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Without God, there are no inalienable rights

American

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If God is removed from the minds of the People, then the protection of inalienable rights is also removed. For then government determines what your rights are.
 

American

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so then, how did your founding fathers know what rights God wanted for people?
Why don't try asking an educated question? This isn't the basement, spud. Go read the Bible and educate yourself. If you read the writings of the founders, you wouldn't be asking such a question.
 

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There are no human rights in the Bible. When people say things like this, I'm forced to question whether they've ever read the Bible for themselves.
I question people who can't find any rights in the Bible. Try the Ten Commandments to start, then read about who set those commandment. Life and property are easily found in those commandments. I'm not here to do your research for you.
 

spud_meister

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Why don't try asking an educated question? This isn't the basement, spud. Go read the Bible and educate yourself. If you read the writings of the founders, you wouldn't be asking such a question.
where does the bible mention everyone has a right to bear arms, or a trial by jury, free speech? none of these things are in the bible. And you think the founding fathers writings prove anything? that seems to be the logic that it is because they say so, i bet you i can find british documents about the war of independence that mention god is on their side too, god is only mentioned in the founding documents 'cause it was the custom of the day to assume god was on your side, and that by saying so often enough, people would believe it, the fact is, these "inalienable" rights are just as much the construct of man as any other document by any other country, religious or secular, and sincerely doubt god is going to smote anyone who takes them away from you.


and i'll leave you with a song that demonstrates some of my argument
 

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where does the bible mention everyone has a right to bear arms, or a trial by jury, free speech? none of these things are in the bible. And you think the founding fathers writings prove anything? that seems to be the logic that it is because they say so, i bet you i can find british documents about the war of independence that mention god is on their side too, god is only mentioned in the founding documents 'cause it was the custom of the day to assume god was on your side, and that by saying so often enough, people would believe it, the fact is, these "inalienable" rights are just as much the construct of man as any other document by any other country, religious or secular, and sincerely doubt god is going to smote anyone who takes them away from you.


and i'll leave you with a song that demonstrates some of my argument
I thought I asked you to get educated. You think posting Youtube is a rebuttal? And you prove my point, by making the rights of men the constructs of man. Without God, they aren't inalienable.
 

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Correct. They are not inalienable. The "inalienable" rights include the right to life, yet you have the death penalty, the right to liberty, yet you imprison more of your population than any other democracy, and the "pursuit of happiness", which is such a nebulous concept that it is impossible to quantify.
 
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Your Star

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I think the founders words came from a more humanist thought process. That everyone received these rights on the basis of just being human, not that God had ordained these rights upon to man. Especially since God is so many different things to different people.
 

spud_meister

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I thought I asked you to get educated. You think posting Youtube is a rebuttal? And you prove my point, by making the rights of men the constructs of man. Without God, they aren't inalienable.
:lol: and you question my rebuttal skills.

you have no proof that these rights are endowed by god except that it says so.
 

marduc

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by making the rights of men the constructs of man. Without God, they aren't inalienable.
So Atheists don't have rights? Or do we just lose out on the inalienable part, and ours can be taken away?
 
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Jetboogieman

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Saying that the constitution was "ordained by god" and all that jazz is just silly.

Brave souls with a vision wrote those words and forged a nation. Brave souls stormed the beaches at Normandy. To say it was all god, says that people had no choice in the matter of the US.

Humans actions are humans actions.
 

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Try the Ten Commandments to start, then read about who set those commandment.
The Ten Commandments? Let's look at the Ten Commandments, then.

Exodus 20 said:
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 Do not have any other gods before me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Well. We certainly didn't get the freedom of religion from the Ten Commandments, but we can hardly expect that from a religion, now can we? We also have God punishing people for the sins of their parents-- even for their great-great-grandparents-- which is widely considered to be a violation of human rights. Our Founding Fathers certainly rejected this notion.

Exodus 20 said:
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
We didn't get the freedom of speech from the Ten Commandments. Jesus later goes on to say that what goes into our mouths does not make us unclean (contradicting Jewish dietary laws) but that what comes out of our mouths makes us unclean.

