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Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.
If you are going to go this route, I'll expand on it. A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.
They are not paid an exceptional amount of money because the craft has 1. a Large labor supply 2. Requires a limited amount of training 3. Works for 2/3rds of the year. and 4. Does not work that many hours close (compared to the most lucrative fields) 5. There have been a number of restrictions on pay implemented by administrations bending to union lobbying.If you are going to go this route, I'll expand on it. A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.
Are you talking about lack of women teachers because they may have more opportunities elsewhere is worsening schools? Or are you suggesting that there were 'smarter' women teachers back 'then' because most felt forced into teaching for they could not pursue more successful and sophisticated careers and thus would be overqualified for teaching?Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.
ok, you must obviously not be a teacher. 1. teachers are ALWAYS in demand. 2. limited amount of training? i guess 4 years is not a lot... but then again, most degrees that people get are 4 year degrees. and they get paid 40k a year starting off. lol. 3. ok, 2 months off, maybe close to 3. 4) at work before 8, leave at 4. if lucky.. then grade papers till 10 or 11. repeat 5 days.They are not paid an exceptional amount of money because the craft has 1. a Large labor supply 2. Requires a limited amount of training 3. Works for 2/3rds of the year. and 4. Does not work that many hours close (compared to the most lucrative fields) 5. There have been a number of restrictions on pay implemented by administrations bending to union lobbying.
For this reason the very best teachers aren't necessarily paid the best, nor are the worst teachers fired. When strict wage policies are implemented it will be very hard for a school administrator to pay his best employees top dollar and to pay lower wages to his worst employees. If one could find a way to allow for more opportunity in teaching then it is possible there might be more incentive for teachers to perform than they already do. Primary and secondary teachers will also never garner the salaries of I-bankers and Corporate Lawyers because they do not endure nearly as much stress, work as many hours, or in the case of law, have to seek three more years of intense education.
Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.
Actually there's some truth behind this. There use to be very few careers open to women and teaching was the one big one that was available. Unfortunately teachers don't make enough money so many smart women today will choose alternative careers. Many women who today become scientists, drs., ect would have probably been teachers in the past.Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.
In science and math they are in demand everywhere. In suburban areas it is less likely that they will be able to land a job if they teach something other than those two fields. For that reason many new teachers are forced to teach in urban areas. So yes, the supply of labor that competes for jobs in suburban schools is somewhat large. That supply tends to go down for rural and inner-city schools.ok, you must obviously not be a teacher. 1. teachers are ALWAYS in demand.
In comparison to the fields of medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, law and some areas of engineering, teachers do not have to spend that much time to become "qualified." Not to mention that competition for entry Medical Schools and Law Schools is cut-throat. (And often loaded with debt) For that reason their wages tend to be lower than the aforementioned fields. Moreover, to a certain degree, the requirements for teacher certification in a subject are less rigorous than the requirements for a pure concentration in a subject. In short, a Physics or Math major will have a more challenging course-load than someone majoring in the corresponding teaching certification majors of those fields.2. limited amount of training? i guess 4 years is not a lot... but then again, most degrees that people get are 4 year degrees. and they get paid 40k a year starting off.lol.
Forty hours in the office is not that demanding. (Work outside of the office is common in many fields). If I remember correctly that is what the majority of Americans work. The people who do make a large amount of money (corporate lawyers, I-bankers, consultants) often double that at a young age. For that reason teachers are paid considerably less. Moreover, the majority of the population is lucky to get two weeks of vacation; two months would be heaven sent. Not to mention the many breaks throughout the year.3. ok, 2 months off, maybe close to 3. 4) at work before 8, leave at 4. if lucky.. then grade papers till 10 or 11. repeat 5 days.
I think you have a misguided view of what I-bankers do. Entry level I-bankers will often work one hundred hour weeks. That is roughly fourteen hours a day, for seven days a week. It is not uncommon for I-bankers to pull multiple all-nighters to get a project done. The work usually involves using financial formulas to help recommend the best way to finance corporate acquisitions. In corporate law the hours are less harsh (80 hours a week), yet they too will often pull all nighters to finish projects. More likely than not, these employees can be fired at will if they make multiple mistakes, or ,in the case of analysts, face unemployment if the market sees a downturn. In contrast, a teacher can afford to make mistakes and can even blow off entire class periods (see movie lesson) without many consequences. I don't mean to suggest that all teachers do this all the time. However, they do not face the same amount of stress as the aforementioned fields. That is not to say that the job doesn't entail stress, it is simply less stressful than the fields mentioned above. Because teachers do not face the same threat of unemployment as some other fields, it is usually less stressful. I can say from my limited academic coaching experience that teaching does require preparation and it's not an easy job; I would contend that it is not a job that merits a six-figure salary (unless the teacher is quite exceptional).ok, for the paragraph. stress.... have you ever been in a room with kids and try and teach them. there are times that it is VERY stressful. i cant imagine being a banker to be very stressful. you sit on your butt all day and count money, but what do i know, im not a banker. but in the case of law, teachers are help accountable for a lot. IEP's, student safety, trends in education.
