Why Should Liberals Like Libertarian Ideas?

[Carjosse]

I beg to differ. American Democrats are closer to the rest of the world's Conservative, not America's liberals, which shouldn't even be capitalized because it isn't a party, yet, probably never will be.

Well Democrats are what Americans refer to as liberals even though they are not.

 

[Carjosse]

so you mean you are for force and coercion?

No, I believe government has a role to play in society such as to protect rights and freedoms and change them as needed. They also have the responsibility to give everyone equal opportunity and to create legislation for the general good of society.

 

[Summerwind]

Well Democrats are what Americans refer to as liberals even though they are not.

Liberals don't make that mistake, we are perfectly aware of the slide of Democratic Party to the middle right. I agree though that many use liberal to slur anyone who's opinion is to the left of their own.

 

[Master PO]

No, I believe government has a role to play in society such as to protect rights and freedoms /////////////////and change them as needed. They also have the responsibility to give everyone equal opportunity and to create legislation for the general good of society.

correct...government duty is to protect rights.........We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

government does not create rights, and they dont have the power to create what you or other people think as good..........becuase that is subjective........what you think is good, ..i might not like.

government has 18 powers only, and none of them involve your personal life.

 

[Carjosse]

Liberals don't make that mistake, we are perfectly aware of the slide of Democratic Party to the middle right. I agree though that many use liberal to slur anyone who's opinion is to the left of their own.

I am yet to see any large call for anything that would be proposed by liberals in other countries.

 

[Master PO]

Liberals don't make that mistake, we are perfectly aware of the slide of Democratic Party to the middle right. I agree though that many use liberal to slur anyone who's opinion is to the left of their own.

so the word...liberal is a slur..now?

 

[Carjosse]

correct...government duty is to protect rights.........We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

government does not create rights, and they dont have the power to create what you or other people think as good..........becuase that is subjective........what you think is good, ..i might not like.

government has 18 powers only, and none of them involve your personal life.

Rights are created by the people, for the people, and secured by the people. Governments can change rights as society changes just as law does; all laws are made for the general good of society and to the will of society otherwise it is not rule by the people.

 

[Cyrylek]

Well considering he calls American Liberals Social Democrats he does not know what he is talking about.

Be so kind, name one (1) significant difference between Exhibit A: American "liberal" and Exhibit B: European (say, Swedish or German) social democrat?

 

[Master PO]

Rights are created by the people, for the people, and secured by the people. Governments can change rights as society changes just as law does; all laws are made for the general good of society and to the will of society otherwise it is not rule by the people.

that is incorrect, NO RIGHTS IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAVE EVER BEEN CREATED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

 

[Summerwind]

I am yet to see any large call for anything that would be proposed by liberals in other countries.

Perhaps I misuderstand, but I do know that we are pretty much ignored by both sides, I wonder if that's why you don't see those calls, because it's like a tree falling in the woods, it does make a noise, but no one is listening.

 

[Carjosse]

Be so kind, name one (1) significant difference between Exhibit A: American "liberal" and Exhibit B: European (say, Swedish or German) social democrat?

I don't see a large push for: socialized healthcare, nationalization of some industries so society can benefit more directly, consumer protection, price controls, institution of new social programs not just restructuring, multiculturalism, etc. I see some support this but not represented or politically active.

 

[Cyrylek]

the utopian vision of libertarianism.

What "utopian vision"? What is utopian about (a) having certain moral compass (freedom of choice is important), and (b) recognizing limitations of presumed actionable knowledge in complex systems like our economy and society at large?

You are probably talking about the most puerile "everything and now" fringe - like some members of the Libertarian Party - but that's like judging Democrats by Lyndon LaRouche.

If anything, libertarianism (classical liberalism) is aggressively ANTI-utopian. Nobody know "how it all should be done". Nobody has should be given the right to coerce masses according to his or her "vision". Set people free, diversify risks, learn from experience.

 

[Carjosse]

that is incorrect, NO RIGHTS IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAVE EVER BEEN CREATED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

In my country our rights were officially created by the government in 1982, before that it was just common law. Canada and France have their rights created by the people. Ours also uses the reverse of your distribution of powers, provinces are delegated only certain powers and the federal government gets all residual powers. We have altered our constitution numerous times as society changed. The American system is inefficient and barely functional, it does not change with society and fails to reflect it because you removed the power of the people.

 

[Master PO]

in my country our rights were officially created by the government in 1982, before that it was just common law. Canada and france have their rights created by the people. Ours also uses the reverse of your distribution of powers, provinces are delegated only certain powers and the federal government gets all residual powers. We have altered our constitution numerous times as society changed. The american system is inefficient and barely functional because of your horrible structure.

well in america rights are not created by the people, rights are endowed, by a higher power, ........this is u.s. Law......u.s..code.