Exodus 20 said:
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
This doesn't make any mention of rights, and further states that foreigners are to be held to Jewish religious laws regardless of their own religious beliefs. Certainly, this Commandment imposes a restriction upon our actions that has nothing to do with respecting the rights of others.

Exodus 20 said:
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
Nope. Nothing about human rights here. At least this Commandment doesn't violate any.

Exodus 20 said:
13 You shall not murder.
Finally, a Commandment that might actually apply to human rights! Unfortunately, God's definition of "murder" does not include any of the war crimes he orders his worshippers to commit, from the murder of innocent civilians to the wanton destruction of property.

Exodus 20 said:
14 You shall not commit adultery.
Funny, when I say this should be illegal I'm accused of being a bloody-minded tyrant and generally meddling with peoples' personal lives. If there's a human right in here, it's obviously not one recognized by the rest of the world.

Exodus 20 said:
15 You shall not steal.
Hey, this one could be the basis for the right to property. Except this doesn't apply to taxation or eminent domain, and Jesus exhorts us to "render unto Caesar". On the other hand, I can't really think of any other instance where God violates the right of property or commands his worshipers to.

Exodus 20 said:
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Assuming that this is a prohibition of perjury rather than gossip, this could be construed as pertaining to the right to due process. The right to a jury trial? That's English common law. Doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible.

Exodus 20 said:
17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
More support for property. Also more support for slavery.

Life and property are easily found in those commandments.
Maybe, but there isn't a damn thing about liberty which most people believe is a prerequisite to "human rights". The ideas that you incorrectly attribute to the Bible originated thousands of years later, in the minds of secular human philosophers, and with only the loosest possible inspiration from Biblical values. Regardless of whether or not God is necessary for inalienable human rights to exist, it is clear that those human rights did not come from the God of the Bible.
 

Goshin

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where does the bible mention everyone has a right to bear arms, or a trial by jury, free speech?
Actually Spud, those general principles are indeed found in the Bible to some degree. I don't have chapter and verse memorized, but I can dig them up and give it to you if you want.
 

spud_meister

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Actually Spud, those general principles are indeed found in the Bible to some degree. I don't have chapter and verse memorized, but I can dig them up and give it to you if you want.
that'd be good, i can't remember having read any references to them in there, but it's been a while since i flicked through my bible, and i'm not sure where it is.
 

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that'd be good, i can't remember having read any references to them in there, but it's been a while since i flicked through my bible, and i'm not sure where it is.
K. Might take a day or two, I'm going to be kinda busy and I'll have to do some research.
 

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that'd be good, i can't remember having read any references to them in there, but it's been a while since i flicked through my bible, and i'm not sure where it is.
Jesus himself said that if you didn't own a sword, you should sell your clothes to buy one. I can't come up with anything for the others, though.
 

spud_meister

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Jesus himself said that if you didn't own a sword, you should sell your clothes to buy one. I can't come up with anything for the others, though.
i doubt that was literal, and anyway, he also later says "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword"
 

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i doubt that was literal, and anyway, he also later says "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword"
I take it literally, because it bears none of the hallmarks of parable or allegory, but rather is part of a speech that seems to offer practical advice instead.
 

Andalublue

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I take it literally, because it bears none of the hallmarks of parable or allegory, but rather is part of a speech that seems to offer practical advice instead.
He also explicitly requires people to give to the poor, not as voluntary charity, but as an obligation. Welfare state anyone?

Luke 6:30
"Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."
 

spud_meister

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I take it literally, because it bears none of the hallmarks of parable or allegory, but rather is part of a speech that seems to offer practical advice instead.
i found my bible :)

from my reading of it, he tells this to his apostles, who go and buy two swords, and he says "it is enough".

he doesn't seem to be advocating the bearing of arms, and from the reading i've been doing, the word that sword can be translated from also may meen knife or dirk, so he could be telling his apostles (factoring the preceding verse) to be prepared, as he'll no longer be with them.
 

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Inalienable rights don't exist. Rights only exist if you have power to protect them. Blacks were stripped of all their "inalienable rights" until countless blood was shed to end slavery.
 
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