why I think schools are worse now

[new coup for you]

Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.

If you are going to go this route, I'll expand on it. A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

God forbid this country gains Intelligence

Loose public schools, make schools compete, we'll have better schools... but at what cost? Oh thats right, less than we pay for public education.

Considering my public school experience in what was the "richest country in America," there is no way in hell my children will be subjected to that intellectual bait-n-switch.

 

[SFLRN]

If you are going to go this route, I'll expand on it. A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.

They are not paid an exceptional amount of money because the craft has 1. a Large labor supply 2. Requires a limited amount of training 3. Works for 2/3rds of the year. and 4. Does not work that many hours close (compared to the most lucrative fields) 5. There have been a number of restrictions on pay implemented by administrations bending to union lobbying.
For this reason the very best teachers aren't necessarily paid the best, nor are the worst teachers fired. When strict wage policies are implemented it will be very hard for a school administrator to pay his best employees top dollar and to pay lower wages to his worst employees. If one could find a way to allow for more opportunity in teaching then it is possible there might be more incentive for teachers to perform than they already do. Primary and secondary teachers will also never garner the salaries of I-bankers and Corporate Lawyers because they do not endure nearly as much stress, work as many hours, or in the case of law, have to seek three more years of intense education.

 

[Kushinator]

Schools suck because now days because they are run in the same fashion as they were 90 years ago.

We have changed very much in that time, and the very structure of teaching as a whole has done little to keep up with it.

Another thing. Why should a disruptive student who doesnt want to be there in the first place be forced to disrupt that very institution on the basis of law???

Its the law, so we have to follow it. Should the law try to keep up with the changes of the society in which it was constructed to protect???

 

[A_Wise_Fool]

Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.

Are you talking about lack of women teachers because they may have more opportunities elsewhere is worsening schools? Or are you suggesting that there were 'smarter' women teachers back 'then' because most felt forced into teaching for they could not pursue more successful and sophisticated careers and thus would be overqualified for teaching?

What time period do you reference this "then and now" scenario in also? If the relatively same standards for teachers were enforced then and now I don't see why these seemingly 'smarter' women would be any smarter than women teachers today.

I think schools are worse now from overpopulation and poor distribution of funding, and the success rate is lowered because there is not enough discipline.


I think students who drop out of highschool should be drafted into the military.. There I said it. If they are literally going to put thousands of out taxdollars to waste then I'd say they should make up for it by serving. They would also at get the leadership, respect and discipline skills from the military in place of a successful education(probably what they needed for a successful education), which I think is a much better scenario than being considered just a highschool dropout the rest of their lives.

 

[t125eagle]

They are not paid an exceptional amount of money because the craft has 1. a Large labor supply 2. Requires a limited amount of training 3. Works for 2/3rds of the year. and 4. Does not work that many hours close (compared to the most lucrative fields) 5. There have been a number of restrictions on pay implemented by administrations bending to union lobbying.
For this reason the very best teachers aren't necessarily paid the best, nor are the worst teachers fired. When strict wage policies are implemented it will be very hard for a school administrator to pay his best employees top dollar and to pay lower wages to his worst employees. If one could find a way to allow for more opportunity in teaching then it is possible there might be more incentive for teachers to perform than they already do. Primary and secondary teachers will also never garner the salaries of I-bankers and Corporate Lawyers because they do not endure nearly as much stress, work as many hours, or in the case of law, have to seek three more years of intense education.

ok, you must obviously not be a teacher. 1. teachers are ALWAYS in demand. 2. limited amount of training? i guess 4 years is not a lot... but then again, most degrees that people get are 4 year degrees. and they get paid 40k a year starting off. lol. 3. ok, 2 months off, maybe close to 3. 4) at work before 8, leave at 4. if lucky.. then grade papers till 10 or 11. repeat 5 days.
5) not all teachers have unions on their side.

ok, for the paragraph. stress.... have you ever been in a room with kids and try and teach them. there are times that it is VERY stressful. i cant imagine being a banker to be very stressful. you sit on your butt all day and count money, but what do i know, im not a banker. but in the case of law, teachers are help accountable for a lot. IEP's, student safety, trends in education.

 

[PoliticalGrrrl]

Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.

Could you elaborate upon this?

I work in education and I'm a woman. So please explain further the point you are trying to get across.

As far as the person who mentioned something about limited amount of training...? A Masters degree isn't exactly what I'd call "limited training". :neutral:

 

[talloulou]

Women who in the past that would have been forced to teach because better jobs were not open to them can now persue careers.

Actually there's some truth behind this. There use to be very few careers open to women and teaching was the one big one that was available. Unfortunately teachers don't make enough money so many smart women today will choose alternative careers. Many women who today become scientists, drs., ect would have probably been teachers in the past.

