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Why is government necessary?

i don't agree. i think that it would be much, much worse.

I think we would have to agree to disagree on that. I just don’t see how anarchist societies would’ve produced two world wars and a Holocaust costing millions of lives in a span of 50 years. Would things be chaotic like Somalia if the government suddenly collapsed? Absolutely. However, I am not talking about such a scenario. I am speaking of what anarchist thinkers like Proudhon proposed: a peaceful and gradual transition away from illegitimate hierarchy and centralized power, both political and economic. Such a transition would fill in the power vacuum.



we're basically discussing where we think the sweet spot is, and i don't see it happening in the bare bones direction.

Believe it or not, I am a pragmatist (it is true we do not have many of those in the anarchist movement). While I take issue with the authority of our State I do vote. I do believe in working through the state for reform. Proudhon did exactly this, and even voted with the statists/against his fellow anarchists if he believed it was the best decision.

While I cannot speak for Anarchon ( who I think is an anarchy-capitalist) my vision of anarchism that takes democracy to a more direct level. When I tell people I am a democrat they see me as normal. When I say I am also an anarchist they think I am radical.
 
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It's funny you say that. The town I live in has slowly been replacing all of its traffic lights with traffic circles. It's pretty nice.

And, what you think you know, you don't. A town experimentally turned off all of its traffic lights, and driving times were halved...



So do you really honestly mean to say that if we take away all traffic signs, traffic lights, speed limits, etc...and means of enforcement of those traffic laws, that everything will be fine? Everyone will drive like a perfect gentleman?
 
What do you view as the alternative? With the exception of some hunter-gatherer societies, hierarchies are found in every society in every time period, and are essential to many aspects of cultural survival.

Hunter gatherers had hierarchies too. They were just more fluid, kept in check by relationships. And if need be by violence.

This worked for us for a quarter of a million years.

Then we settled down and started storing food. This became a concentration of power. And provided the tools to grab and hold that power. Made war possible.

What we really need is to step back and look at what we have become. Keep the good and correct the bad.

Look at our systems and separate what we need from what some just want.

Stop lionizing addictive behaviors.

Hell, since it is addiction, "harness" the addicts by their addictions. They will lead, create wealth, because they are addicted. They will take what they can get. They don't have to be given whatever they want.

Think about that last for a minute. Particularly how you reacted to it personally.

Because its been a long time since we saw "natural" leader/follower relationships and a lot of research has been done to figure out how to manipulate followers. So if it sounded like blasphemy, its probably conditioning. We all have some.
 
And we call that government.

But, you are right that we can't just wave a magic wand. I've discussed the challenges several times in the thread so far. In any case, the first step is to figure out what right looks like...to reason out what the goal should be, even if we never reach it. I haven't seen anyone attack the morality of the non-aggression principle here yet. There have been at least some folks, regardless of their supporting it, admit that government is evil. From a moral standpoint, I think there is a clear winner.

If anyone has input on what philosophies are morally superior, whether they've been mentioned here or not yet, I'd love to hear it.

My philosophical input is that because aggressors will always exist, governments are necessary to mitigate that aggression. Therefore government actually reduces aggression/initiation of force against you.

Children, left to their own devices, would eat candy for every meal. Parents force them to eat vegetables anyway. Is this evil?
 
I think we would have to agree to disagree on that. I just don’t see how anarchist societies would’ve produced two world wars and a Holocaust costing millions of lives in a span of 50 years. Would things be chaotic like Somalia if the government suddenly collapsed? Absolutely. However, I am not talking about such a scenario. I am speaking of what anarchist thinkers like Proudhon proposed: a peaceful and gradual transition away from illegitimate hierarchy and centralized power, both political and economic. Such a transition would fill in the power vacuum.





Believe it or not, I am a pragmatist (it is true we do not have many of those in the anarchist movement). While I take issue with the authority of our State I do vote. I do believe in working through the state for reform. Proudhon did exactly this, and even voted with the statists/against his fellow anarchists if he believed it was the best decision.

