Why I'm not on board with trans

[DarkWizard12]

This feels like a screed you had ready to go and just quote replied to my unrelated observation mostly... because.

Well, I could point out data that, only 1/20,000 people are biologically born with cross-gendered brain(a man born in a woman's body, or vice versa).

I could point out data that fully 10% of gen z consider themselves trans, with 20% considering themselves gay, far more than the 1/20,000 biologically proven number, thus proving it's a social contagion

I could also point out data that most of these kids do so at the urging of adults, and not on their own will.

but why do that when 1), it's a lot of work, and 2) I could just give you the argument, and you'd still lose anyway, because the philosophy it's based on is demonstrably wrong. It's both easier for me, and a harder loss for you, so I'll take it.

Even if 100% of people are trans, it's still more preferable to teach them independence and skills to lead a productive life, so they can base their identity on more important things than their genitalia or mental state.

If the suffering of one child is totally acceptable to push the pro-trans agenda, then how many children have to suffer before it becomes unacceptable to you?

 

[vegas giants]

Which could very well be the case, but that doesn't mean it's the "tip of the iceberg" anymore than bad doctors mean they're the tip of the iceberg of all medicine being bad. It's your point of focus because of your position on this issue rather than one based on a grounded rationale.

My position is pump the brakes and do the research not full steam ahead based on political agenda

 

[ElChupacabra]

My position is pump the brakes and do the research not full steam ahead based on political agenda

Except it's not "political". While one political party is supportive, it doesn't mean the issue itself is a political one. This is more a question of those who want to go full steam ahead and those that don't, and like in just about anything, there are varying opinions its pace. What's making it political is government getting involved in taking choices away from parents and their children. It's interesting to see conservatives talk out of both sides of their mouths where in one area they're all about parents rights, and aren't in this one.

 

[jnug]

Except it's not "political". While one political party is supportive, it doesn't mean the issue itself is a political one. This is more a question of those who want to go full steam ahead and those that don't, and like in just about anything, there are varying opinions its pace. What's making it political is government getting involved in taking choices away from parents and their children. It's interesting to see conservatives talk out of both sides of their mouths where in one area they're all about parents rights, and aren't in this one.

Like it or not, it has been turned into a political battleground. I have sympathy with the Trans community. However whining about the issue having been pushed onto the political battleground does not help them IMO. They are going to have to organize themselves around fighting on that battleground at least in states where they are under attack. That happens to be a good many states.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Like it or not, it has been turned into a political battleground. I have sympathy with the Trans community. However whining about the issue having been pushed onto the political battleground does not help them IMO. They are going to have to organize themselves around fighting on that battleground at least in states where they are under attack. That happens to be a good many states.

Yeah, and it seems like the choice of cheese on your sandwich could become a political battleground these days. The challenge is how to go about change, and you will always have those who want change to come fast, and others who understand the challenges that come with change and prefer the slower approach. It's also about who's leading the charge, and often it's those who want change fast, which often creates a quick backlash.

I lean more towards a slower introduction of new concepts and managing change in stages versus the chaos that often ensues when it's a lot of change all at once. I suspect this is also a point of debate among members of the trans community as well, because they're not a monolith and have varying opinions on what inclusion should look like and be.

 

[vegas giants]

Except it's not "political". While one political party is supportive, it doesn't mean the issue itself is a political one. This is more a question of those who want to go full steam ahead and those that don't, and like in just about anything, there are varying opinions its pace. What's making it political is government getting involved in taking choices away from parents and their children. It's interesting to see conservatives talk out of both sides of their mouths where in one area they're all about parents rights, and aren't in this one.

If a governments job is not to protect children then it is useless

And progressives pretend they support children and women

 

[ElChupacabra]

If a governments job is not to protect children then it is useless

So what is the boundary between the role of parents and their choices and the government defining it?

And progressives pretend they support children and women

The argument their is they do because they offer parents and their children the latitude to make the best choices on how to manage this kind of situation versus making a blanket policy. Giving people the choice to manage their mental and physical healthcare is more in line with what "freedom" advocates should support. That gender affirming care is available simply means people have that option to pursue, instead of saying that it isn't based on little more than just not agreeing with the care itself.

 

[vegas giants]

So what is the boundary between the role of parents and their choices and the government defining it?


The argument their is they do because they offer parents and their children the latitude to make the best choices on how to manage this kind of situation versus making a blanket policy. Giving people the choice to manage their mental and physical healthcare is more in line with what "freedom" advocates should support. That gender affirming care is available simply means people have that option to pursue, instead of saying that it isn't based on little more than just not agreeing with the care itself.