Rights are recognized by the constitution, via a list of them, those not listed fall under the 9th amendment.

The bill of rights for america, places restrictions on the federal government that they shall create no law, infringing on the rights of the people.

 

[Master PO]

in my country our rights were officially created by the government in 1982, before that it was just common law. Canada and france have their rights created by the people. Ours also uses the reverse of your distribution of powers, provinces are delegated only certain powers and the federal government gets all residual powers. We have altered our constitution numerous times as society changed. The american system is inefficient and barely functional, it does not change with society and fails to reflect it because you removed the power of the people.

this is also incorrect, the people have been given more power thru voting, with the 17th amendment.....giving us more democracy which is evil.

Democracy is the most vile form of government--james madison.

America was created with republican government or mixed government, ...not democracy.

 

[Cyrylek]

I don't see a large push for: socialized healthcare, nationalization of some industries so society can benefit more directly, consumer protection, price controls, institution of new social programs not just restructuring, multiculturalism, etc. I see some support this but not represented or politically active.

I certainly see a "large push" for socialized healthcare (were not Medicaid and Medicare trademark achievements of American "liberalism"? is the ACA chopped liver?).

I am not aware of any recent attempts to nationalize any industries by the current European social-democrats. Some did that in the past, it was a miserable failure, almost without exception. Even the oil-cushioned Norway had re-privatized most everything.

I am not sure what your definition of "consumer protection" is, but ambulance chasing lawyers have no better friends in the world than the "liberals" in office.

"Price controls"? I said "social democrats", not "idiots".

The American "liberals" operate in a different environment, but ideologically they are nearly identical to the European social democrats, including Labour and Socialist parties that have abandoned erstwhile radicalism.

In any case, outside of the inertial overlap on social issues, American "liberalism" is virtually opposite to classical liberalism ("libertarianism"), and personally I always cringe when our social-democrats/moderate socialists (many of whom are decent people, and certainly are a legitimate part of political process) are called liberals. They are many things, but not that.

 

[Carjosse]

well in america rights are not created by the people, rights are endowed, by a higher power, ........this is u.s. Law......u.s..code.

Rights are recognized by the constitution, via a list of them, those not listed fall under the 9th amendment.

The bill of rights for america, places restrictions on the federal government that they shall create no law, infringing on the rights of the people.

That is the exact issue, the rights are not representative of changing society. There is no such thing as a higher power in law the people are the highest power. We also allow for reasonable limits of rights and freedoms otherwise you get abuse of a right or freedom which is another thing America lacks.

 

[Carjosse]

this is also incorrect, the people have been given more power thru voting, with the 17th amendment.....giving us more democracy which is evil.

Democracy is the most vile form of government--james madison.

America was created with republican government or mixed government, ...not democracy.

The job of government is to benefit society which cannot be done without democracy and the voice of the people.

 

[Master PO]

that is the exact issue, the rights are not representative of changing society. There is no such thing as a higher power in law the people are the highest power. We also allow for reasonable limits of rights and freedoms otherwise you get abuse of a right or freedom which is another thing america lacks.

sorry, but our declaration of independence is u.s.code.........law.

Rights in that document are endowed , ......not given by the people.......in democracies, rights are created by the people....america is not a democracy.

 

[Master PO]

the job of government is to benefit society which cannot be done without democracy and the voice of the people.

oh, where is that delegated power in the u.s. Constitution?

 

[Carjosse]

oh, where is that delegated power in the u.s. Constitution?

It is the responsibility of all societies and governments in the world otherwise it has failed as a government.

 

[Carjosse]

sorry, but our declaration of independence is u.s.code.........law.

Rights in that document are endowed , ......not given by the people.......in democracies, rights are created by the people....america is not a democracy.

It is alw and that is why it needs to change with society as other law does. That is the flaw of American government, it is not controlled by the people.

 

[Master PO]

it is the responsibility of all societies and governments in the world otherwise it has failed as a government.

our government has dealgated powers.....it does not have unlimited power to do whatever it desires.

 

[Master PO]

it is alw and that is why it needs to change with society as other law does. That is the flaw of american government, it is not controlled by the people.

to be controlled only by the people would be democracy, the founders did not want democracy, because they simply stated it is not a stable and good government.

ARTICLE 4 SECTION. 4. CONSTITUTION

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.


not democratic..

 

[Fisher]

The job of government is to benefit society which cannot be done without democracy and the voice of the people.

yes it can, you just have a very subjective view of what is a benefit to society. People benefit from government in non-democratic societies--in fact, a lot of them are totally dependent on their government. Democracy is just a shinier version of bread and circuses. Don't kid yourself into believing that Washington DC cares more about what is in the best interest of society than it does what is in the best interest of those who work there.