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Without God, there are no inalienable rights

Goshin said:
Are your rights more secure if they are generally believed to be endowed by divinity...
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The security of your rights lies in your ability to defend them.
 
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American said:
If God is removed from the minds of the People, then the protection of inalienable rights is also removed. For then government determines what your rights are.
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I doubt it... Even my dog, not a believer, instinctively knows right from wrong.

ricksfolly
 
ricksfolly said:
I doubt it... Even my dog, not a believer, instinctively knows right from wrong.

ricksfolly
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I guess that's why dogs piss in the floor, chew up your shoes, hump your leg and lick their own asses and testicles and eat other dog's ****.
 
So what? Even if we assumed that w/out God, there are no inalienable rights, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God exists.

But anyway, life clearly isn't inalienable with or without God. GOd kills plenty of people all the time in the Bible, and women are considered property, so there goes the liberty idea.

Happiness is not a Christian value. Suffering and self-loathing are, so woops, there goes pursuit of happiness.
 
So basically it's all of the rights that cannot be taken away by illegal aliens?
 
American friend i like you very much and also you write well,and your Great President Thomas jefferson who is a Scot from the beginging of time,but as Stalin said,How Many Divisions does the Pope of Rome Have?,thats what counts in this day,just ask President Bush.

all the best to you and your Family.

mikeey
 
bryann380 said:
Correction... without "god" in the minds of all mankind, there would be global peace and harmony.
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This is silly. There are numerous causes for conflict, local, regional, national and international, that have nothing to do with God.
 
I saw someone put on here that the founding fathers were christian. Let me go ahead and put some proof on the table that says otherwise. Conservatives tell us to do "our research" and we have. We are educated, and it seems you conservatives are not. Also, this isnt a theocracy. This is a Democracy, meaning it is power of the people, and by the people. Not power to the bible and Shmesus Christo.

James Madion, Father of the Constituion

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State"

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"

Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."



George Washington

"If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."


There are many more quotes I could bring up, but simply choose not to due to lack of time, willingness, and because I think my point has been proven. This country was not founded on Christanity whatsoever, and has always intended to be a land of the free, in every aspect. Conservatives have not perverse Christianity into the sick religion it is today (pedophilia & corruption rampant), but have tried and hijacked the ideas of the founding fathers to expand their own agendas. Conservatives, please go and do your research, thank you.
 
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jkohn51192 said:
I saw someone put on here that the founding fathers were christian. Let me go ahead and put some proof on the table that says otherwise. Conservatives tell us to do "our research" and we have. We are educated, and it seems you conservatives are not. Also, this isnt a theocracy. This is a Democracy, meaning it is power of the people, and by the people. Not power to the bible and Shmesus Christo.

James Madion, Father of the Constituion

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State"

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"

Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."



George Washington

"If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."


There are many more quotes I could bring up, but simply choose not to due to lack of time, willingness, and because I think my point has been proven. This country was not founded on Christanity whatsoever, and has always intended to be a land of the free, in every aspect. Conservatives have not perverse Christianity into the sick religion it is today (pedophilia & corruption rampant), but have tried and hijacked the ideas of the founding fathers to expand their own agendas. Conservatives, please go and do your research, thank you.
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You didn't even come close to hitting the target. EPIC FAIL
 
Religious tolerance was a major factor in the colonization of America. It doesn't make sense that our Founding Fathers would pigeon hole one particular religion into our foundation. It's all OK to be "Christian"; but it begins to be problematic when Christians become the opressors and moral superiors of others. It makes no sense.

The Christian Nation Myth
~snip
As for the religious beliefs of the general population in pre and post revolutionary times, it wasn't nearly as Christian as most people think. Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society (a national organization of Christian lawyers) has admitted that there is little proof to support the claim that the colonial population was overwhelmingly Christian. "Not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders more deist than Christian," Buzzard wrote, "but the actual number of church members was rather small. Perhaps as few as five percent of the populace were church members in 1776" (Schools They Haven't Got a Prayer, Elgin, Illinois David C. Cook Publishing, 1982, p. 81). Historian Richard Hofstadter says that "perhaps as many as ninety percent of the Americans were unchurched in 1790" (Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, New York Alfred A. Knopf, 1974, p. 82) and goes on to say that "mid-eighteenth century America had a smaller proportion of church members than any other nation in Christendom," noting that "in 1800 [only] about one of every fifteen Americans was a church member" (p. 89). Historian James MacGregor Burns agrees with these figures, noting that "(t)here had been a `very wintry season' for religion every where in America after the Revolution" (The American Experiment Vineyard of Liberty, New York Vintage Books, 1983, p. 493). He adds that "ninety percent of the people lay outside the churches."

