Why not outlaw abortion

[ajn678]

I have only been here for a couple of months or so, and the vast amount of ignorance and vitriol spewed primarily Liberal users is extraordinary. From how the world will end because of global warming, how Donald Trump will start a holocaust against Muslims and illegal immigrants if elected President, and the countless attacks against Christianity.... it is quite sad.

Lets review the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Lets review the 5th and 14th Amendment:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Abortion is not a constitutional right. The right to life though is the founding principle of our country.

Can you show me the section of the Constitution or laws of our land that qualifies a fetus or a non born entity as a person?

 

[ajn678]

This is complete and utter horse crap.

I'm actually a moral person. Have you seen what goes on in an abortion clinic? Planned Parenthood is an immoral organization that breaks the law and strongly persuades young women to have abortions.

Liberals are the ones that are anti-women. When you support women turning themselves against their own bodies, that is the real outrage. When you support and advocate contraceptives and drugs are cause serious health dangers to women.....that is really damning.

I see you still believe the PP videos were evidence of them doing anything wrong.

 

[Bucky]

Can you show me the section of the Constitution or laws of our land that qualifies a fetus or a non born entity as a person?

When is a unborn baby/fetus a baby?

Does a fetus feel pain when it is being butchered like a piece of meat?

But lets remember, abortion is a constitutional right! You demented sickos support abortion under any circumstance. I refuse to support murder! Democrats refused to ban late term abortions in 2003 when by most would agree, the fetus is no longer a fetus and is definitely viable.

 

[minnie616]

...

Lets review the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
...
Abortion is not a constitutional right. The right to life though is the founding principle of our country.

And you are mistaken on both counts.

Men ... When used in the DOI described men ...not blacks, not women , and not the unborn.
It took Constitional amendments to declare blacks and women as persons.

However , when the Supreme Court decided Roe v Wade they had the history of women and blacks and the fact they are persons.
The SC decided the founders did not view the unborn as persons and the SC rejected the fetal right to argument.



Roe vs Wade decided against the fetal right to life augment.
Here are three of the key points in their decision.:

Three key points:

A fetus in not a PERSON under U.S. law.
Persons have rights under the Constitution, and it is clear that the authors of the Constitution and its amendments did not regard fetuses as persons.

In order to say that fetuses are persons under U.S. law, the Constitution would have to be amended to say so. Therefore the intentional killing of a fetus does not have same legal status as the killing of a person.

States can create laws to protect citizens from harmful practices, and it can ban medical procedures that are harmful. When abortion was initially banned by most states, it was a dangerous procedure. Medically, it is now safer than childbirth. Therefore there is no longer a good reason for states to ban it as a medical practice.

Since 1891, the U.S. has recognized a right to privacy in some "zones" of activity, which means that individuals can make decisions and act upon them without informing other people and without state interference. (Example: Your discussions with your lawyer are private and confidential.) The court has previously recognized that adult women have a privacy right when it comes to contraception and reproduction.



Conclusion: Because fetuses are not legally protected and abortion is a safe medical procedure protected by privacy rights, adult women have the right to receive an abortion in the first six months of pregnancy, and states can only interfere where the interference is appropriate to the woman's health.

Roe v Wade - edited text

 

[ajn678]

When is a unborn baby/fetus a baby?

Does a fetus feel pain when it is being butchered like a piece of meat?

But lets remember, abortion is a constitutional right! You demented sickos support abortion under any circumstance. I refuse to support murder! Democrats refused to ban late term abortions in 2003 when by most would agree, the fetus is no longer a fetus and is definitely viable.

Where did I say I supported late term abortions?

 

[minnie616]

When is a unborn baby/fetus a baby?
...
But lets remember, abortion is a constitutional right! You demented sickos support abortion under any circumstance. I refuse to support murder! Democrats refused to ban late term abortions in 2009 when by most would agree, the fetus is no longer a fetus and is definitely viable.

Yes, abortion is a right.
Women have a right to privacy regarding contraception and abortion within the parameters of Roe v Wade.

Abortion is not murder. Abortion is the ending of pregnancy be it natural or induced.
Induced abortion within the parameters of Roe v Wade is legal.

Less than .08 percent of all legal abortions occur past the age viability.

These are the extreme cases where the fetus is not viable ( so malformed that it will be stillborn or will not live more than a few minutes or hours). When a fetus is dead or dying within the womb it can cause a life threatening infection in the woman and it needs to be removed.

The other extreme cases are when irreparable damage major bodily function will occur ( such as stoke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down, kidney damage if the pregnancy continues. There are only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in tall of the US who preform these legal clinic abortions for these extreme cases.

In 2008 Kansas had one of these clinics.
They kept records of all abortions that occurred at or after 22 weeks gestation.

There 323 abortions that took place in Kansas in 2008.