The flip side to that though would be that women teachers today have chosen to teach despite the low pay. They aren't teaching because it's one of the few opportunities available to them. They are doing it presumably because they love teaching.

I personally would rather have my child taught by a woman who loves teaching vs. a woman who'd rather be doing something else but can't because society has slammed doors.

I think teachers today have it harder than they did when mothers commonly stayed home.

 

[SFLRN]

ok, you must obviously not be a teacher. 1. teachers are ALWAYS in demand.

In science and math they are in demand everywhere. In suburban areas it is less likely that they will be able to land a job if they teach something other than those two fields. For that reason many new teachers are forced to teach in urban areas. So yes, the supply of labor that competes for jobs in suburban schools is somewhat large. That supply tends to go down for rural and inner-city schools.

2. limited amount of training? i guess 4 years is not a lot... but then again, most degrees that people get are 4 year degrees. and they get paid 40k a year starting off.lol.

In comparison to the fields of medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, law and some areas of engineering, teachers do not have to spend that much time to become "qualified." Not to mention that competition for entry Medical Schools and Law Schools is cut-throat. (And often loaded with debt) For that reason their wages tend to be lower than the aforementioned fields. Moreover, to a certain degree, the requirements for teacher certification in a subject are less rigorous than the requirements for a pure concentration in a subject. In short, a Physics or Math major will have a more challenging course-load than someone majoring in the corresponding teaching certification majors of those fields.

3. ok, 2 months off, maybe close to 3. 4) at work before 8, leave at 4. if lucky.. then grade papers till 10 or 11. repeat 5 days.

Forty hours in the office is not that demanding. (Work outside of the office is common in many fields). If I remember correctly that is what the majority of Americans work. The people who do make a large amount of money (corporate lawyers, I-bankers, consultants) often double that at a young age. For that reason teachers are paid considerably less. Moreover, the majority of the population is lucky to get two weeks of vacation; two months would be heaven sent. Not to mention the many breaks throughout the year.

ok, for the paragraph. stress.... have you ever been in a room with kids and try and teach them. there are times that it is VERY stressful. i cant imagine being a banker to be very stressful. you sit on your butt all day and count money, but what do i know, im not a banker. but in the case of law, teachers are help accountable for a lot. IEP's, student safety, trends in education.

I think you have a misguided view of what I-bankers do. Entry level I-bankers will often work one hundred hour weeks. That is roughly fourteen hours a day, for seven days a week. It is not uncommon for I-bankers to pull multiple all-nighters to get a project done. The work usually involves using financial formulas to help recommend the best way to finance corporate acquisitions. In corporate law the hours are less harsh (80 hours a week), yet they too will often pull all nighters to finish projects. More likely than not, these employees can be fired at will if they make multiple mistakes, or ,in the case of analysts, face unemployment if the market sees a downturn. In contrast, a teacher can afford to make mistakes and can even blow off entire class periods (see movie lesson) without many consequences. I don't mean to suggest that all teachers do this all the time. However, they do not face the same amount of stress as the aforementioned fields. That is not to say that the job doesn't entail stress, it is simply less stressful than the fields mentioned above. Because teachers do not face the same threat of unemployment as some other fields, it is usually less stressful. I can say from my limited academic coaching experience that teaching does require preparation and it's not an easy job; I would contend that it is not a job that merits a six-figure salary (unless the teacher is quite exceptional).

 

[new coup for you]

All I have to say that is that in college education majors are considered laughable. They're always academically inferior women. An education major is nothing compared to a biology or even sociology major. It's the lowest level of undergraduate degree. It's just bullshit.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Good post SFLRN...well balanced. I do have to add that teaching today is not what it used to be. Today teachers (at least good ones) must be part psychologist as well as educated in their field.

To All

I am always surprised at how many people totally miss why education sucks now...doesn't it seem obvious that it is because of societal changes and the fact that kids are not motivated and that this is a direct result from lack of parenting skills and such (single parents, immigrant population skewing stats, etc)

There are a lot of teachers out there, but not many are overly qualified. But that being said many of those are great teachers simply because they have the gift of understanding kids. Another issue is state wages and the "tenure" system. There may be a lot of teachers, but most are floating around and most leave the profession within five years due to lack of job security. It is a myth that "teachers" have secure jobs. Only tenured teachers have secure jobs and they can still be harrassed out of a job for any number of reasons. Some dickhead admin non-teacher principal comes in with an unrealistic game plan for instance....

I always fall back on the fact that if a kid wants to learn, if the kid is motivated and if the kid has family support...well, that kid could go to the shittiest school and be a success simply by the fac t that they want to be successful.

