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Why Men Won't Marry You

LowDown

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Why men won't marry you | Fox News

Where have all the husbands gone?

That’s a question Peter Lloyd tackles in a series in London’s Daily Mail about Britain’s marriage rate, which is at its lowest level since 1895. “The state of matrimony is not just ailing. It is dying out faster than a mobile phone battery,” Lloyd writes. “For an army of women, Mr. Right is simply not there, no matter how hard they look for him.”

Things are no better this side of the Atlantic. According to Pew Research Center, the share of American adults who’ve never been married is at an historic high—and men are more likely than women to have never made it down the aisle (23% vs. 17% in 2012).

The bottom line is that marriage is a very very bad deal for men. They are being smart to avoid it.
 
I never really hear married men say anything good about marriage. There is a lot that is good about it according to the research. It leads to a longer, happier, more wealthy life and the quality of sex is also reportedly far better. However, the branding of marriage is that it sucks. Maybe marriage needs to get a better PR agent.
 
Why men won't marry you | Fox News

The bottom line is that marriage is a very very bad deal for men. They are being smart to avoid it.

...And women.

What, you think all these women are just standing at the alter all tear-y eyed? They're not in any rush either.

The end of a marriage is usually much worse for a man, but the marriage itself is usually much worse for the woman -- thus why women initiate most divorces.

Both of these things are due to broken gender dynamics and sexism.

During a marriage -- which in this era of wage decline, usually includes two working spouses -- women are expected not just to work, but also to do all the "women's work" (everything in the home, and everything to do with children). In effect, she's working 2 or 3 times harder than he is, and probably being paid less for it. Sometimes this happens even when the man wants to help -- employers are bigoted against women of a certain age, or mothers, in large part because other people's unreliable husbands force them to try to do everything at once, and sometimes that means they have to dodge work.

After a marriage, before a court that still considers men to be essentially wallets for the wilting, delicate little flowers that women are, a man is lucky if he walks away with a place to live, 10 bucks in his account, and anything better than abysmal credit. While either spouse is equally likely to be a psychotic asshole who wants to ruin their ex, women are far more tolerated for doing so in a court system that kind of thinks of them as children, and men as expendable.

So fix our broken gender conversation and maybe people will be less commitment-phobic.

We could start with not pretending for one second that women don't have better things to do too, and both sexes have their reasons for that.

We could also start by doing away with this nonsense that men are feral dogs who just want to **** everything, unless you rope them in with forced commitment. That is BS. Firstly, people have had non-marital sex since the beginning of time, and they still did even in the repressive marriage heyday that so many people seem to pine for. Shotgun weddings, back alley abortions, and quiet affairs were all very big business back in those days. And secondly, men are human beings who desire connection and love as much as anyone else is.

To be honest, in my own generation, it seems men want commitment more than women do. There is some preliminary research that actually supports that observation.

Why is that? Well, I would be shocked if the bad aspects of marriage for women weren't a part of it...
 
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...And women.

What, you think all these women are just standing at the alter all tear-y eyed? They're not in any rush either.

The end of a marriage is usually much worse for a man, but the marriage itself is usually much worse for the woman -- thus why women initiate most divorces.

Both of these things are due to broken gender dynamics and sexism.

During a marriage -- which in this era of wage decline, usually includes two working spouses -- women are expected not just to work, but also to do all the "women's work" (everything in the home, and everything to do with children). In effect, she's working 2 or 3 times harder than he is, and probably being paid less for it. Sometimes this happens even when the man wants to help -- employers are bigoted against women of a certain age, or mothers, in large part because other people's unreliable husbands force them to try to do everything at once, and sometimes that means they have to dodge work.

After a marriage, before a court that still considers men to be essentially wallets for the wilting, delicate little flowers that women are, a man is lucky if he walks away with a place to live, 10 bucks in his account, and anything better than abysmal credit. While either spouse is equally likely to be a psychotic asshole who wants to ruin their ex, women are far more tolerated for doing so in a court system that kind of thinks of them as children, and men as expendable.

So fix our broken gender conversation and maybe people will be less commitment-phobic.

We could start with not pretending for one second that women don't have better things to do too, and both sexes have their reasons for that.