131 were because the fetus was not viable. ( it was either stillborn or so malformed it would never survive.)
The other 192 abortions were because irreparable damage major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

See page 8 for 2008 Kansas abortion stats at or after 22 weeks gestation.

http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/08itop1.pdf

 

[Bucky]

Yes, abortion is a right.
Women have a right to privacy regarding contraception and abortion within the parameters of Roe v Wade.

Abortion is not murder. Abortion is the ending of pregnancy be it natural or induced.
Induced abortion within the parameters of Roe v Wade is legal.

Less than .08 percent of all legal abortions occur past the age viability.

These are the extreme cases where the fetus is not viable ( so malformed that it will be stillborn or will not live more than a few minutes or hours). When a fetus is dead or dying within the womb it can cause a life threatening infection in the woman and it needs to be removed.

The other extreme cases are when irreparable damage major bodily function will occur ( such as stoke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down, kidney damage if the pregnancy continues. There are only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in tall of the US who preform these legal clinic abortions for these extreme cases.

In 2008 Kansas had one of these clinics.
They kept records of all abortions that occurred at or after 22 weeks gestation.

There 323 abortions that took place in Kansas in 2008.

131 were because the fetus was not viable. ( it was either stillborn or so malformed it would never survive.)
The other 192 abortions were because irreparable damage major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

See page 8 for 2008 Kansas abortion stats at or after 22 weeks gestation.

http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/08itop1.pdf

Minnie, would you consider Dr. Kermit Gosnell a doctor or a murderer?

 

[minnie616]

Minnie, would you consider Dr. Kermit Gosnell a doctor or a murderer?

He may have started his practice as a doctor but it is clear
Gosnell was a murderer.

He did not follow the law. He was convicted of killing born babies. Once born ,he then murdered them.
Gosnell induced labor before the fetus was given the fatal injection.

It is the law that any fetus over 20 weeks gestation must no longer have a heartbeat before the extraction/ contractions procedure can start.

That law is there to prevent so called " botched abortions" and or " born alive" babies.

Unfortunately Gosnell was a criminal he accepted patients with viable babies that was against the law and he induced labor allowing them to be born instead of following the law and making sure the pregnancy was terminated before giving meds to start the contractions.

 

[JayDubya]

There is no difference between Kermit Gosnell and his fellow abortionists.

 

[AGENT J]

I believe in human equality though you have made it clear that you do not.

No matter how many times you repost this lie your won words prove it to be factually false. You views hold the pregnant woman as a lesser. You want to factually infringe on her current legal and human rights. Luckily, the constitution , rights and laws don't wan't that and they don't lend support to your vile views.

 

[Bucky]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

I believe life starts at conception. With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier. Heartbeats can be detected within the first 3-4 weeks of pregnancy.

Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester. Most Americans agree abortion should be illegal in the second trimester. Unfortunately the Democratic Parties position on abortion is clear: "We support a woman's right to chose with no restrictions." The Democrats position on abortion has veered so left that many democrats during supported roe v. wade when it was decided would cringe.

 

[AGENT J]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

1.) I believe life starts at conception. With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier. Heartbeats can be detected within the first 3-4 weeks of pregnancy.
Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

2.) At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester. Most Americans agree abortion should be illegal in the second trimester.
3.) Unfortunately the Democratic Parties position on abortion is clear: "We support a woman's right to chose with no restrictions." The Democrats position on abortion has veered so left that many democrats during supported roe v. wade when it was decided would cringe.

1.) Abortion is about TWO lives, not ONE. And one of those lives resides inside another, its to the life it resides in (sometimes very very small some times very large but always a risk), it is not viable until 20/21 weeks and there is factually no way to bann abortion without violating the legal and human rights of the mother or allowing unlimited abortion without violating the human and legal rights of the ZEF, I find those facts impossible to ignore and could never support a complete ban.

2.) Moving RvW could be something I support and I have said many times if it was up to me id move it to 20/21 weeks, its super rare abortions happen that lates anyway and its typically for the health of the mother or child. I would legislate fetal rights at that point making them more clear but exceptions after 20/21 weeks would still exist.

3.) I actually only know two people that feel that way (none in real life) and it is most certainly not Democrats position at all the way you state it.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

I believe life starts at conception. With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier. Heartbeats can be detected within the first 3-4 weeks of pregnancy.

Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester. Most Americans agree abortion should be illegal in the second trimester. Unfortunately the Democratic Parties position on abortion is clear: "We support a woman's right to chose with no restrictions." The Democrats position on abortion has veered so left that many democrats during supported roe v. wade when it was decided would cringe.

"Life" begins, perhaps, in the biological sense, but not the value of that life is not equal to the value of an autonomous person. A fetus is not a person. As it develops, it gradually gains more value, but during the first trimester, no one really believes it is equal to a person.

 

[HowardBThiname]

No matter how many times you repost this lie your won words prove it to be factually false. You views hold the pregnant woman as a lesser. You want to factually infringe on her current legal and human rights. Luckily, the constitution , rights and laws don't wan't that and they don't lend support to your vile views.

You are correct but JW will never admit it.