Blaming the teachers or the system is a crock of **** and does NOTHING to address the real issues. IMO almost ALL of this debate so far has been a waste of breath since it debates the politics or rhetoric of education and not the issues that people don't want to face.

 

[UtahBill]

In comparison to the fields of medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, law and some areas of engineering, teachers do not have to spend that much time to become "qualified." Not to mention that competition for entry Medical Schools and Law Schools is cut-throat. (And often loaded with debt) For that reason their wages tend to be lower than the aforementioned fields. Moreover, to a certain degree, the requirements for teacher certification in a subject are less rigorous than the requirements for a pure concentration in a subject. In short, a Physics or Math major will have a more challenging course-load than someone majoring in the corresponding teaching certification majors of those fields.


In contrast, a teacher can afford to make mistakes and can even blow off entire class periods (see movie lesson) without many consequences. I don't mean to suggest that all teachers do this all the time. However, they do not face the same amount of stress as the aforementioned fields. That is not to say that the job doesn't entail stress, it is simply less stressful than the fields mentioned above. Because teachers do not face the same threat of unemployment as some other fields, it is usually less stressful. I can say from my limited academic coaching experience that teaching does require preparation and it's not an easy job; I would contend that it is not a job that merits a six-figure salary (unless the teacher is quite exceptional).

Are you implying that we need highly qualified math professors to teach algebra and trig to high school students? Well, we don't. If you know how to do it, and how to teach it, a math teacher who can do calculus is more than enough for anything taught in public schools. Some school districts are playing the game of "highly qualified" teachers to make it appear that they care about providing a good education to the public. Fact is, they like to drive out the more qualified teachers who have been working longer in the profession so they can hire in newer, younger, lower paid teachers. My wife was given $80K to retire early!
The number of hours worked has been seriously understated here by some. Try teaching language arts, for example. Grading papers in that subject is a lot more time consuming than grading a simple test.
Pay in some areas is pretty good, after 20 years on the job. The real issue is starting pay. It is criminal, IMHO, to expect someone to start at $32K for a job that consists of managing the behaviour of 30 plus kids while trying to teach them at the same time. They earn the time off, trust me on that. My wife, mother-in-law, son, and a niece are all teachers. There is stress on the job, expecially when you have to teach a bunch of ill mannered brats who don't want to be there and the parents and administration won't do their part in making the system better.
Some teachers suck, some are excellent, most are in the middle, just like any other profession. And most of us non-teachers don't have what it takes to do the job.
How about we start a thread why Investment bankers should be paid less?
After all, they are mostly a bunch of greedy, selfish, money grubbers who will eventually be put in prision for fraud, right?

 

[doughgirl]

CaptainCourtesy said,

“A major reason that schools are not as good as they could be is that teachers are not paid equivalent to the importance of the work that they do. I recognize that it is the 'free market' but a society that pays a teacher $50k per year and a pro-basketball player $10 million per year, doesn't hold enough value towards teaching to have the best choose to train and go into that profession.”

Remember it’s for 9 months work, vacations etc…..I think they get paid pretty well if you compare this job with others that even take more training. The hours are good, a lot of vacation time, weekends off. You can’t honestly compare what a celebrity or sports star makes with anyone, what they make is outrageous. What do heart surgeons that save lives make? How about police that face the bad guys all day, are they paid fairly? How about miners that go miles underground that risk their lives everyday? I think 50K is pretty good considering. Does a kindergarten teacher deserve 75-100K a year?


I value teachers don’t get me wrong but the failure of our schools IMO doesn’t have anything to do with money and teacher training it has more to do with parents and the “value of education” in society. We no longer value education, we value sports. Thats why we are way down the list if you compare education in the United States with other countries around the world. There’s to much extra curricular activities and not enough concentration on the important subjects. Parents don’t back up teachers either and kids get away with far to much. And how many kids really look up to and respect their teachers? Today the prevailing idea is that if ya can’t make it in life as a professional athlete, the government might help with handouts, or mom and dad might just come through.

To be fair, there are excellent teachers working within the public school system, but their voices are uniformly silenced when it comes to reform. WE NEED REFORM. We need the Democratic party to hop out of bed with the NEA. We need vouchers to stimulate competition between school systems.

Goldenboy said, “Schools suck because now days because they are run in the same fashion as they were 90 years ago.”

If this were true we would have a better educated youth today…. Kids do not value education, parents don't value education and society as a whole does not value education. Standards were high back then, they are low today. If kids can’t make it we lower the standards so we don’t injure self-esteems because no one can fail today. It’s the dumbing down of the American student thanks to the educational elite.

Today’s 12th grade education is probably equivalent to an eight grade education of sixty years ago. Thank you John Dewey.