We could also start by doing away with this nonsense that men are feral dogs who just want to **** everything, unless you rope them in with forced commitment. That is BS. Firstly, people have had non-marital sex since the beginning of time, and they still did even in the repressive marriage heyday that so many people seem to pine for. Shotgun weddings, back alley abortions, and quiet affairs were all very big business back in those days. And secondly, men are human beings who desire connection and love as much as anyone else is.

To be honest, in my own generation, it seems men want commitment more than women do. There is some preliminary research that actually supports that observation.

Why is that? Well, I would be shocked if the bad aspects of marriage for women weren't a part of it...

well theres your problem, if you women honestly think that marriage is doomed
 
Why would anyone even want to marry a man who wants a happiness contract instead of marrying for love and commitment? I am not someone's cleaning lady, sex toy (let me think about that one ) , shrink and mother. I am someone's wife, friend, equal partner.
 
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well theres your problem, if you women honestly think that marriage is doomed

We women?

I came down on the side of commitment, dude. I won't ever have the piece of paper -- I don't consent to the government having that much control over my love life. But I have complete control over whether I wind up with a man who expects me to do everything. I chose not to, so I didn't.

However, it is understandable that many women see this trend and decide to opt out entirely. In America in particular, egalitarian men aren't extremely common quite yet. In some parts of the country, they're practically unicorns. A lot of women have never met one.

Why the hell would they get married to someone who's going to expect them to do everything by themselves? That seems like a damn bum deal.
 
We women?

I came down on the side of commitment, dude. I won't ever have the piece of paper -- I don't consent to the government having that much control over my love life. But I have complete control over whether I wind up with a man who expects me to do everything. I chose not to, so I didn't.

However, it is understandable that many women see this trend and decide to opt out entirely. In America in particular, egalitarian men aren't extremely common quite yet. In some parts of the country, they're practically unicorns. A lot of women have never met one.

Why the hell would they get married to someone who's going to expect them to do everything by themselves? That seems like a damn bum deal.

and what parts of the country would that be?
 
Why men won't marry you | Fox News



The bottom line is that marriage is a very very bad deal for men. They are being smart to avoid it.

Marry someone who has a job, spend equal time and sacrifice raising your kids, and you have nothing to worry about even if you get divorced. 90% of custody arrangements are resolved outside the courts. Men who actually want custody get it the majority of the time even if they have to fight it out before a judge.
 
and what parts of the country would that be?

Most of small-town America.

I have a friend who's going through a really unfortunate thing right now.

She's with a guy who is, really and truly, a damn nice dude.

He's living in what I'd call the semi-city (not quite suburb, not quite city). But he's from a small town in South Dakota.

My friend is a city girl, and into social issues -- including women's issues, among others. He takes a genuine interest in it. He doesn't know much about it, but he really does want to understand her perspective.

Over the last few months, I've been hearing an awful lot about how rigid he can be in his expectations. How he'll say he wants to compromise on things -- and I completely believe him -- but at the end of the day, he sort of expects her to give more than she gets.

Why?

Well, probably because that's how things were in his family when he was growing up. His mother gave up pretty much everything she wanted to do, to meet the standards his father set. And every couple in his little town was exactly the same way.

I think he's a genuinely nice person who really would like to update his thinking into the 21st century.

But it's very clear that he grew up with a sexist Stepford dynamic, where the little woman genuflects to the man whose needs are apparently more important. He himself has never met a man who was any different. That's why he is the way he is.

And my friend is very concerned about what things will be like if they someday get married and have kids. Rightfully so. He's approaching 30 -- not a baby. His habits will be hard to change. And after a year and a bit, they don't seem to have made any headway.

When she tells me she has second thoughts about this very nice man, I have a hard time disagreeing with her. She's a city girl -- in the city, no less -- and she can find herself any number of non-sexist men. Why marry a project when there is every likelihood you'll wind up being the little woman working 3 times harder for half the pay?
 
Most of small-town America.

I have a friend who's going through a really unfortunate thing right now.

She's with a guy who is, really and truly, a damn nice dude.

He's living in what I'd call the semi-city (not quite suburb, not quite city). But he's from a small town in South Dakota.

My friend is a city girl, and into social issues -- including women's issues, among others. He takes a genuine interest in it. He doesn't know much about it, but he really does want to understand her perspective.

Over the last few months, I've been hearing an awful lot about how rigid he can be in his expectations. How he'll say he wants to compromise on things -- and I completely believe him -- but at the end of the day, he sort of expects her to give more than she gets.

