Why is CRT a hot button issue and how did it become one?

[Tahuyaman]

Horrifying! Can you provide something to substantiate the claim that you made with such certainty?

Nothing that you would understand. It looks like drank the kool-aid.

 

[nucky9]

Nothing that you would understand. It looks like drank the kool-aid.

Well I certainly don't understand what you wrote, above, but if you have any evidence, I'd love to hear it. In my limited review, there doesn't seem to be any one accepted source describing CRT, but rather there seems to be a fluid and continuous discussion throughout the literature. Given that, I obviously don't expect that you have read them all (who has the time, mirite?) but are there any particular papers putting forward CRT theories that you found especially concerning?

 

[Captain Adverse]

You are missing the point. If you agree that wealth leads to better outcomes, then a group that is disproportionately poor will necessarily have disproportionately worse outcomes, assuming all else is equal (which I don't believe it is - and neither do you, having admitted that overt racism still exists). So, the question becomes why/how did that group become disproportionately poor? Systemic racism is an attempt to explain this, and it is an explanation I find compelling. To be honest, my concentrating on economic factors is an oversimplification anyway, since there are many other factors. For instance, in Canada, it is more or less accepted that outcomes are poorer for indigenous who enter the justice system, relative to other groups, even when the crimes are identical. A quick search found some evidence of this here and here.

I never said that "wealth leads to better outcomes." Don't put words in my mouth. I was simply mentioning that here in the USA, the wealthy as a "class" don't typically give a rats patootie what another wealthy person's race or gender is. There will always be individuals of that class who are "racist" of course. But in any case, I don't hold that all racism exists in any single race. I hold that anyone of any race can be racist towards others of a different race.

As for "disproportionately" poor? Isn't that typically how it works regardless of race when one group has held power over another, either by conquest or other system of dominance. But it is also relative, depending on the metrics one uses. For example, using this Census data from 2019:

Blacks and Hispanics, reached historic lows in their poverty rates in 2019. The poverty rate for Blacks was 18.8%; for Hispanics, it was 15.7%....The Asian poverty rate of 7.3% was also the lowest on record.
The 2019 poverty rate of 7.3% for non-Hispanic Whites was not statistically different than the previous low. ,...Non-Hispanic Whites made up 59.9% of the total population but only 41.6% of the population in poverty

https://www.census.gov/library/stor...-hispanics-reached-historic-lows-in-2019.html

So while one acknowledges that the poverty rates of Black and Hispanics were 2 times that of Whites when compared by individual population, White's still make up 41.6% of the total population in poverty. That does not equate to "systemic racism," just the normal kinds of differences one would find in any cultural mix where one race has maintained numeric as well as socio-political dominance.

IMO it would be a more apt example of systemic racism to look at a society like South Africa, where for a period of time a MINORITY dominated the MAJORITY of the population, and maintained power through actively over systemic racism.

You seem to equate systemic racism with some sort of system where anyone can do anything they want to a specified minority, and everyone is complicit in it. That is not what systemic racism is describing. It is describing the 'death by a thousand cuts' phenomenon, in which a group is allowed to play the same game, but they are exposed to extra barriers along the way. Again, I think the majority of those hurdles are due to the disadvantages caused by poverty, but justice system outcomes (for indigenous at least, and I bet similar research shows the same for blacks in the US) show there are other factors as well.

Yes I am sure one would like us to believe this new definition of racism. IMO the Left loves to modify the meaning of words. Once upon a time there was "systemic racism," and we used to call it Institutional Racism. The laws openly delineated different rights and privileges for different races, and generally members of the White race believed they were superior to all other races. Of course in China, the Chinese believed THEY were superior, and so did the Japanese, and I am fairly certain that the Zulu did in South Africa until the British and Boers showed up with higher technology. I don't think you could have found a place on the Earth where one group or another didn't thnk they were "superior" to everyone else. (Maybe the Inuit?)

But times change, and so can people. So I dispute that the USA currently exhibits "systemic racism." Instead we are talking about "culture," and like the "whiteness" poster provided by the Smithsonian...that culture works for anyone who wants to succeed in the USA regardless of race.

Meanwhile I think it is BS designed to divide us into conflicting groups when using ANY form of Critical THEORY. That is just another tool of Marxism to create social conflict and achieve the "ideal Socialist State" (some idealistic form of Communism.)

 

[nucky9]

Yes I am sure one would like us to believe this new definition of racism. IMO the Left loves to modify the meaning of words.

Eh, I'm not too fussed about the name, personally. You can call it whatever you want - you either agree there is a problem and work to find solutions, or you don't. If you have just been arguing semantics this whole time, then all I can say is... ok?

I think it is BS designed to divide us into conflicting groups, just another tool of Marxism to create social conflict and achieve the "ideal Socialist State" (some idealistic form of Communism.)

Ah thanks for this - based on the message I originally quoted, I had thought there might be the possibility for some informed debate here. I was starting to suspect otherwise, and confirmation is always nice.