“have you ever been in a room with kids and try and teach them. there are times that it is VERY stressful. I cant imagine being a banker to be very stressful. you sit on your butt all day and count money, but what do I know, im not a banker. but in the case of law, teachers are help accountable for a lot. IEP's, student safety, trends in education.”

Teachers for the most part today have their hands full because they can’t discipline, and I don‘t mean physical. If someone sassed the teacher back when I went to school (and that rarely happened) they really got it. And whats more little Johnnies parents gave it to him when he got home and defended the teacher. Teaching today is more stressful than ever on teachers because kids seem run the show, the administration run the show, the unions run the show. Can teachers just teach today without jumping through hoops to please everyone?

But other jobs are just as stressful. Legal secretaries have pressures… and if they miss deadlines lives suffer. Teachers are not the only ones who deal with stress. Try staying home with the kids 24/7. If any job is stressful it’s the stay at home parent.

Boy I'm gonna go out on a limb here and mention that although a lot of factors have contributed to our failing schools….the philosophical takeover of America by secular humanists is a big one IMO. I don’t believe these changes have been caused by random events but a more crafted plan to undermine Christianity, freedom and especially patriotism. Their plan? To provide MINIMAL education to the masses in order to guide them into menial jobs that will serve the interests of the socialists and the government. There i said it. Oh I cant wait to hear comments about this statement. LOL

So money the problem? No way

IMO lack of money for buildings, teacher salary, materials is NOT the problem. I read somewhere that our country spends more on education per student than all other industrialized nations. Yet we rank towards the bottom in math and science aptitude when compared to other nations. Our educational system is pathetic and a disgrace.

Thank you again John Dewey.

 

[UtahBill]

CaptainCourtesy said,




Their plan? To provide MINIMAL education to the masses in order to guide them into menial jobs that will serve the interests of the socialists and the government. There i said it. Oh I cant wait to hear comments about this statement. LOL

So money the problem? No way

IMO lack of money for buildings, teacher salary, materials is NOT the problem. I read somewhere that our country spends more on education per student than all other industrialized nations. Yet we rank towards the bottom in math and science aptitude when compared to other nations. Our educational system is pathetic and a disgrace.

Thank you again John Dewey.

I read a quote from Woodrow Wilson that says pretty much the same thing about a minimal education, for the masses. He said that we need the elite to have a good education in all the liberal arts, not to be confused with liberal politics. The elite few are, of course, the "ruling" class, those with enough education to make wise decisions. That assumes that they will do so without being self centered and making decisions that make them rich at the expense of the rest of us. We know better by now, money corrupts just as quickly as does power.
WW said that the rest of us need something more akin to training, to make us employable. I am not discounting essential training, we all need to be employable, but a certain amount of true education would make us better informed voters. Think about it, does our government want that?
Not likely....

 

[Kushinator]

There are a lot of teachers out there, but not many are overly qualified. But that being said many of those are great teachers simply because they have the gift of understanding kids. Another issue is state wages and the "tenure" system. There may be a lot of teachers, but most are floating around and most leave the profession within five years due to lack of job security. It is a myth that "teachers" have secure jobs. Only tenured teachers have secure jobs and they can still be harrassed out of a job for any number of reasons. Some dickhead admin non-teacher principal comes in with an unrealistic game plan for instance....

I always fall back on the fact that if a kid wants to learn, if the kid is motivated and if the kid has family support...well, that kid could go to the shittiest school and be a success simply by the fac t that they want to be successful.

Blaming the teachers or the system is a crock of **** and does NOTHING to address the real issues. IMO almost ALL of this debate so far has been a waste of breath since it debates the politics or rhetoric of education and not the issues that people don't want to face.

Your exactly on with that train of thought. Why is it the American ability to pass the buck has now transitioned to education.

Maybe your child isnt a bad student, maybe your childs teacher isnt horrible.

Maybe your a horrible bad parent...

Still all in all, the world is changing. Schools are run like a ****ing factory. Strong emphasis on punctuality, repititive task, bell system (punch the clock), and mandatory attendance. Now it is true students who have better attandence do better in the classroom, but again it might have to do with the system of education catering to this idea.

Today, i went to a conference where a CEO of a local company($8 billion annual revenue) had an interesting speech.

One of the main focuses was on how their ability to accept and integrate change had kept them from bankruptcy many times. He said how hard it was for him to accept that their position as sellers had shifted to the experience of the product, not just the quality of the product. He was used to telling the customer what was best for them, and they nearly went bankrupt in the early 1980's. The culture of the country shifted. The customer changed in response to it.

