally purchased gun to commit mass murder, should we sue the FBI for allowing the sale?

EDIT: You do know that HR.8, the current UBC bill, makes it perfectly legal to loan a gun to a perfect stranger in some cases, right?

The biggest rant I've heard on the subject of 'the line' is how so many 'others' are now getting placed in front of the white folks standing in line. What that ignores is for centuries the whites in line could count on the others being held back. I know it sucks, but the days of whites to the front are done. I also understand the anger that generates in a lot of white folks.

Okay.

 

[notquiteright]

and Left

SCOTUS hasn't. The federal government hasn't, and "reasonableness" is based upon the wording of the actual law itself.

"“Red flag” laws, or “extreme risk protection orders”, have been enacted in several states. While the idea for these laws is reasonable, some statutes are not. They destroy due process of law, endanger law enforcement and the public, and can be handy tools for stalkers and abusers to disarm their innocent victims. Many order are improperly issued against innocent people."

Red Flag Laws: Proceed with Caution

“Red flag” laws, or “extreme risk protection orders”, have been enacted in several states. While the idea for these laws is reasonable, some statutes are not. T

papers.ssrn.com

By "system", do you mean the federal government and the State of New York?

What does this have to do with straw purchases? Every single straw purchaser passes a background check.

Why should loaning a gun to someone who isn't a prohibited person be a crime? If the mass murderer passes a background check and uses that legally purchased gun to commit mass murder, should we sue the FBI for allowing the sale?

EDIT: You do know that HR.8, the current UBC bill, makes it perfectly legal to loan a gun to a perfect stranger in some cases, right?

Okay.

More NRA twisting, it was just a matter of time. Point to a Red Flag law on the books that denies Due Process not some abstract paper...

The system is Congress and local law enforcement. Neither wants to upset the voters, both run for office. The ATF has been severely hamstrung by laws preventing them from quickly following up on FFLs found out of compliance, need a court order to revisit, takes years in the courts to end up with a little fine, change of 'owners' and everyone shows up the very next day, business as usual.

Congress has forbidden the CDC from studying 'gun' violence to have a comprehensive study on the problem with possible actions to lessen the deaths.

When local law enforcement does bust a firearm smuggling ring they find out the weapons came from a very firearm 'friendly' state, the pistols purchased in multiples a day, multiple days and no reporting to the ATF....

Again, part of the problem for mass murderers passing checks is the warning signs were ignored- by medical professionals, local law enforcement and judges. No alert send in so no problem buying an AR.

HR.8- I never said make loaning a firearm illegal, but if the loaned weapon is used in a murder hold the owner at least partly responsible. (I think civil suits with the lower standard of proof is the best venue)

 

[Rucker61]

More NRA twisting, it was just a matter of time. Point to a Red Flag law on the books that denies Due Process not some abstract paper...

Prof Kopel is a well known professor of Constitutional Law. He's testified before the Colorado legislature and US Congress in regards to gun control and specifically Red Flag laws. He's the author of multiple amicus briefs submitted to SCOTUS in 2A cases. I'll take his opinion over yours.

The system is Congress and local law enforcement. Neither wants to upset the voters, both run for office. The ATF has been severely hamstrung by laws preventing them from quickly following up on FFLs found out of compliance, need a court order to revisit, takes years in the courts to end up with a little fine, change of 'owners' and everyone shows up the very next day, business as usual.

Crooked FFLs are not a major source of guns to criminals, nor should typos or other administrative errors cost anyone their means of business.

Congress has forbidden the CDC from studying 'gun' violence to have a comprehensive study on the problem with possible actions to lessen the deaths.

Here's why:
“We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths. We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.” (P.W. O’Carroll, Acting Section Head of Division of Injury Control, CDC, quoted in Marsha F. Goldsmith, “Epidemiologists Aim at New Target: Health Risk of Handgun Proliferation,” Journal of the American Medical Association vol. 261 no. 5, February 3, 1989, pp. 675-76.) Dr. O’Carroll later said he had been misquoted.
But his successor Dr. Mark Rosenberg was quoted in the Washington Post as wanting his agency to create a public perception of firearms as “dirty, deadly—and banned.covert surveillance program ” (William Raspberry, “Sick People With Guns,” Washington Post, October 19, 1994.

Studies that already have the results determined, and those results would violate the Constitution, should be blocked. However, the CDC has produced gun control studies, and the CDC isn't the only agency with the expertise to do so (currently they have no expertise at all).

What is the value of a CDC study? Do gun control advocates think that the CDC findings will allow them to ignore the Constitution?


Post-Dickey Act CDC studies

First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

Read chapter Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence: In 2010, more than 105,000 people were injured or killed in the Uni...

www.nap.edu

https://dhss.delaware.gov/dhss/dms/files/cdcgunviolencereport10315.pdf

DOJ studies:

Publications Listing

nij.ojp.gov

DOJ statistics:

Home

The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) is the United States' primary source for criminal justice statistics that cover a wide range of topics.

www.bjs.gov

CDC data:

WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System) | Injury Center | CDC

WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System) is an interactive database system that provides customized reports of injury-related data.

webappa.cdc.gov

FBI UCR - government violence tracking.