Why?

Well, probably because that's how things were in his family when he was growing up. His mother gave up pretty much everything she wanted to do, to meet the standards his father set. And every couple in his little town was exactly the same way.

I think he's a genuinely nice person who really would like to update his thinking into the 21st century.

But it's very clear that he grew up with a sexist Stepford dynamic, where the little woman genuflects to the man whose needs are apparently more important. He himself has never met a man who was any different. That's why he is the way he is.

And my friend is very concerned about what things will be like if they someday get married and have kids. Rightfully so. He's approaching 30 -- not a baby. His habits will be hard to change. And after a year and a bit, they don't seem to have made any headway.

When she tells me she has second thoughts about this very nice man, I have a hard time disagreeing with her. She's a city girl -- in the city, no less -- and she can find herself any number of non-sexist men. Why marry a project when there is every likelihood you'll wind up being the little woman working 3 times harder for half the pay?

If she feels that way, and he feels that way, they'd probably simply be better off splitting up. They've clearly got completely different expectations coming into the thing, and that is unlikely to end well.

In any eventuality, there's nothing wrong with the traditional dynamic. It can work very well. You've just got to find a partner who's actually on board with the idea, and plans to stick around.

Unfortunately, a lot of people - particularly on the more Liberal side of the spectrum - just aren't. They come into the union with the (quite frankly) schizophrenic expectation of being able to treat it like a perfectly equitable business partnership built almost exclusively upon a foundation of gooey feelings, and are shocked when they discover that doesn't actually work very well for most people.
 
If she feels that way, and he feels that way, they'd probably simply be better simply splitting up. They've clearly got completely different expectations coming into the thing, and that is unlikely to end well.

In any eventuality, there's nothing wrong with the traditional dynamic. It can work very well. You've just got to find a partner who's actually on board with the idea, and plans to stick around.

Unfortunately, a lot of people - particularly on the more Liberal side of the spectrum - just aren't. They come into the union with the (quite frankly) schizophrenic expectation of being able to treat it like a perfectly equitable business partnership built almost exclusively upon a foundation of gooey feelings, and are shocked when they discover that doesn't actually work.

Yup, I agree.

I think a couple things have to be true for the traditional dynamic to work well, and in a way that is non-manipulative.

1. Yes, that has to be what they both want.
2. They have to be in an economic situation that permits it. In other words, one spouse works, one spouse does not. Because otherwise, the woman is doing 3 jobs while the man is only doing one.

The problem is that a lot of men who are not in that economic position still expect their working wife to do everything, as if they were in that position. That is not a partnership. It's a recipe for resentment.

I think my friend's problem is understandable, from both their perspectives. He went into it saying he wanted this updated, city-fied version of a relationship. She believed him. No reason why she shouldn't have -- he is a genuine and nice person, and he wasn't lying. I think he did want that.

It just turns out he doesn't want it enough to actually change -- and also, she didn't fully know the extent of how he thought when she first met him, obviously. And that is something that they only could have found out through trial and error. Hell, that's what dating is for, right?

I am not saying either of them are really to blame. I just hope they will see this for what it is before either of them gets into a situation they can't easily get out of: a basic incompatibility.

Some couples don't recognize that incompatibility, which is how you wind up with the situations I listed above (woman doing all the work), and also a lot of other bad situations for both the man and the woman.

I don't think there is anything wrong with marrying partly for love, as long as you are also marrying partly for, as you say, a business partner. You do have to navigate life together, and it's important you be on the same page about what kind of life you actually want to have. It is easier to keep going through the rough times if you love them too. But love alone ain't enough.
 
Yup, I agree.

I think a couple things have to be true for the traditional dynamic to work well, and in a way that is non-manipulative.

1. Yes, that has to be what they both want.
2. They have to be in an economic situation that permits it. In other words, one spouse works, one spouse does not. Because otherwise, the woman is doing 3 jobs while the man is only doing one.

The problem is that a lot of men who are not in that economic position still expect their working wife to do everything, as if they were in that position. That is not a partnership. It's a recipe for resentment.

I think my friend's problem is understandable, from both their perspectives. He went into it saying he wanted this updated, city-fied version of a relationship. She believed him. No reason why she shouldn't have -- he is a genuine and nice person, and he wasn't lying. I think he did want that.