One of the things i learned was that they are not a company with a bunch of rules. Their pay system became a matter of effort involved. Those who showed more effort were payed higher salaries. Those people who provided better results were given better bonuses. They stopped thinking of the workforce as a whole, and began catering towards the individual. Also, there wasnt a normal "show up" time.

Now if the nature of the job is changing. If the culture is changing. If our way of life as a whole has transitioned from an industrial based to service based to information based, why isnt this very education system that is supposed to prepare kids for the future done its part to change and grow with it???

 

[UtahBill]

Now if the nature of the job is changing. If the culture is changing. If our way of life as a whole has transitioned from an industrial based to service based to information based, why isnt this very education system that is supposed to prepare kids for the future done its part to change and grow with it???

Very good point....jobs have changed a lot over the years. I used to work in electronics repair, and nuclear power operations/maintenance as well as metrology (calibration of instruments, not weather).
The training I got back in the 60's included a lot of math, including first year calculus. I never, and I mean NEVER used more than basic algebra on the job in over 40 years. If you are not college bound to be an engineer or scientist, advanced math is a waste of time. Likewise foreign languages, how many of us had to take it and never used it? Most of us. The public schools should be offering an optional curriculum that has us graduating with useful technical skills if we choose to go that route, or an advanced curriculum for those who are college bound and will need more education. "One size fits all" for high school graduation is just plain stupid, but educators will say that the kids don't know yet what they want to be in life. If they choose wrong, or change their minds, they have to go back. Well, that is fine, and they can do it at their own expense, at charter schools or junior colleges, as needed. As it is, some kids quit school rather than be forced to take courses they are pretty sure that they will never need. We need to keep them in school until they are at least employable at a livable wage.

 

[Kushinator]

If this were true we would have a better educated youth today…. Kids do not value education, parents don't value education and society as a whole does not value education. Standards were high back then, they are low today. If kids can’t make it we lower the standards so we don’t injure self-esteems because no one can fail today. It’s the dumbing down of the American student thanks to the educational elite.

Today’s 12th grade education is probably equivalent to an eight grade education of sixty years ago. Thank you John Dewey.

What are u drunk posting???

Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic...

How does a student in the "info age" prosper from an education system that was structured and designed on taking people from rural areas and turning them into good factory workers with meaningless mindless structure??? I'd love to hear this response...

60 years ago, half of Europe and Japan were in ruins. A much higher % of world population was of third world status. So yeah we were allot better than educational wise as opposed to the rest of the world. Thats because they were in the midst of development...

Ask any 12 grade student who is going to college what he or she views that education experience to be like. Next, ask any first year college student if their first year was anything like high school. Ask them if high school helped them prepare for college.

Since i am a current college student (although not first year), i can answer that honestly. High school did absolutely nothing to prepare me for college. Nothing!!!

Nobody cares if you dont come to class. You dont have to ask certain things like, "can i leave the room?" Punctuality is less important, because it is the student who misses out. There is much more of an emphasis on out of class studying, and in my experience we have never had in class time to work on assignments.

Bottom line, the education system is stuck in another time period. There is no need to fix the problem, they need to remove the problem and start from scratch...

For those who are interested in what i am talking about,which is where my current line of thinking comes from; a man named Alvin Toffler.

Here is an interesting article that might shed some light on the subject...

Future School: Reshaping Learning from the Ground Up | Edutopia

 

[talloulou]

What are u drunk posting???

Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic...

Well there are some policies that were adopted that have seemed to dumb things down a bit. For example.....sound it out spelling. Here on the west coast there are many many public schools encouraging kids to write words the way they sound. They aren't corrected, often to my frustration, because it is thought that "correcting" will discourage them. Instead if the child is spelling something the way it sounds they're told good job and the "belief" is that eventually the kids will just learn the words that aren't spelled how they sound. :roll: My kids are in 2nd & 3rd. I'm often told now is not the time to "harp" on spelling. I harp on it anyway. When my kids come home with papers with +'s and smiles but words are all spelled wrong we sent down and correct it. My kids tell me I'm harder than their teacher. I tell them I have high expectations for them and I believe they can do it right. They've gotten used to it and it's not a big deal. But spelling in general, particularly on the west coast, has gone down the toilet due to this "new" way of thinking the past 10+ years or so.

Also another big change in public education came about when it was decided it was "not good or beneficial" to have kids memorize stuff. Long ago we were big on memorizing. Memorizing and being able to repeat information back was a huge part of education. Not so much anymore. Now they look for more creative ways for kids to "soak" up the information through "enrichment" activities which sounds great but I think we should go back to getting kids to memorize more stuff. Just my 2 cents.