While I cannot speak for Anarchon ( who I think is an anarchy-capitalist) my vision of anarchism that takes democracy to a more direct level. When I tell people I am a democrat they see me as normal. When I say I am also an anarchist they think I am radical.

What anarchist societies have existed?
 
Uh, because the strong will tyrannize the weak for starters. The only reason you can't kill your neighbor and steal his property is because we have the edifice of government.

/thread.
 
Countless. Anarchist societies have existed longer than monarchies and nation states.
Dinosaurs were around far longer than humans. Also: please name these societies.
 
Countless isn't an example...

And we have evolved from hunter gatherer clusters of family/clan allegences...

So, an example of an anarchist society?

I have already given an example: Twin Oaks Community. If you want more there is something called Google. It is pretty easy to use.
 
And…?





I have already answered two other people. If you want a full list it is a Google search away.
Hey, I have a great idea for you, if these societies actually exist and aren't a figment of your imagination then why don't you move there?

Oh yeah, because they're backwater **** holes compared to societies run by governments!

Your choice to live in an area with governments over one of these fictional anarchies pretty much makes the pro-government argument for us.
 
Countless. Anarchist societies have existed longer than monarchies and nation states.

Even "anarchist" societies have unspoken rules of acceptable behavior and consequences for not following them. Our household has a pretty democratic hierarchy. There are no written rules or consequences. But people still know when it's their turn to wash the dishes, take out the garbage, etc....

Even biker gangs and street gangs have rules of acceptable behavior within the gang. Break them, and there will be consequences....

There are no functional societies with no rules and no consequences. Just because it's not written doesn't mean they are not there.
 
I have already given an example: Twin Oaks Community. If you want more there is something called Google. It is pretty easy to use.

TwinOaks? The community where working hours are mandated? Where the type of work done is restricted? Where television is banned? Where if you work outside the community your pay isn't your pay?

Sounds kinda like a non anarchy....

Next example?
 
*You support the existence of government
*You claim government is a necessary evil
*A necessary evil is still evil
.'. You support evil

Lying is when you tell falsehood. Unfortunately for your new claim, the above is truthful.

Of course the opposite or absence of a necessary evil is not goodness or justice or any equivalent.
 
TwinOaks? The community where working hours are mandated? Where the type of work done is restricted? Where television is banned? Where if you work outside the community your pay isn't your pay?

Sounds kinda like a non anarchy....

Next example?

Dont forget it is just a small village sized community. Any type of govt/economic system can work on that level where everyone knows everyone.
It is also within an larger society that will intervene if there is ever criminal actions. Ie murder/theft/rape. The monetary system is provided by an actual govt structure outside the community. etc etc...
The question was about an anarchistic society not anarchistic village within a society that has an actual govt.
 
I don't think anyone is "fair game," as I don't initiate force. Government is. You support precisely "the system" that maintains such a disparity of force that those whom are weak and cannot defend themselves are exploited.

Also, do not say that I have "a system," as it's a lack of one. That's the equivalent of telling an atheist he has a religion. And as for your dilemma, the answer is that no one will mediate it unless you both agreed to it. And I can't tell you who would stop you from claiming it, as it's none of my business, unless it's my land you're trying to take. If I claim and improve some land that "has been left desolate for decades", good luck trying to convince me that I should give it to you.

Why would someone need to convince you. Eventually someone gains money and power, uses that money and power to kill you and take your land, which is used to further gain money and power. Over time, someone will challenge that person, wage war on the group in power, kill and depose them. And the cycle continues.

I'm sure you'll argue government does all those things (true - see the United States government), and in fact that band of thugs is just "government" by another name. And that's kind of the point, really. The alternative to no government isn't peace - never has been. In fact the alternative to no government isn't in fact no "government" just a different way to order society, or what you perceive of as better "government" which is presumably smaller than the existing forms of "government."