It just turns out he doesn't want it enough to actually change -- and also, she didn't fully know the extent of how he thought when she first met him, obviously. And that is something that they only could have found out through trial and error. Hell, that's what dating is for, right?

I am not saying either of them are really to blame. I just hope they will see this for what it is before either of them gets into a situation they can't easily get out of: a basic incompatibility.

Some couples don't recognize that incompatibility, which is how you wind up with the situations I listed above (woman doing all the work), and also a lot of other bad situations for both the man and the woman.

Exactly. My father made his desires pretty clear before he and my mother tied the knot. While she didn't exactly promise to be on board with all of them, she wasn't exactly opposed either.

Things just kind of evolved of their own accord from there. He made her a deal after I was born that he would take care of bringing in the money if she stayed home at least until we were old enough for school, and in the meantime she simply happened to discover homeschooling, and the idea appealed to her enough that she decided to go ahead and do that full time instead of working.

The dynamic's only really gotten screwed up since the economy bottomed out in '08 (and my father's heart condition reared its ugly head), leading my father to have to take a pay cut at a new company, and my mother to have to go back to work in a new career.

While she would honestly be happy enough not working at all, she does resent the way it has basically doubled her workload now that she is. I can also understand why my father isn't the most eager to leap up and make up the difference - he's a fifty something year old man with a heart condition who already works like sixty hours a week.

It's just kind of an awkward situation all the way around. :shrug:

It is also one that could likely have been mitigated somewhat if they'd taken more time to build equity and take better care of themselves along the way, and started off on a somewhat more solid financial foundation to begin with. I'm more than happy to wait a little while to get everything figured out before I settle down for that exact reason.

I don't think there is anything wrong with marrying partly for love, as long as you are also marrying partly for, as you say, a business partner. You do have to navigate life together, and it's important you be on the same page about what kind of life you actually want to have. It is easier to keep going through the rough times if you love them too. But love alone ain't enough.

My parents married mostly for love, admittedly. They were flat broke for the first decade or so of their marriage as such.

While I suppose there is something to be said for that - in that they made it through, and were able to be more or less happy in doing so - I ultimately agree. Love alone isn't enough.

You can't have a marriage without it, of course. However, there has to be some form of deeper commitment behind that to hold a couple together even during the times when they might not be feeling that love so strongly as they were initially.

Love, after all, is fleeting, and fickle. It often comes and goes over the course of long marriages.
 
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Exactly. My father made his desires pretty clear before he and my mother tied the knot. While she didn't exactly promise to be on board with all of them, she wasn't exactly opposed either.

Things just kind of evolved of their own accord from there. He made her a deal after I was born that he would take care of bringing in the money if she stayed home at least until we were old enough for school, and in the meantime she simply happened to discover homeschooling, and the idea appealed to her enough that she decided to go ahead and do that full time instead of working.

The dynamic's only really gotten screwed up since the economy bottomed out in '08 (and my father's heart condition reared its ugly head), leading my father to have to take a pay cut at a new company, and my mother to have to go back to work in a new career.

While she would honestly be happy enough not working at all, she does resent the way it has basically doubled her workload now that she is. I can also understand why my father isn't the most eager to leap up and make up the difference - he's a fifty something year old man with a heart condition who already works like sixty hours a week.

It's just kind of an awkward situation all the way around. :shrug:

It is also one that could likely have been mitigated somewhat if they'd taken more time to build equity and take better care of themselves along the way, and started off on a somewhat more solid financial foundation to begin with. I'm more than happy to wait a little while to get everything figured out before I settle down for that exact reason.



My parents married mostly for love, admittedly. They were flat broke for the first decade or so of their marriage as such.

While I suppose there is something to be said for that - in that they made it through, and were able to be more or less happy in doing so - I ultimately agree. Love alone isn't enough.

You can't have a marriage without it, of course. However, there has to be some form of deeper commitment behind that to hold a couple together even during the times when they might not be feeling that love so strongly as they were initially.

Love, after all, is fleeting, and fickle. It often comes and goes over the course of long marriages.

That is another aspect of it; it is ideal, if you are going to go the traditional route, for you to build up an over-abundance of resources. Sooner or later, age will catch up with one or the other, and when you only have one partner doing (or able to do) each thing, one partner going out of commission turns into a big fiasco.