We are discussing the boundary. It exists for a variety of different issues

An option with no long term studies on physical effects is a very bad option

Pump the brakes and do the research

 

[ElChupacabra]

We are discussing the boundary. It exists for a variety of different issues

An option with no long term studies on physical effects is a very bad option

Pump the brakes and do the research

We already have data and research from those who have transitioned in the past. From a medical perspective, there are plenty of medications and treatments out there which did not have extensive long term impact research done before being made available. Again, the question is really about the option for people to seek out the care that may work for themselves or their children. Also, there is nothing restricting any kind of long term studies on physical effects in the current paradigm.

 

[Lisa]

We already have data and research from those who have transitioned in the past. From a medical perspective, there are plenty of medications and treatments out there which did not have extensive long term impact research done before being made available. Again, the question is really about the option for people to seek out the care that may work for themselves or their children. Also, there is nothing restricting any kind of long term studies on physical effects in the current paradigm.

Vegas has no interest in the facts of transition because his mind is made up by his beliefs.

There are 40+ years of research and none of it supports his transphobic claims.

 

[vegas giants]

We already have data and research from those who have transitioned in the past. From a medical perspective, there are plenty of medications and treatments out there which did not have extensive long term impact research done before being made available. Again, the question is really about the option for people to seek out the care that may work for themselves or their children. Also, there is nothing restricting any kind of long term studies on physical effects in the current paradigm.

Yet other countries and states disagree with that. They have said the research is inadequate


These are children


We can do better

 

[ElChupacabra]

Vegas has no interest in the facts of transition because his mind is made up by his beliefs.

There are 40+ years of research and none of it supports his transphobic claims.

I can't say whether he's transphobic or not, so I'm just addressing the topics around stopping access until there is more research, which doesn't make sense given the amount of research we already have, as you have also stated. We know from many studies that regret of transitioning is at pretty low rates across a wide variety of studies. The one I cited has one of the higher ranges (13%), but others have reported single digit rates.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

So my daughter's friend is troubled - a couple of hospitalizations for self-harm and mental health. A couple of years ago in high school, she became a "they". I knew then that she was reaching for an identity due to low self esteem. Becoming something she wasn't, and even worse, hating her own womanhood, was a manifestation of her low sense of self.

Here's the tough part. I didn't dare suggest to my daughter that maybe her friend wasn't a "they". To suggest such a thing meant I hated her friend, so I kept silent about it. I saw they few and far between, then earlier this year my daughter reported that she no longer goes by "they". This is what the left would call a detransition.

The they state allowed her another way to feel bad about her own identity - being a they didn't cause her low-self esteem, and becoming a she again didn't raise her self-esteem. Because trans is everywhere, the natural ebb and flow of her teenage doubts looked to trans as an outlet. Back in the late 80's, those of us looking for indentity expression would have long hair and wear rock band patches on jean jackets. Others would dress in black and wear Doc Martens.

Then we grew up.

Why I'm not on board with you using Alex Winter's likeness.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Yet other countries and states disagree with that. They have said the research is inadequate

Right now it's only Sweden that has reversed course, and you have to wonder how much of that is based on science or political and societal pressure. They approved this kind of care back in the early 70s, so to claim there's not enough research as a reason to stop it doesn't hold very well. Their cited concern is the increase in gender dysphoria among those born female, since the previous trend was for those born male. Perhaps a better approach is to extend the psychological evaluation rather than stopping it all together, since that has its own set of consequences.

These are children


We can do better

Sure, but given the increased chance kids with gender dysphoria are attempting suicide, relegating them to less access to care doesn't make much sense; especially if treatment is more in line with these kids trying to fit into established gender norms.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Yet they detransition meaning the initial transition was not successful

It means that during their personal journey, they hadn't yet found an answer that was right for them. That's all it means. It doesn't mean they had surgery they regretted, or had surgery period. You're not giving the proper context or the full statistics. Of the people who undergo surgery, 99.5% have reported satisfaction. Those statistics are conclusive that it is positive treatment.

 

[Lisa]

I can't say whether he's transphobic or not, so I'm just addressing the topics around stopping access until there is more research, which doesn't make sense given the amount of research we already have, as you have also stated. We know from many studies that regret of transitioning is at pretty low rates across a wide variety of studies. The one I cited has one of the higher ranges (13%), but others have reported single digit rates.

That 13% is from all different reasons. The number for people deciding that they were not trans is under 5%. That fact is inconvenient to Vegas and others like him. I called him out on this is other threads.

BOSTON, April 7, 2021—A new study published in LGBT Health found that 13.1% of currently identified transgender people have detransitioned at some point in their lives, but that 82.5% of those who have detransitioned attribute their decision to at least one external factor such as pressure from family, non-affirming school environments, and increased vulnerability to violence, including sexual assault. The study was authored by researchers at The Fenway Institute and Massachusetts General Hospital (Harvard Medical School) and is believed to be the first rigorous study of the factors that drive transgender and gender diverse people to detransition.