Just think of your land dispute. If someone with a band of thugs starts killing landowners and claiming he's the rightful owner, this non-government community will organize to prevent further improper takings, and/or take concrete steps to reverse previously improper takings. But what standard does it use to determine if that guy who killed your neighbor and seized the land was improper, versus him claiming land that was legitimately his and he is merely forcibly protecting HIS rights? Who knows, but what we do know is a standard has to be developed, and as it's enforced becomes the 'law' or its equivalent, because it's a uniform standard the community uses to mediate disputes. That is aka 'government.' It might be formal or informal. As a community grows, it will become more necessary to formalize those standards, versus the nearest 10 guys who are asked to help defend the landowner making up the rules with each request.

Maybe over time those 10 guys get a reputation for being reliable and fair, and when land disputes arise, the community comes to trust their judgment, and they become the equivalent of the local judges. Etc.....

Point is especially in modern society, if government didn't exist, we'd soon create something that looks exactly like "government" in its place, because we must. Randall promises to do a job Mary $1,000. After it's done Mary refuses to pay, arguing Randall messed up the job and so she's not going to pay but $500. You might say, well, if Randall did a bad job, eventually people will quit hiring him! Or, alternatively, soon enough Mary can't get anyone to work for her because she doesn't pay her bills. But how do we know who was in the right in that dispute between Randall and Mary? That's actually VALUABLE information in a community. Who should they trust? Mary OR Randall? If it's Mary, the community should get together and refuse work for her unless paid up front. If Randall, quit hiring him because he's a liar and incompetent. That MATTERS! It would help whoever helps resolve this dispute if Randall and Mary agreed to what the job was and the standards and we have....contracts!! But who looks at the contract and then says, 'Sorry Randall, but you didn't do what you promised. Mary was correct!' Well, trusted members of the community will do that....aka judges, government. Etc. We could do examples all day.
 
I have already given an example: Twin Oaks Community. If you want more there is something called Google. It is pretty easy to use.

Goodness, I looked them up and they have what is AKA "government" complete with rules about work weeks, no TV, but they are 'allowed' internet and movies, residents are invited in based on community standards, etc. And the fact that they can exist in peace without someone from outside the boundaries of this plot of land depends heavily on the larger community in VA, and the United States. They sell their wares presumably utilizing public roads, and access the internet, and get electricity and gasoline, etc. from the nearby government-run communities. Most instructive is it's a very small community of a few dozen individuals, all of them who volunteer for this place. The idea that it's expandable to a country with 350 million isn't legitimate. Might be a nice place to live, but it's no more than that - really akin to a decent neighborhood with a VERY active set of covenants and a board to enforce them.
 
Why would someone need to convince you. Eventually someone gains money and power, uses that money and power to kill you and take your land, which is used to further gain money and power. Over time, someone will challenge that person, wage war on the group in power, kill and depose them. And the cycle continues.

I'm sure you'll argue government does all those things (true - see the United States government), and in fact that band of thugs is just "government" by another name. And that's kind of the point, really. The alternative to no government isn't peace - never has been. In fact the alternative to no government isn't in fact no "government" just a different way to order society, or what you perceive of as better "government" which is presumably smaller than the existing forms of "government."

Just think of your land dispute. If someone with a band of thugs starts killing landowners and claiming he's the rightful owner, this non-government community will organize to prevent further improper takings, and/or take concrete steps to reverse previously improper takings. But what standard does it use to determine if that guy who killed your neighbor and seized the land was improper, versus him claiming land that was legitimately his and he is merely forcibly protecting HIS rights? Who knows, but what we do know is a standard has to be developed, and as it's enforced becomes the 'law' or its equivalent, because it's a uniform standard the community uses to mediate disputes. That is aka 'government.' It might be formal or informal. As a community grows, it will become more necessary to formalize those standards, versus the nearest 10 guys who are asked to help defend the landowner making up the rules with each request.

Maybe over time those 10 guys get a reputation for being reliable and fair, and when land disputes arise, the community comes to trust their judgment, and they become the equivalent of the local judges. Etc.....