Oh and one more thing for the curious. Go to the library and check out old old books with reading levels. Books from the 50's and 60's. Look at the books and see what level 1,2,3, ect was back then and compare it to books printed later than 1985. Then come back and tell me things haven't changed. The older books are harder, smaller print, more words, less pictures, and more advanced vocab.

 

[Kushinator]

Well there are some policies that were adopted that have seemed to dumb things down a bit. For example.....sound it out spelling. Here on the west coast there are many many public schools encouraging kids to write words the way they sound. They aren't corrected, often to my frustration, because it is thought that "correcting" will discourage them. Instead if the child is spelling something the way it sounds they're told good job and the "belief" is that eventually the kids will just learn the words that aren't spelled how they sound. :roll: My kids are in 2nd & 3rd. I'm often told now is not the time to "harp" on spelling. I harp on it anyway. When my kids come home with papers with +'s and smiles but words are all spelled wrong we sent down and correct it. My kids tell me I'm harder than their teacher. I tell them I have high expectations for them and I believe they can do it right. They've gotten used to it and it's not a big deal. But spelling in general, particularly on the west coast, has gone down the toilet due to this "new" way of thinking the past 10+ years or so.

Also another big change in public education came about when it was decided it was "not good or beneficial" to have kids memorize stuff. Long ago we were big on memorizing. Memorizing and being able to repeat information back was a huge part of education. Not so much anymore. Now they look for more creative ways for kids to "soak" up the information through "enrichment" activities which sounds great but I think we should go back to getting kids to memorize more stuff. Just my 2 cents.

Oh and one more thing for the curious. Go to the library and check out old old books with reading levels. Books from the 50's and 60's. Look at the books and see what level 1,2,3, ect was back then and compare it to books printed later than 1985. Then come back and tell me things haven't changed. The older books are harder, smaller print, more words, less pictures, and more advanced vocab.

All of your above post has proved my point. The current and former education system wasnt intended to educate, it was to create "good workers". Ones that would never challange the authority of their "superiors".

From your logic, should we bring back the abacus instead of using a calculator? Should computers and television be stricken from classrooms because they didnt have them before and people got on fine without them??? Jobs of my generation will in most instances not require total memorization of all information of all subjects. Its over kill. Why would you want to make a kid who has a natural interest in art take advanced math classes and make him/her memorize all the rules and theorems if he/she will never use them.

To a point, we all need to be exposed to all aspects of education just to be well rounded. But in many instances, universities do not require math classes past the 100 lvl unless your major has courses that call for higher math as a prerequisite.

The education system in this country is a joke because thats what is intended to be. Besides, if our leaders truly thought it was such a major issue, why was nearly $1 trillion dollars pumped into spreading democracy, when the education levels are being lowered at a constant rate?

Again, i dont mean to sound off on another topic, but we are spending absurd amounts of money based on installing our ideals in a foreign land when our education system goes down the crapper. I find that a little interesting. You start to see how much your average politician values you and your children's future. While the leader of the civilized world speaks at an education conference and actually said, "childrens learns".....

 

[Bodhisattva]

Utah Bill

Are you implying that we need highly qualified math professors to teach algebra and trig to high school students? Well, we don't. If you know how to do it, and how to teach it, a math teacher who can do calculus is more than enough for anything taught in public schools. Very True

Some school districts are playing the game of "highly qualified" teachers to make it appear that they care about providing a good education to the public. That is actually NCLB…a federal program

Fact is, they like to drive out the more qualified teachers who have been working longer in the profession so they can hire in newer, younger, lower paid teachers. My wife was given $80K to retire early! This is a major issue. An argument can be made for change, since I know many older teachers that are good but are very resistant to changing their ways and adusting to the changes that administrators are trying to implement in order to adjust with societal issues

The number of hours worked has been seriously understated here by some. Try teaching language arts, for example. Grading papers in that subject is a lot more time consuming than grading a simple test. Yep. It is more than just the hours of the classes. There is prep time, grading time to name just a couple. Many teachers come in on weekends and most come into school over holidays in order to catch up or to finally get ahead. Dealing with parents and committees and dept meetings takes place before or after school. That being said, I think that teachers have a pretty sweet job even considering the salary.

Pay in some areas is pretty good, after 20 years on the job. The real issue is starting pay. It is criminal, IMHO, to expect someone to start at $32K for a job that consists of managing the behaviour of 30 plus kids while trying to teach them at the same time. Yeah…if a teacher can deal with the difficult task of “dealing with kids” then the rest is really pretty easy. The difficulty IMO isn’t really the starting pay…how much pay does a 23 year old really need considering within ten years they will be making 60K or more? Gotta tall you though that I was making $51K after three years of teaching and I started at $44K…so not all teachers start out with low salaries.