 

[Captain Adverse]

...Ah thanks for this - based on the message I originally quoted, I had thought there might be the possibility for some informed debate here. I was starting to suspect otherwise, and confirmation is always nice.

If you don't know the foundations of both Critical Theory (and this it's offshoot CRT) in Marxist ideology, then I urge you to "inform" yourself about The Frankfurt School, and it's Institute for Social Research which transferred to Columbia University circa 1933.

Nuff said.

 

[cpwill]

Sorry but I honestly think that the amount of overreaction we're seeing is largely manufactured and astro-turfed to the hilt.

:-/ I think that, if the left decides this is all astro-turf, they are potentially in for a 2010-style event. People get pretty active pretty quick when they sense that something is messing with their kids - don't mistake your lack of concern for others'.

If school systems embark on a politicized campaign to make everything go sideways, it will not sell to the public, but furthermore, it will create more problems than it solves, just as the mandated creationism curricula did back when several states opened that door, which is now largely CLOSED again. Yes, a few school districts are still attempting to "teach the controversy" but for the most part the hardwired Creationism curriculum flopped hard, and the disaster around Ken Hamm might have been a final nail in the coffin.

I see the hysteria around CRT as a cartoon.

Eh, I think you'll find that people are generally going to remain Not in favor of their children being racially discriminated against.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

:-/ I think that, if the left decides this is all astro-turf, they are potentially in for a 2010-style event. People get pretty active pretty quick when they sense that something is messing with their kids - don't mistake your lack of concern for others'.

So now this is, according to you, lack of concern? That's pretty funny.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

:-/ I think that, if the left decides this is all astro-turf, they are potentially in for a 2010-style event. People get pretty active pretty quick when they sense that something is messing with their kids - don't mistake your lack of concern for others'.

People also get active pretty quick when they wake up and realize that they are being manipulated by phony moral panics.
Care to take a whack at how many families have been destroyed by that entire Qanon "save the children" bullshit?

Here's a hint...almost ten times as many as were torn apart by the whole 1980's McMartin Preschool fueled "Ritual Satanic Sexual Abuse" nonsense, where thousands of "therapists" MANUFACTURED implanted false memories in the minds of child patients that their parents were sexually deviant monsters.

 

[lwf]

What friggin nonsense. CRT sees the racial disparity, be it in standardized testing results or murder rates and attributes the disparity to racism. Read transcript of Kendi arguing that a reduction in the capital gains rate would be systemic racism because whites would more likely benefit than blacks. Racial disparity equals systemic racism. No exceptions, no caveats. They are changing the definition of racism. Reductions in capital gains tax rates are not systemic racism.

SOOOOOO since CRT answers why blacks commit 52% of the murders and 54% of the robberies, you going to share that answer with us?

Happy to: Systemic racism is not racial bigotry. It is the legacy of racial bigotry, the aftermath of it, even if that form of active racial bigotry no longer exists. Black Americans are less successful all-around because their culture was forged in the fires of legal and cultural racial bigotry, and before that legal slavery. Even after their ancestors were freed from bondage, they were legally prevented from success by white people for centuries. While that is no longer the case today, black communities are still poor. Black children are still raised by parents who never had the money for education, and grandparents who were in most cases legally prevented from getting an education. The values passed down to them in aggregate came from these people: People who were raised and learned to survive in an oppressed culture. Technically lifting that oppression on the legal books in modern times doesn't magically heal the culture and return it to parity with the culture of their historic oppressors overnight.

People whose mothers and fathers couldn't afford an education, and who come from a long line of poor uneducated parents who have few technical skills and a history of low paying manual labor jobs, have a more difficult time finding success and wealth in America regardless of race. These types of people are VASTLY overrepresented in the black community. In fact, it is almost ubiquitous. It isn't just a few unfortunate families in the neighborhood. In most cases it is everyone in the community. The reason for this is not because there is something inherently wrong with black people and not white people, it is because white people forcibly prevented their ancestors from becoming educated and working in skilled positions. These people passed down their values and traditions to their children, who grew up and did the same. No, this does not PREVENT an individual from rising above his or her origins, and plenty do and find success in America. But it makes it MORE DIFFICULT for them to do so compared to the average white person who comes from a culture that was never oppressed, and therefore in aggregate it means that black people on average are going to be less successful and commit more crimes due to their impoverished cultural upbringing. Obviously we are talking averages here. Not all black individuals fall into the average, and some black families are highly successful. But on average, black communities are much poorer than white communities and as would be expected are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.

In short: While it IS the culture of the black community that is to blame for the higher rates of crime and lower education, it is the fault of early white culture in America that black culture is in the state that it is in. Opponents of CRT prefer to stop at blaming black people for their own culture, and refuse to look at the larger picture and view black culture not in isolation, but as a part of a larger melting pot of American culture: one in which the black subculture was forced into poverty by the dominant white culture in the past, and the reverberations from this are still affecting the black community on EVERY LEVEL.