New Study Shows Discrimination, Stigma, and Family Pressure Drive “Detransition” Among Transgender People - Fenway Health

BOSTON, April 7, 2021—A new study published in LGBT Health found that 13.1% of currently identified transgender people have detransitioned at some point in

fenwayhealth.org

 

[ElChupacabra]

That 13% is from all different reasons. The number for people deciding that they were not trans is under 5%. That fact is inconvenient to Vegas and others like him. I called him out on this is other threads.

New Study Shows Discrimination, Stigma, and Family Pressure Drive “Detransition” Among Transgender People - Fenway Health

BOSTON, April 7, 2021—A new study published in LGBT Health found that 13.1% of currently identified transgender people have detransitioned at some point in

fenwayhealth.org

I had already mentioned to @vegas giants that the main reason people regretted transitioning was societal pressure rather than having an actual change of heart.

 

[Lisa]

I had already mentioned to @vegas giants that the main reason people regretted transitioning was societal pressure rather than having an actual change of heart.

Absolutely correct. Family estrangement and money(unable to find a job are huge factors for many trans). Many of then will re-transition at a later date.

 

[vegas giants]

I had already mentioned to @vegas giants that the main reason people regretted transitioning was societal pressure rather than having an actual change of heart.

Whatever the reason....they had to detransition

 

[vegas giants]

It means that during their personal journey, they hadn't yet found an answer that was right for them. That's all it means. It doesn't mean they had surgery they regretted, or had surgery period. You're not giving the proper context or the full statistics. Of the people who undergo surgery, 99.5% have reported satisfaction. Those statistics are conclusive that it is positive treatment.

Well that is your opinion. And that number is fake. If people go thru a process and then reverse it clearly they should not have gone thru it the first time

 

[jnug]

Yeah, and it seems like the choice of cheese on your sandwich could become a political battleground these days. The challenge is how to go about change, and you will always have those who want change to come fast, and others who understand the challenges that come with change and prefer the slower approach. It's also about who's leading the charge, and often it's those who want change fast, which often creates a quick backlash.

I lean more towards a slower introduction of new concepts and managing change in stages versus the chaos that often ensues when it's a lot of change all at once. I suspect this is also a point of debate among members of the trans community as well, because they're not a monolith and have varying opinions on what inclusion should look like and be.

Agreed.

 

[A Linoge]

So my daughter's friend is troubled - a couple of hospitalizations for self-harm and mental health. A couple of years ago in high school, she became a "they". I knew then that she was reaching for an identity due to low self esteem. Becoming something she wasn't, and even worse, hating her own womanhood, was a manifestation of her low sense of self.

Here's the tough part. I didn't dare suggest to my daughter that maybe her friend wasn't a "they". To suggest such a thing meant I hated her friend, so I kept silent about it. I saw they few and far between, then earlier this year my daughter reported that she no longer goes by "they". This is what the left would call a detransition.

The they state allowed her another way to feel bad about her own identity - being a they didn't cause her low-self esteem, and becoming a she again didn't raise her self-esteem. Because trans is everywhere, the natural ebb and flow of her teenage doubts looked to trans as an outlet. Back in the late 80's, those of us looking for indentity expression would have long hair and wear rock band patches on jean jackets. Others would dress in black and wear Doc Martens.

Then we grew up.

trans people are will known for having serious mental emotional illness

 

[Dans La Lune]

Well that is your opinion. And that number is fake. If people go thru a process and then reverse it clearly they should not have gone thru it the first time

So basically you just pick and choose what you believe to be true, regardless of the evidence, based on your existing gut-based beliefs. Sounds about right based on your opinions regarding other topics.

 

[Dans La Lune]

I had already mentioned to @vegas giants that the main reason people regretted transitioning was societal pressure rather than having an actual change of heart.

He doesn't care, and hitting him over the facts won't change anything.

 

[Lisa]

trans people are will known for having serious mental emotional illness

That is only because of the bullying, neglect and abuse they they are subject to, both at home from parents, denial of effective medical care, being victims of crime and abuse/bullying/harassment outside the home. Depression anxiety and even PTSD are common.

The term transgender refers to a person with a gender identity or expression that differs from the cultural or conventional expectations based on the sex a doctor assigns them at birth. It is an umbrella term that can describe people who identify as non-binary, genderfluid, and genderqueer. It can also include those with no gender, multiple genders, or other gender identities.

People who identify as transgender have higher ratesTrusted Source of mental health complications than those in the general population due to stigma and discrimination. In addition to a higher prevalence of mental health issues, transgender people typically experience barriers to healthcare, such as refusal of care, violence, and a lack of provider knowledge.

This suggests that these experiences, and not being transgender itself, may predict and contribute towards mental health difficulties.

How common are mental health conditions among transgender people?

How prevalent are mental health conditions among transgender populations? Read on to learn more, such as which mental health conditions are common and where trans people can find support.

www.medicalnewstoday.com