Truth is, it's hard for me to think of what your parents might do to get out of this non-ideal situation. I can see either of them feeling resentful no matter what they do. They seem to have gotten through worse and that bodes well for them, but it's definitely not ideal.

I mean, there's a third option here (between your parents' going the traditional route while under-prepared, and delaying having a relationship into one's 30's). This, I think, is the crux of what the difference is between a traditional relationship, and a sexist one. Because although I don't think you believe me when I say it, they are not the same thing.

What's wrong with starting off sharing all the loads, until you get to such a place where you can partition them off?

Nothing. But some men don't want to do that because they have a rigid expectation, and they expect the woman to be the one who gives things up.

This is why I refer to my friend's boyfriend's thinking as sexist, and not traditional. He is expecting something for nothing. I don't think maliciously. He just grew up seeing men have that expectation, and seeing women meet it. When you've spent your whole life not having to compromise, it's a hard habit to get into. I understand that from a different perspective; the adjustment I'm making after several years of living alone. But it's sexist all the same.

You can be an egalitarian traditionalist. Ideally, you'd like to do X, but if X is presently not feasible, you will do Y instead until such a time as it is.

Or hell, vise versa. I've been in that situation myself, actually (where money is plentiful, but time to execute necessary tasks is not).

What's important is flexibility and working together. A lot of American men, especially from smaller towns, don't have that. And that is why American women don't really want to marry them.

It isn't necessarily because many of them are traditional. It's because they're sexist, and they don't want to give what they get.
 
i totally disagree with the OP's premise: that a decline in the rate of marriage is a bad thing

my son just turned 30. he made his first million long before that milestone. and he is focused on establishing a secure future for himself and his eventual family. and he is equally intent not to squander half of what he has worked for by making a bad marital decision
my daughter has not yet achieved the wealth of her older brother, but at 26 she is on her way. and becoming well established financially is very important to her
many - not most, but many - of their friends are similarly situated; building careers as the foundation to having strong families
i think they are being smart ... but that OP article would insist otherwise

it is the young of poorer and less educated families who tend to get married early. in contrast, it is the more educated and financially well who are inclined to wait longer to get married and have kids. so, this trend, as described in the OP, would seem to be a positive one, letting us know that our kids are smarter than we blue hairs were. in the 50's definitely, and well into the 60's somewhat, girls were expected to get married right out of high school. at least the ones - the less educated - not planning on college. and soon they had kids. and by the 70's our nation's economy had changed such that no longer could one blue collar job sustain a family. so moms had to enter the work force. but at that time, they could find jobs with only a high school education - or less. not any more

and then there is another factor at work. a less positive one. we have dis-incentivized marriage for the struggling poor. that single woman with kids can qualify for LOTS more financial assistance because she has no husband. why get married to the baby father if it is going to mean less financial eligibility
 
i totally disagree with the OP's premise: that a decline in the rate of marriage is a bad thing

my son just turned 30. he made his first million long before that milestone. and he is focused on establishing a secure future for himself and his eventual family. and he is equally intent not to squander half of what he has worked for by making a bad marital decision
my daughter has not yet achieved the wealth of her older brother, but at 26 she is on her way. and becoming well established financially is very important to her
many - not most, but many - of their friends are similarly situated; building careers as the foundation to having strong families
i think they are being smart ... but that OP article would insist otherwise

it is the young of poorer and less educated families who tend to get married early. in contrast, it is the more educated and financially well who are inclined to wait longer to get married and have kids. so, this trend, as described in the OP, would seem to be a positive one, letting us know that our kids are smarter than we blue hairs were. in the 50's definitely, and well into the 60's somewhat, girls were expected to get married right out of high school. at least the ones - the less educated - not planning on college. and soon they had kids. and by the 70's our nation's economy had changed such that no longer could one blue collar job sustain a family. so moms had to enter the work force. but at that time, they could find jobs with only a high school education - or less. not any more

and then there is another factor at work. a less positive one. we have dis-incentivized marriage for the struggling poor. that single woman with kids can qualify for LOTS more financial assistance because she has no husband. why get married to the baby father if it is going to mean less financial eligibility

This is a good point, and it's actually verified statistically.

It's often bandied about that the divorce rate is 40+ percent. Well, depends what demographic you're in.

In actuality, the young, who are poorer and less educated, are driving those numbers up. They have a divorce rate over 50%.