Historians, who deal with facts rather than wishes, paint an entirely different picture of the religious composition of America during its formative years than the image of a nation founded on "biblical principles" that modern Bible fundamentalists are trying to foist upon us. Our founding fathers established a religiously neutral nation, and a tragedy of our time is that so many people are striving to undo all that was accomplished by the wisdom of the founding fathers who framed for us a constitution that would protect the religious freedom of everyone regardless of personal creed. An even greater tragedy is that they many times hoodwink the public into believing that they are only trying to make our nation what the founding fathers would want it to be. Separation of church and state is what the founding fathers wanted for the nation, and we must never allow anyone to distort history to make it appear otherwise.
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so then, how did your founding fathers know what rights God wanted for people? Official Sock Puppet Welcoming Committee,well said bro,most of the noble prize winners agree with you.

sorry my American friend i dont agree with Niels Bhor,i agree with Einstein.

mikeey
 
Inalienable simply means that the rights are incapable of being surrendered. The rights are self-evident whether God exists or not.

Maybe some need God to tell them what is right and wrong, justified or not justified, alienable or inalienable ...

... but others don't.
 
mikeey said:
so then, how did your founding fathers know what rights God wanted for people?
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They didn't. They just wrote down what they imagined or presumed a good God would want or insist upon.
 
American said:
If God is removed from the minds of the People, then the protection of inalienable rights is also removed. For then government determines what your rights are.
Click to expand...

The bible doesn't say anything about rights.. so why does God belong in this conversation?

And the government does determine what your rights are and more importantly, what your rights are not.. My position is that the government more than often obstructs personal liberty than creates it..
 
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any person can do whatever they want regaurdless of wether or not it is included as a right under the constitution (or god for that matter)

if god somehow created rights why didn't he just make it so humans were physically incapable of commiting sin, or is that a right in and of itself?
 
Badfish420 said:
any person can do whatever they want regaurdless of wether or not it is included as a right under the constitution (or god for that matter)

if god somehow created rights why didn't he just make it so humans were physically incapable of commiting sin, or is that a right in and of itself?
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What would be the point?
 
Haven't read the entire thread, but parts of it were funny..

I don't know how anybody can say Jesus was an advocate for their idea of rights...

Somebody cited the 10 Commandments.. Those don't state rights or what is permissible, they tell you what to do and not do. They are authoritative, and that is the opposite of granting you liberty..

Jesus advocated social order.. not government.. Maybe he was an anarchist, you don't know.

But IMO, I think if people and communities did live according to the social order that Jesus did preach and practice, then government wouldn't even be necessary. The poor would be feed, nobody would be homeless, elders would be respected, and children cared for. Why would anybody want or need a government in that society?
 
SheWolf said:
IMO, I think if people and communities did live according to the social order that Jesus did preach and practice, then government wouldn't even be necessary. The poor would be feed, nobody would be homeless, elders would be respected, and children cared for. Why would anybody want or need a government in that society?
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The only things Jesus did was feed the multitude, bless the poor, walk on water, drive money changers out of the temples, preach, stop stone throwers, and commit suicide. He could have avoided it by recanting. He didn't feed the poor, or find shelter for the homeless, just said it was wrong, or so the myth goes.

There's a mile of difference between saying (preaching) and doing.

The closest to your ideal kind of government would be the Amish, but their lives are static, and they don't seem to have much fun.

ricksfolly
 
SheWolf said:
Haven't read the entire thread, but parts of it were funny..

I don't know how anybody can say Jesus was an advocate for their idea of rights...

Somebody cited the 10 Commandments.. Those don't state rights or what is permissible, they tell you what to do and not do. They are authoritative, and that is the opposite of granting you liberty..

Jesus advocated social order.. not government.. Maybe he was an anarchist, you don't know.

But IMO, I think if people and communities did live according to the social order that Jesus did preach and practice, then government wouldn't even be necessary. The poor would be feed, nobody would be homeless, elders would be respected, and children cared for. Why would anybody want or need a government in that society?
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So you think government is about feeding the poor. Thanks.
 
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