Crime/Law Enforcement Stats (UCR Program) | Federal Bureau of Investigation

The UCR Program's primary objective is to generate reliable information for use in law enforcement administration, operation, and management.

www.fbi.gov

research@BSPH | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

From laboratories in the Wolfe Street building in Baltimore to maternity wards in densely-packed neighborhoods in urban Bangladesh to field studies in rural Botswana, Bloomberg school faculty lead research that directly addresses the most critical public health issues worldwide.

www.jhsph.edu

Firearms Research

RECENT PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS A full list of HICRC journal publications (firearm and nonfirearm) organized by year is available under Publications. Journal articles specific to firearms researc…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

When local law enforcement does bust a firearm smuggling ring they find out the weapons came from a very firearm 'friendly' state, the pistols purchased in multiples a day, multiple days and no reporting to the ATF....

Even in "gun friendly states", FFLs are required by federal law to report multiple purchases of handguns in a single week.

2/3 of the guns traced to California come from California. No smuggling ring necessary.

Again, part of the problem for mass murderers passing checks is the warning signs were ignored- by medical professionals, local law enforcement and judges. No alert send in so no problem buying an AR.

That's not a gun control issue; that's a failure of government issue.

HR.8- I never said make loaning a firearm illegal, but if the loaned weapon is used in a murder hold the owner at least partly responsible. (I think civil suits with the lower standard of proof is the best venue)

If the recipient is not a prohibited person at the time of the loan, why would the loaner be liable?

 

[notquiteright]

Prof Kopel is a well known professor of Constitutional Law. He's testified before the Colorado legislature and US Congress in regards to gun control and specifically Red Flag laws. He's the author of multiple amicus briefs submitted to SCOTUS in 2A cases. I'll take his opinion over yours.

Crooked FFLs are not a major source of guns to criminals, nor should typos or other administrative errors cost anyone their means of business.

Here's why:
“We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths. We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.” (P.W. O’Carroll, Acting Section Head of Division of Injury Control, CDC, quoted in Marsha F. Goldsmith, “Epidemiologists Aim at New Target: Health Risk of Handgun Proliferation,” Journal of the American Medical Association vol. 261 no. 5, February 3, 1989, pp. 675-76.) Dr. O’Carroll later said he had been misquoted.
But his successor Dr. Mark Rosenberg was quoted in the Washington Post as wanting his agency to create a public perception of firearms as “dirty, deadly—and banned.covert surveillance program ” (William Raspberry, “Sick People With Guns,” Washington Post, October 19, 1994.

Studies that already have the results determined, and those results would violate the Constitution, should be blocked. However, the CDC has produced gun control studies, and the CDC isn't the only agency with the expertise to do so (currently they have no expertise at all).

What is the value of a CDC study? Do gun control advocates think that the CDC findings will allow them to ignore the Constitution?


Post-Dickey Act CDC studies

First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

Read chapter Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence: In 2010, more than 105,000 people were injured or killed in the Uni...

www.nap.edu

https://dhss.delaware.gov/dhss/dms/files/cdcgunviolencereport10315.pdf

DOJ studies:

Publications Listing

nij.ojp.gov

DOJ statistics:

Home

The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) is the United States' primary source for criminal justice statistics that cover a wide range of topics.

www.bjs.gov

CDC data:

WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System) | Injury Center | CDC

WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System) is an interactive database system that provides customized reports of injury-related data.

webappa.cdc.gov

FBI UCR - government violence tracking.

Crime/Law Enforcement Stats (UCR Program) | Federal Bureau of Investigation

The UCR Program's primary objective is to generate reliable information for use in law enforcement administration, operation, and management.

www.fbi.gov

research@BSPH | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

From laboratories in the Wolfe Street building in Baltimore to maternity wards in densely-packed neighborhoods in urban Bangladesh to field studies in rural Botswana, Bloomberg school faculty lead research that directly addresses the most critical public health issues worldwide.

www.jhsph.edu

Firearms Research

RECENT PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS A full list of HICRC journal publications (firearm and nonfirearm) organized by year is available under Publications. Journal articles specific to firearms researc…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

Even in "gun friendly states", FFLs are required by federal law to report multiple purchases of handguns in a single week.

2/3 of the guns traced to California come from California. No smuggling ring necessary.

That's not a gun control issue; that's a failure of government issue.

If the recipient is not a prohibited person at the time of the loan, why would the loaner be liable?

Lots of NRA whine here. First the CDC, one report is close to 20 years old, the other a simple numbers report- no study or recommendations on the issue. The rest more than 30 years old.

Next, the FFL responsibilities- since an FFL can expect a visit every decade by the ATF, has little to fear from failure to report multiple sales there is little teeth in the reporting rules.

You need to cite a source for the 2/3rds of the 'guns' traced to cali came from cali??? Did find when 25% of buyers avoided the back round check.

A rare win for ending firearm violence through illegal sales- Osage County FFL holder sold 19 firearms without recording name, age, residence, or doing a Back round check. ATF busted him, and this is 2021. I could drag more in here but the real facts are FFLs have so little to fear from the ATF they have little incentive to follow the law.

I'll agree it's a failure of government- failure to give enforcement the tools and manpower to stop felonies at FFLs....

If a man shows drunken behavior and you give him the keys to your truck... same thing...