Those who marry after the age of 25, generally more educated and more financially secure, have a divorce rate of only 20% or so. It is especially good for your odds if the woman is older and educated.

The best thing you can do for the stability of your marriage is solidify yourself before you have one.
 
That is another aspect of it; it is ideal, if you are going to go the traditional route, for you to build up an over-abundance of resources. Sooner or later, age will catch up with one or the other, and when you only have one partner doing (or able to do) each thing, one partner going out of commission turns into a big fiasco.

Truth is, it's hard for me to think of what your parents might do to get out of this non-ideal situation. I can see either of them feeling resentful no matter what they do. They seem to have gotten through worse and that bodes well for them, but it's definitely not ideal.

I mean, there's a third option here (between your parents' going the traditional route while under-prepared, and delaying having a relationship into one's 30's). This, I think, is the crux of what the difference is between a traditional relationship, and a sexist one. Because although I don't think you believe me when I say it, they are not the same thing.

What's wrong with starting off sharing all the loads, until you get to such a place where you can partition them off?

Nothing. But some men don't want to do that because they have a rigid expectation, and they expect the woman to be the one who gives things up.

This is why I refer to my friend's boyfriend's thinking as sexist, and not traditional. He is expecting something for nothing. I don't think maliciously. He just grew up seeing men have that expectation, and seeing women meet it. When you've spent your whole life not having to compromise, it's a hard habit to get into. I understand that from a different perspective; the adjustment I'm making after several years of living alone. But it's sexist all the same.

You can be an egalitarian traditionalist. Ideally, you'd like to do X, but if X is presently not feasible, you will do Y instead until such a time as it is.

Or hell, vise versa. I've been in that situation myself, actually (where money is plentiful, but time to execute necessary tasks is not).

What's important is flexibility and working together. A lot of American men, especially from smaller towns, don't have that. And that is why American women don't really want to marry them.

It isn't necessarily because many of them are traditional. It's because they're sexist, and they don't want to give what they get.


That's true. There certainly are men out there who are simply selfish, overly possessive and controlling pigs as well - expecting dual incomes, in addition to flawless "Stepford" quality wives and homes, while they sit around contributing nothing.

Women should look out for those kinds of men just as men should look out for their female counterparts.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the "third option" you mentioned. Hell, it's probably what you're going to wind up with either way regardless - at least at first - even if you take options one or two.

After all, it's not like the women you eventually meet in your thirties will have simply been sitting on their hands the whole time waiting for you. Undoubtedly, they'll have been cultivating their own prospects and life decisions in the meantime, which could either hurt or help your overall cause when you eventually wind up pooling your resources and histories together in marriage. Likewise, having a working wife might very well be a necessity for a couple that chooses to marry and pursue a family at a younger age.

Such arrangements, of course, require a certain degree of flexibility to make them work. However, I wouldn't say that it is necessarily impossible to still put them in a more "traditional" framework.

My parents have gone back and forth with it over the years. While she wasn't always (well, usually wasn't lol) a "domestic goddess," and he often didn't live up to the standard of "husband and father of year," they ultimately made things work.

I'd consider myself lucky to do half as well.
 
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Why men won't marry you | Fox News



The bottom line is that marriage is a very very bad deal for men. They are being smart to avoid it.
It never seemed like a good idea to me either. One of my friends that is married seems to be happy, him and his wife get along and work with one another. They also have a three year old, so that gives them a good reason to stick it out. When you put someone else ahead of you it seems to make other things seem so trivial.

However my other friend seems to be at odds with his wife, a lot. Over philosophical issues and issues of personal space.they seem to have very common interests but that's about it. She is in huge amounts off debt and he is moderately wealthy but he didn't become so until a year or two after their wedding.

Who knows it may work out.
 
That's true. There certainly are men out there who are simply selfish, overly possessive and controlling pigs as well - expecting dual incomes, in addition to flawless "Stepford" quality wives and homes, while they sit around contributing nothing.

Women should look out for those kinds of men just as men should look out for their female counterparts.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the "third option" you mentioned. Hell, it's probably what you're going to wind up with either way regardless - at least at first - even if you take options one or two.