 

[year2late]

Minnie, would you consider Dr. Kermit Gosnell a doctor or a murderer?

Have you found any pro-choicers on this board that believe the Gosnell was NOT a murderer?

 

[roguenuke]

It becomes my business when we have an aging population and the replacement rate cannot keep up. But then again, sick people like you would just love to round up the elderly, infirm, and all the other "undesirables" and eliminate the "burden" Hitler loved people like you.

Bringing unwanted, and poor babies into this world is not going to be a positive when it comes to the aging workforce. Unwanted children, particularly those parents can't afford, generally do not do nearly as well when it comes to helping the nation, economy.

A better option would be to encourage those who can afford and do want children to have them.

 

[roguenuke]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

I believe life starts at conception. With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier. Heartbeats can be detected within the first 3-4 weeks of pregnancy.

Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester. Most Americans agree abortion should be illegal in the second trimester. Unfortunately the Democratic Parties position on abortion is clear: "We support a woman's right to chose with no restrictions." The Democrats position on abortion has veered so left that many democrats during supported roe v. wade when it was decided would cringe.

Except there are restrictions on abortion in most states (between 20 weeks and viability is where the vast majority of states limit abortions).

 

[calamity]

No matter how many times you repost this lie your won words prove it to be factually false. You views hold the pregnant woman as a lesser. You want to factually infringe on her current legal and human rights. Luckily, the constitution , rights and laws don't wan't that and they don't lend support to your vile views.

Some people post in a bubble of denial. But, I'm sure he'll tell us he knows better and that his misogyny is actually a love for equality. It's rather interesting to see the cognitive dissonance though, IMO.

Why the lifers choose to hold the ZEF in such high regard while ignoring actual born humans baffles me to no end. But, it is an interesting phenomena to observe.

 

[prometeus]

I have only been here for a couple of months or so, and the vast amount of ignorance and vitriol spewed primarily Liberal users is extraordinary...

:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo
Oh the irony...

 

[prometeus]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

And that is your right.

I believe life starts at conception.

No one gives a crap. Live your life by your beliefs and stay out of other people's lives.

With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier.

Really? You said you believe it stars at conception, now you are saying that it starts earlier? Do you actually know anything about this?

Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester.

Look up contradiction in a dictionary.

 

[minnie616]

Minnie, I respectfully disagree.

I believe life starts at conception. With the advancement of technologies, doctors are determining life starts much earlier. Heartbeats can be detected within the first 3-4 weeks of pregnancy.

Abortion should be illegal in all cases - rape, incest, it does not matter. A life is a life whether the life was on purpose, by accident, etc.

At minimum abortion should be illegal past the first trimester. Most Americans agree abortion should be illegal in the second trimester. Unfortunately the Democratic Parties position on abortion is clear: "We support a woman's right to chose with no restrictions." The Democrats position on abortion has veered so left that many democrats during supported roe v. wade when it was decided would cringe.

And I respectfully disagree as the woman's Health and yes her very life may be at risk.
Therefore , I will not support a law or a government that bans elective abortions nor would I support a law or government that would force a woman against her will to have an abortion even if the baby would be so malformed it would cost the taxpayers millions of dollars to care for the child.

Elective abortion is a personal choice...one which should be left up to the pregnant woman , since it affects her body , her life, her future, her family now or her future family.

 

[Bucky]

And I respectfully disagree as the woman's Health and yes her very life may be at risk.
Therefore , I will not support a law or a government that bans elective abortions nor would I support a law or government that would force a woman against her will to have an abortion even if the baby would be so malformed it would cost the taxpayers millions of dollars to care for the child.

Elective abortion is a personal choice...one which should be left up to the pregnant woman , since it affects her body , her life, her future, her family now or her future family.

I have never found 1 doctor that said an abortion would be necessary in order to save the mother's life.

The moral obligation of any doctor is to heal and nurture life, not destroy and hurt it.

 

[prometeus]

I have never found 1 doctor that said an abortion would be necessary in order to save the mother's life.

Really? How many have you been to and for what reason?

 

[Lursa]

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

You'll note that your text states 'persons born or naturalized'. The unborn are a) obviously not born or naturalized and b) legally not considered persons (which is also obvious from the text you quoted) as they dont fit those descriptions and do not have any rights.

Here is the definition legal definition of person as recognized in the US:

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

This is not an arbitrary or random definition. "All men are created equal" from the DOI has not always been extended to all people. In decades past, the Supreme Court examined blacks and women and in their decisions, found both equal to men, and therefore recognizing their/our equal rights. The Supreme Court also examined the unborn in the same context, and with full knowlege of previous historical decisions, and did *not* find the unborn equal, and thus they have no rights recognized.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)I have never found 1 doctor that said an abortion would be necessary in order to save the mother's life.
2.)The moral obligation of any doctor is to heal and nurture life, not destroy and hurt it.

1.) LMAO well it happens daily so your personal experience is meaningless
2.) your subjective morals are yours and not fact. Also your opinion of what abortion is, is also yours and not fact.