The issue IMO is the “tenure” system. Districts can string along qualified teachers year after year with one year contracts since there are not any “tenured” positions available. I left teaching in California for this reason. No job security at all. They earn the time off, trust me on that. My wife, mother-in-law, son, and a niece are all teachers. There is stress on the job, expecially when you have to teach a bunch of ill mannered brats who don't want to be there and the parents and administration won't do their part in making the system better. I agree with that part. Disrespect…Cell phones…I Pods…etc etc are rampant. IF a teacher can understand how to handle kids, then they will do just fine. Teaching is just like parenting…structure and consistency.

Some teachers suck, some are excellent, most are in the middle, just like any other profession. Yep

And most of us non-teachers don't have what it takes to do the job. This is such an underappreciated FACT! The whole “those that can’t do…teach” shit… Teachers can TEACH. I know some great scientists…like my dad, and they couldn’t teach high school students to save their lives. Teachers like kids in general. They, at least I, like the psychology aspect of helping kids learn about life as they “grow up” into the adults that they will be. It isn’t all letters and numbers…teachers help, at least good ones, help build character and teach lessons about morality and respect.

How about we start a thread why Investment bankers should be paid less?
After all, they are mostly a bunch of greedy, selfish, money grubbers who will eventually be put in prision for fraud, right? LOL!

 

[Bodhisattva]

Goldenboy

Your exactly on with that train of thought. Why is it the American ability to pass the buck has now transitioned to education. Parenting… It is strange that many many parents that I know don’t parent. They have duel incomes since they think that is what they need instead of doing with a little less and spending more time with their kids. I have had this out with a bunch of people here time and time again and it amazes me, yet it also makes sense. People are selfish and do to “equal rights” and a whole bunch of other really good things, it has morphed into a muddling of what a parents role should really be.

Maybe your child isnt a bad student, maybe your childs teacher isnt horrible.

Maybe your a horrible bad parent... Parents don’t spend the time mostly since they aren’t really sure what they should do. Parents have to promote education or the kid won’t really care. Most kids end up adopting their parents values on a basic level.

Still all in all, the world is changing. Schools are run like a ****ing factory. Strong emphasis on punctuality, repititive task, bell system (punch the clock), and mandatory attendance. Now it is true students who have better attandence do better in the classroom, but again it might have to do with the system of education catering to this idea. Naw…it is that kids that are there more care more. Schools are not designed to cater to every kid…they are designed to offer options and the chance for kids that care enough the opportunity to succeed. Schools are not baby sitters. Schools should not be chasing kids to stay in school or dealing with fights and detentions and expulsions…what the hell is wrong with the parents of these kids? They have zero control. Throw is millions of illegal immigrants that have no interest in education from south of the border and make the system adjust ot dual language curriculum and then hold them accountable for it and it gets more and more confusing as to what the real priority is.

Today, i went to a conference where a CEO of a local company($8 billion annual revenue) had an interesting speech.

One of the main focuses was on how their ability to accept and integrate change had kept them from bankruptcy many times. He said how hard it was for him to accept that their position as sellers had shifted to the experience of the product, not just the quality of the product. He was used to telling the customer what was best for them, and they nearly went bankrupt in the early 1980's. The culture of the country shifted. The customer changed in response to it.

One of the things i learned was that they are not a company with a bunch of rules. Their pay system became a matter of effort involved. Those who showed more effort were payed higher salaries. Those people who provided better results were given better bonuses. They stopped thinking of the workforce as a whole, and began catering towards the individual. Also, there wasnt a normal "show up" time.

Now if the nature of the job is changing. If the culture is changing. If our way of life as a whole has transitioned from an industrial based to service based to information based, why isnt this very education system that is supposed to prepare kids for the future done its part to change and grow with it??? It has tried, but I have to agree with you that it isn’t doing it well. Lots of that is who has the most to lose.

 

[Sergeant Stinger1]

Schools suck because now days because they are run in the same fashion as they were 90 years ago.

We have changed very much in that time, and the very structure of teaching as a whole has done little to keep up with it.

Another thing. Why should a disruptive student who doesnt want to be there in the first place be forced to disrupt that very institution on the basis of law???

Its the law, so we have to follow it. Should the law try to keep up with the changes of the society in which it was constructed to protect???