Point is especially in modern society, if government didn't exist, we'd soon create something that looks exactly like "government" in its place, because we must. Randall promises to do a job Mary $1,000. After it's done Mary refuses to pay, arguing Randall messed up the job and so she's not going to pay but $500. You might say, well, if Randall did a bad job, eventually people will quit hiring him! Or, alternatively, soon enough Mary can't get anyone to work for her because she doesn't pay her bills. But how do we know who was in the right in that dispute between Randall and Mary? That's actually VALUABLE information in a community. Who should they trust? Mary OR Randall? If it's Mary, the community should get together and refuse work for her unless paid up front. If Randall, quit hiring him because he's a liar and incompetent. That MATTERS! It would help whoever helps resolve this dispute if Randall and Mary agreed to what the job was and the standards and we have....contracts!! But who looks at the contract and then says, 'Sorry Randall, but you didn't do what you promised. Mary was correct!' Well, trusted members of the community will do that....aka judges, government. Etc. We could do examples all day.

You have some nice insights in here. However, you're leaving out an option. That option is to realize that the initiation of force is wrong, and to stop supporting it. Right now, over a critical mass of people support it, so it exists in a way the individual is powerless to do much. If less than a critical mass of people support it, it can at least be mitigated. So, the reason that these evils keep happening that you folks say are unavoidable, happen simply because you believe they are unavoidable. Stop believing that...stop supporting that, and eventually it can at least be mitigated. This is the ONLY way.
 
Of course the opposite or absence of a necessary evil is not goodness or justice or any equivalent.

It's actually a faulty premise. While he believes it to be true, it isn't. It is evil, but it is not necessary.
 
You can not make a decision for another person "voluntarily." If you mean by, "community as a whole", universal consent, then voting has no use. It's interesting to see the difficulty collectivists have when they initially try to process these ideas. You all always do it through the lens of the collective, and do not realize it should be viewed through the lens of the individual.

We do not all live in our own island bubbles. Even anarchists (other than anarcho-capitalists) understand this. That is why most anarchists may be critical of 'representative democracy' but they endorse direct democracy. Life is about compromise. That is as true in a community as it is in our own individual lives. If one does not wish to work cooperatively and is willing to make compromises then there is always the hermit life. But living in a community with others requires sacrifice. One cannot have their cake and eat it too.





That wasn't namecalling. Read what he said before that. I was using his own structure as a rhetorical device...not that statist isn't an accurate descriptor. Why would a statist think supporting the existence of a state is a derogatory connotation?

I admit I did not read the previous poster's comments first.

It is not that he would consider being referred to as a 'statist' derogatory (although, being a conservative, maybe he would...) but it is the context. Just like how the way he called you an anarchist was derogatory even if the descriptor was accurate.
 
The problem is, from where does the referee get his authority?

Through a direct democratic process authorized by the community.

In your vision of anarchism, how does the dispute get resolved?

Realize if it is universally consented amongst the involved parties, the referee has no reason to exist. If it is not universally consensual, it is immoral.

What is the it you refer to?
 
My philosophical input is that because aggressors will always exist, governments are necessary to mitigate that aggression. Therefore government actually reduces aggression/initiation of force against you.

Government doesn't reduce it. It institutionalizes it. It guarantees that you will have force initiated against you.

Children, left to their own devices, would eat candy for every meal. Parents force them to eat vegetables anyway. Is this evil?

No. They are objects of their own creation. Parents own their children. Government doesn't create you, though they act like they do.
 
So do you really honestly mean to say that if we take away all traffic signs, traffic lights, speed limits, etc...and means of enforcement of those traffic laws, that everything will be fine? Everyone will drive like a perfect gentleman?

I don't care to predict chaotic systems with many sensitive variables. But, that's exactly what happened in this experiment. If you wish to ponder about what-ifs and what-would-be's, consider that, absent the stifling of innovation via government and regulation, we might not even use roads.
 
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