After all, it's not like the women you eventually meet in your thirties will have simply been sitting on their hands the whole time waiting for you. Undoubtedly, they'll have been cultivating their own prospects and life decisions in the meantime, which could either hurt or help your overall cause when you eventually wind up pooling your resources and histories together in marriage. Likewise, having a working wife might very well be a necessity for a couple that chooses to marry and pursue a family at a younger age.

Such arrangements, of course, require a certain degree of flexibility to make them work. However, I wouldn't say that it is necessarily impossible to still put them in a more "traditional" framework.

My parents have gone back and forth with it over the years. While she wasn't always (well, usually[/I[ wasn't lol) a "domestic goddess," and he often didn't live up to the standard of "husband and father of year," they ultimately made things work.

I'd consider myself lucky to do half as well.


I think what makes this tough is that it so often appears in men -- or people generally -- who aren't really assholes.

My friend is not an idiot. I have a very low tolerance for idiots. And I like her boyfriend -- really. He's a nice human being...

...Who grew up with a 1950's mentality of the importance of a man's desires, versus the importance of a woman's.

He wants to be an egalitarian. He tries to be an egalitarian. I am not convinced he even knows he's doing it when he keeps trying to push more and more of the compromise onto her. It's subtle. It's not as though he simply said to her, "you will do things my way." It's an ongoing slide into an old way of thinking.

It's hard to dump a nice person who just isn't all that great at being with other people.

This is why the gender dynamics conversation needs nuance. It is not a situation of one just being an asshole. And that's usually the case. Although American men tend to straggle when it comes to understanding equal partnership, they are overwhelmingly decent men. In fact, I happen to think that when you find one who is also living in the 21st century, they are some of the best men in the world. It's just that there aren't as many of those as there should be.

This conversation is too often about men who are "pigs" and women who are "bitches." In reality, it is rarely about either of those things.

There's no "pig" or "bitch" in my friend's extremely common situation. Just crappy gender dynamics in a country that is struggling to fully modernize the way it sees the sexes.
 
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The main purpose of marriage is to protect women with children from being abandoned. Now that men can't use marriage as a tool to control women, there is little benefit to marriage for men, and not much more for women now that a non-spouse can be required to pay child support.
 
It should be mentioned that the housewife was a recent and short lived phenomena that was previously a privilege for the rich that temporarily trickled down to the middle class. On farms women did sorts of work in addition to child care and house cleaning. Women helped out with most other family businesses and if they had no farm or business they routinely worked outside the home. did work at home, took in boarders etc. Much of what we think we know about family life in the past applies only to the wealthy.
 
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In any eventuality, there's nothing wrong with the traditional dynamic. It can work very well. You've just got to find a partner who's actually on board with the idea, and plans to stick around.
And that's the root of all its problems. You don't - and can't - know how your partner is going to feel over the next several decades, and neither does your partner. No matter how sincere you feel today, it doesn't mean you can commit to something for the rest of your life.
 
Who wants to marry a man, anyway? Ugly, smelly, sweaty, horrible things they are. They don't even have proper tits.
 
The main purpose of marriage is to protect women with children from being abandoned. Now that men can't use marriage as a tool to control women, there is little benefit to marriage for men, and not much more for women now that a non-spouse can be required to pay child support.

Even if a man has a child with a woman it makes no sense for him to marry her. Without marriage he only owes child support.

Marriage for men is often a self-abnegating, soul-crushing affair.
 
I never really hear married men say anything good about marriage. There is a lot that is good about it according to the research. It leads to a longer, happier, more wealthy life and the quality of sex is also reportedly far better. However, the branding of marriage is that it sucks. Maybe marriage needs to get a better PR agent.

I know this is obviously anecdotal, but I've been married 8 years and I simply couldn't be happier. Being married is absolutely amazing and I love it and wouldn't want it any other way. If she's really your soul mate you're probably going to be pretty happy. There are plenty of happy married men.

For me marriage is all about the commitment. It's our vow that we have each other's backs no matter what.
 
I know this is obviously anecdotal, but I've been married 8 years and I simply couldn't be happier. Being married is absolutely amazing and I love it and wouldn't want it any other way. If she's really your soul mate you're probably going to be pretty happy. There are plenty of happy married men.

For me marriage is all about the commitment. It's our vow that we have each other's backs no matter what.

I think the main thing you need to be to be happily married is not to be a self righteous, egotist. Self righteous egotists seem to be self absorbed, and should never get into relationships at all. marriage or not.
 
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