Are you implying that we need highly qualified math professors to teach algebra and trig to high school students? Well, we don't. If you know how to do it, and how to teach it, a math teacher who can do calculus is more than enough for anything taught in public schools. Some school districts are playing the game of "highly qualified" teachers to make it appear that they care about providing a good education to the public. Fact is, they like to drive out the more qualified teachers who have been working longer in the profession so they can hire in newer, younger, lower paid teachers. My wife was given $80K to retire early!In comparison to the fields of medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, law and some areas of engineering, teachers do not have to spend that much time to become "qualified." Not to mention that competition for entry Medical Schools and Law Schools is cut-throat. (And often loaded with debt) For that reason their wages tend to be lower than the aforementioned fields. Moreover, to a certain degree, the requirements for teacher certification in a subject are less rigorous than the requirements for a pure concentration in a subject. In short, a Physics or Math major will have a more challenging course-load than someone majoring in the corresponding teaching certification majors of those fields.
In contrast, a teacher can afford to make mistakes and can even blow off entire class periods (see movie lesson) without many consequences. I don't mean to suggest that all teachers do this all the time. However, they do not face the same amount of stress as the aforementioned fields. That is not to say that the job doesn't entail stress, it is simply less stressful than the fields mentioned above. Because teachers do not face the same threat of unemployment as some other fields, it is usually less stressful. I can say from my limited academic coaching experience that teaching does require preparation and it's not an easy job; I would contend that it is not a job that merits a six-figure salary (unless the teacher is quite exceptional).
“A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.”
Goldenboy said, “Schools suck because now days because they are run in the same fashion as they were 90 years ago.”
“have you ever been in a room with kids and try and teach them. there are times that it is VERY stressful. I cant imagine being a banker to be very stressful. you sit on your butt all day and count money, but what do I know, im not a banker. but in the case of law, teachers are help accountable for a lot. IEP's, student safety, trends in education.”
I read a quote from Woodrow Wilson that says pretty much the same thing about a minimal education, for the masses. He said that we need the elite to have a good education in all the liberal arts, not to be confused with liberal politics. The elite few are, of course, the "ruling" class, those with enough education to make wise decisions. That assumes that they will do so without being self centered and making decisions that make them rich at the expense of the rest of us. We know better by now, money corrupts just as quickly as does power.CaptainCourtesy said,
Their plan? To provide MINIMAL education to the masses in order to guide them into menial jobs that will serve the interests of the socialists and the government. There i said it. Oh I cant wait to hear comments about this statement. LOL
So money the problem? No way
IMO lack of money for buildings, teacher salary, materials is NOT the problem. I read somewhere that our country spends more on education per student than all other industrialized nations. Yet we rank towards the bottom in math and science aptitude when compared to other nations. Our educational system is pathetic and a disgrace.
Thank you again John Dewey.
Your exactly on with that train of thought. Why is it the American ability to pass the buck has now transitioned to education.There are a lot of teachers out there, but not many are overly qualified. But that being said many of those are great teachers simply because they have the gift of understanding kids. Another issue is state wages and the "tenure" system. There may be a lot of teachers, but most are floating around and most leave the profession within five years due to lack of job security. It is a myth that "teachers" have secure jobs. Only tenured teachers have secure jobs and they can still be harrassed out of a job for any number of reasons. Some dickhead admin non-teacher principal comes in with an unrealistic game plan for instance....
I always fall back on the fact that if a kid wants to learn, if the kid is motivated and if the kid has family support...well, that kid could go to the shittiest school and be a success simply by the fac t that they want to be successful.
Blaming the teachers or the system is a crock of **** and does NOTHING to address the real issues. IMO almost ALL of this debate so far has been a waste of breath since it debates the politics or rhetoric of education and not the issues that people don't want to face.
Very good point....jobs have changed a lot over the years. I used to work in electronics repair, and nuclear power operations/maintenance as well as metrology (calibration of instruments, not weather).Now if the nature of the job is changing. If the culture is changing. If our way of life as a whole has transitioned from an industrial based to service based to information based, why isnt this very education system that is supposed to prepare kids for the future done its part to change and grow with it???