This is why blacks commit 52% of the murders and 54% of the robberies. Because white Americans were horribly ignorant and irresponsible in the past, forcibly imported their ancestors into a foreign country, and made a complete mess of their subsequent culture. And as part of the broad umbrella of American culture, it is ALL of our jobs to help clean up that mess.

 

[lwf]

It absolutely does. It also promotes the absurd and offensive notion that if one is white, they are naturally inclined to be a racist and White supremacist.

This is false. You have been fooled by conservative propaganda meant to terrify you in order to trick you into voting against your own interests.

 

[lwf]

The Republican party doesnt promote white nationalist ideology.

And CRT doesn't promote anti-white racism.

 

[Visbek]

CRT isnt history. Hannah Jones in response to criticism from historians regarding her 1619 project said it is not history, but instead an "origin story".

No, dude. That's just part of the name of the book she's releasing in a few months. Back in the real world, the intro to the 1619 Project states that "It aims to reframe the country’s history by placing the consequences of slavery and the contributions of black Americans at the very center of our national narrative." (Emphasis added)

And presenting CRT as theory of understanding or explaining society when it is instead an attempt to change society is false propaganda. Its a philosophy.

The advocates of CRT are very open about the fact that they want to change society. They want to make societies less racist. I wonder why you're opposed to that...?

Oh, and the opponents of the 1619 Project and CRT are also trying to change society. Care to speculate on what changes they want to make...?

 

[Tahuyaman]

This is false. You have been fooled by conservative propaganda meant to terrify you in order to trick you into voting against your own interests.

CRT itself is the offensive and destructive propaganda. Many of the more radical proponents have even said it’s propaganda.

CRT indoctrinates our youth into believing white people are inherently racist by default. It is possibly the most destructive theory ever introduced into our education system. Nothing good or positive results from spreading this malignancy.

 

[Phys251]

It absolutely does. It also promotes the absurd and offensive notion that if one is white, they are naturally inclined to be a racist and White supremacist.

Show us exactly where it does that. Cite your source, and don't make it a right-wing hack site.

 

[Visbek]

Why on earth would I want to "study" CRT? For what reason?
I have read the five tenets of CRT....

No, you haven't. You've read right-winger's partisan misrepresentation of CRT.

Its actual tenets are:
• "Race" is a social construct, with little basis in biology, and one that changes when it's convenient for the dominant group
• Racism is ordinary and considered normal, not an aberration, of most societies
• "Color blind" approaches to fixing racism can only impact the most blatant forms of discrimination
• Racism benefits the dominant group, and thus incentivizes many against fixing racism
• Because of the impact of racism, minorities often understand aspects of racism that most whites do not

You're welcome.

 

[Tahuyaman]

Show us exactly where it does that. Cite your source, and don't make it a right-wing hack site.

Jeebus. What is it with this liberal tactic of always deny? Are these people simply unwilling or unable to support their side based on the merits?

 

[Phys251]

Jeebus. What is it with this liberal tactic of always deny? Are these people simply unwilling or unable to support their side based on the merits?

This is the claim you made:

It absolutely does. It also promotes the absurd and offensive notion that if one is white, they are naturally inclined to be a racist and White supremacist.

Where is your proof of that claim?

 

[Tahuyaman]

Not one liberal can support the teachings of CRT based on its merits. All they do is deny and demand more examples of its destructiveness from those who oppose it.

 

[Tahuyaman]

It absolutely does. It also promotes the absurd and offensive notion that if one is white, they are naturally inclined to be a racist and White supremacist.

That comment is 100% factual and no left wing supporter of CRT can present anything to refute it. They just deny.

 

[Phys251]

I just saw (on Fox News) an interview

Watching a Fox interview without disgust or dismay is like drinking poison without barfing.

 

[Phys251]

If you don't know the foundations of both Critical Theory (and this it's offshoot CRT) in Marxist ideology, then I urge you to "inform" yourself about The Frankfurt School, and it's Institute for Social Research which transferred to Columbia University circa 1933.

Nuff said.

CRT is supposed to prevent the resurgence of far-right Nazism, yet you think it's Marxist?

Okay.

Oh, and while we're talking about the Institute for Social Research and Nazism, who burned whose books in the 1930s? And what was in those books?

 

[dixon01767]

Anyway, I have little interest in trying to convince you that systemic racism exists, because I frankly doubt it is possible, no matter how compelling an argument I or anyone else makes.

"Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon" Kendi

No one denies that standardized testing exist. We just deny its characterization as systemic racism.

 

[dixon01767]

Watching a Fox interview without disgust or dismay is like drinking poison without barfing.

Couldnt find anything Steele said to dispute, could you?

 

[lwf]

CRT itself is the offensive and destructive propaganda. Many of the more radical proponents have even said it’s propaganda.

CRT indoctrinates our youth into believing white people are inherently racist by default. It is possibly the most destructive theory ever introduced into our education system. Nothing good or positive results from spreading this malignancy.

This is a myth propagated by political conservatives with an agenda.

 

[Tahuyaman]

This is a myth propagated by political conservatives with an agenda.

Prove it.