---
My older friend told me of the women teacher years ago that he had in school.
The teacher was a woman and this is what she did:
1- Get to school two hours early to light the fire to get some heat in the school before the kids arived.
2- Keep the fire going all day.
3- Shovel the snow.
4- Make sandwitches at home before school started for the kids.
5- Teach every subject to the kids.
6- Make cookies at home for the kids snacks.
7- Check the kids hair for lice and doctor them. Check behine their ears to make sure they washed.
8- Buy the school supplies with her own money. Not books. Not the wood for the fire. The local men would supply the wood for free.
I know theres more she did but I can't remember. They loved her and helped her as much as they could.
---
So, I think 90 years ago was very different then now.:mrgreen:

 

[Bodhisattva]

Utah Bill

Very good point....jobs have changed a lot over the years. I used to work in electronics repair, and nuclear power operations/maintenance as well as metrology (calibration of instruments, not weather). Yep…good point. I used to be a photographer and then I taught in California and now I am involved in education in New Zealand. The American system of education is FAR superior to New Zealands in terms of providing a good education, but New Zealands is better at filtering out the unmotivated and guiding them into a more apropriate field.

A job can be more than a job, it can be an adventure!

The training I got back in the 60's included a lot of math, including first year calculus. I never, and I mean NEVER used more than basic algebra on the job in over 40 years. If you are not college bound to be an engineer or scientist, advanced math is a waste of time. Oh man, I rarely do any math beyond simple equations..but the most important thing that I DID learn from math is how to think sequentially. One of the most important things that schools SHOULD be doing is to help kids learn to think in varying ways so that they can accomplish what they want to in life and be successful…

Likewise foreign languages, how many of us had to take it and never used it? Most of us. The public schools should be offering an optional curriculum that has us graduating with useful technical skills if we choose to go that route, or an advanced curriculum for those who are college bound and will need more education. "One size fits all" for high school graduation is just plain stupid, but educators will say that the kids don't know yet what they want to be in life. Nope…it’s just stupid. Kids should diversify and have more options as they get older. Why turn a kids off at age 17 by forcing them to learn English when they are going to work construction with their brothers company right when they graduate and…

If they choose wrong, or change their minds, they have to go back. Well, that is fine, and they can do it at their own expense, at charter schools or junior colleges, as needed. As it is, some kids quit school rather than be forced to take courses they are pretty sure that they will never need. We need to keep them in school until they are at least employable at a livable wage. Going to a JC is a very practical and affordable option for any person that wants to get back into education…no biggy.

 

[A_Wise_Fool]

Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic...

There is no reason for the standard to change if the students can successfully meet that standard. The student's standards, however, are lowering and thus the education system is catering to them.

How does a student in the "info age" prosper from an education system that was structured and designed on taking people from rural areas and turning them into good factory workers with meaningless mindless structure??? I'd love to hear this response...

This idea comes from your link below which I admit was interesting.

This stance is an attempt to point at a reason behind the problem that kids today can't do what they did 50 years ago. I think the problem is right in front of us.

There is no reason to believe kids themselves are dumber today than they were 50 years ago. I think they are just not motivated, forced, and disciplined enough to keep up with those same standards students were once held to. Then people, for some unknown reason, think we have to cater to those 'unable' students who deserve to be just as successful as every other student by lowering the standards for everyone. This to me is rediculous.

How can the advancement of the world outside the education system have any effect on the student's performance? True, there are more venues for students to distract themselves from study and concentration on education such as AIM, cellphones, MTV, internet forums :3oops: , and even illegal things but a rise in one set of uncessary problems is not cause to say another system if fundamentally flawed.

There is no reason to believe the changes in life after the education system finishes its process (entering the buisiness and industrial worlds, now the "info age") are cause to believe that process is flawed. Maybe, rather admittedly, they are not as well suited as they could be to enter those other 'worlds' but that does not mean they have any reason to begin falling short of the standards that were once set for them, those same standards which are still lowering.

The problem lies elsewhere.

Ask any 12 grade student who is going to college what he or she views that education experience to be like. Next, ask any first year college student if their first year was anything like high school. Ask them if high school helped them prepare for college.

My highschool had programs and even separate degrees for students expecting to enter college. We had dual enrollment with local community colleges where credits could be applied towards a degree. I can't speak for everyone though.

Nobody cares if you dont come to class. You dont have to ask certain things like, "can i leave the room?" Punctuality is less important, because it is the student who misses out. There is much more of an emphasis on out of class studying, and in my experience we have never had in class time to work on assignments.

But you choose to go there, and pay through the roof, and you are willing to get as much from them as possible. This is the exact opposite case we see in public schools, for the most part. One cannot assume the same principles will work for both with such a fundamental difference. If you tell a kid he doesn't have to be on time and he sees no need to be on time, he will not be on time: and will suffer from that from loss of teaching time. You however want to be on time thus you probably will be and will get the most of your experience.

Bottom line, the education system is stuck in another time period. There is no need to fix the problem, they need to remove the problem and start from scratch...

True there is a problem, but I think the answer is making the students change their ways and ideals of what is important, not make a new system, yet. If we see nothing promising in the near future I think we should start over and try something new though.