What are u drunk posting???If this were true we would have a better educated youth today…. Kids do not value education, parents don't value education and society as a whole does not value education. Standards were high back then, they are low today. If kids can’t make it we lower the standards so we don’t injure self-esteems because no one can fail today. It’s the dumbing down of the American student thanks to the educational elite.
Today’s 12th grade education is probably equivalent to an eight grade education of sixty years ago. Thank you John Dewey.
Well there are some policies that were adopted that have seemed to dumb things down a bit. For example.....sound it out spelling. Here on the west coast there are many many public schools encouraging kids to write words the way they sound. They aren't corrected, often to my frustration, because it is thought that "correcting" will discourage them. Instead if the child is spelling something the way it sounds they're told good job and the "belief" is that eventually the kids will just learn the words that aren't spelled how they sound. :roll: My kids are in 2nd & 3rd. I'm often told now is not the time to "harp" on spelling. I harp on it anyway. When my kids come home with papers with +'s and smiles but words are all spelled wrong we sent down and correct it. My kids tell me I'm harder than their teacher. I tell them I have high expectations for them and I believe they can do it right. They've gotten used to it and it's not a big deal. But spelling in general, particularly on the west coast, has gone down the toilet due to this "new" way of thinking the past 10+ years or so.What are u drunk posting???
Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic...
Well there are some policies that were adopted that have seemed to dumb things down a bit. For example.....sound it out spelling. Here on the west coast there are many many public schools encouraging kids to write words the way they sound. They aren't corrected, often to my frustration, because it is thought that "correcting" will discourage them. Instead if the child is spelling something the way it sounds they're told good job and the "belief" is that eventually the kids will just learn the words that aren't spelled how they sound. :roll: My kids are in 2nd & 3rd. I'm often told now is not the time to "harp" on spelling. I harp on it anyway. When my kids come home with papers with +'s and smiles but words are all spelled wrong we sent down and correct it. My kids tell me I'm harder than their teacher. I tell them I have high expectations for them and I believe they can do it right. They've gotten used to it and it's not a big deal. But spelling in general, particularly on the west coast, has gone down the toilet due to this "new" way of thinking the past 10+ years or so.
Also another big change in public education came about when it was decided it was "not good or beneficial" to have kids memorize stuff. Long ago we were big on memorizing. Memorizing and being able to repeat information back was a huge part of education. Not so much anymore. Now they look for more creative ways for kids to "soak" up the information through "enrichment" activities which sounds great but I think we should go back to getting kids to memorize more stuff. Just my 2 cents.
Oh and one more thing for the curious. Go to the library and check out old old books with reading levels. Books from the 50's and 60's. Look at the books and see what level 1,2,3, ect was back then and compare it to books printed later than 1985. Then come back and tell me things haven't changed. The older books are harder, smaller print, more words, less pictures, and more advanced vocab.
---Schools suck because now days because they are run in the same fashion as they were 90 years ago.
We have changed very much in that time, and the very structure of teaching as a whole has done little to keep up with it.
Another thing. Why should a disruptive student who doesnt want to be there in the first place be forced to disrupt that very institution on the basis of law???
Its the law, so we have to follow it. Should the law try to keep up with the changes of the society in which it was constructed to protect???
There is no reason for the standard to change if the students can successfully meet that standard. The student's standards, however, are lowering and thus the education system is catering to them.Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic...
This idea comes from your link below which I admit was interesting.How does a student in the "info age" prosper from an education system that was structured and designed on taking people from rural areas and turning them into good factory workers with meaningless mindless structure??? I'd love to hear this response...
My highschool had programs and even separate degrees for students expecting to enter college. We had dual enrollment with local community colleges where credits could be applied towards a degree. I can't speak for everyone though.Ask any 12 grade student who is going to college what he or she views that education experience to be like. Next, ask any first year college student if their first year was anything like high school. Ask them if high school helped them prepare for college.
But you choose to go there, and pay through the roof, and you are willing to get as much from them as possible. This is the exact opposite case we see in public schools, for the most part. One cannot assume the same principles will work for both with such a fundamental difference. If you tell a kid he doesn't have to be on time and he sees no need to be on time, he will not be on time: and will suffer from that from loss of teaching time. You however want to be on time thus you probably will be and will get the most of your experience.Nobody cares if you dont come to class. You dont have to ask certain things like, "can i leave the room?" Punctuality is less important, because it is the student who misses out. There is much more of an emphasis on out of class studying, and in my experience we have never had in class time to work on assignments.
True there is a problem, but I think the answer is making the students change their ways and ideals of what is important, not make a new system, yet. If we see nothing promising in the near future I think we should start over and try something new though.Bottom line, the education system is stuck in another time period. There is no need to fix the problem, they need to remove the problem and start from scratch...