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why I think schools are worse now

Bodhisattva

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Somehow I doubled posted that last one...not sure how. The cpu froze and I hit 'post' a couple of times over that time period. I Did not mean to compound that message into more than it was intended.

Bodi
 

UtahBill

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Somehow I doubled posted that last one...not sure how. The cpu froze and I hit 'post' a couple of times over that time period. I Did not mean to compound that message into more than it was intended.

Bodi
We know that you don't have to double post to make a point, no apology needed.
 

Bodhisattva

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Originally Posted by UtahBill
We know that you don't have to double post to make a point, no apology needed.
Thank you. I agree, but in the name of Sensitivity, I generally like to Clarify so that there is not a Misunderstanding that might Inhibit Communication. :2razz:
 

UtahBill

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Thank you. I agree, but in the name of Sensitivity, I generally like to Clarify so that there is not a Misunderstanding that might Inhibit Communication. :2razz:

Please, one verbose contributor to this discussion is enough...
 

Kushinator

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Here is a reason schools are worse now, as opposed to 50 years ago:

School shootings...
 

SFLRN

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Actually...it was you who introduced "Stress" into this debate and that is the only issue that I have had with your assessment. That is inaccurate, as I have proven.
I apologize. I should have emphasized that I changed my previous statement on the reasons for teacher pay to only focus on hours, difficulty of entry, and fringe benefits.

Teachers make less. I agree. I always have, since it is a fact. I think that according to how society views importance of certain jobs, they make what they do and that is fine. But society is filled with idiots that allow NBA stars to make $100 million dollar contracts...in reality, what is more important?
The reason Michael Jordan makes so much money compared to most other individuals is because he has a skill that entertains people. Moreover, he the only person who could do his job as skillfully as he did. We can admire the masterful businesswoman who creates a product that increases our society's productive capacity or a teacher who clearly communicates mathematical principles as much as we can admire an excellent basketball player. All of those individuals are important in society. To argue that teachers are supreme in their contribution to society is one-dimensional. In the most basic sense, farmers are the "most important" profession because they give people the food they need to live, but we understand that doesn't mean they are entitled to millions of millions of dollars. We know that the only way in a free society for someone to be paid any amount of money is by persuading someone else that their labor is worth that much. If it weren’t for the Investment Banker or the Corporate Lawyer, or any other non-educational profession who would pay for our excellent educational system? It is rather haughty to simply assume that teachers the profession you choose is somehow inherently more beneficial than another. However, I wouldn't be against paying an excellent teacher a large amount of money and having a system that allows for us to reward that teacher. However, that must also mean that his colleagues, which are not as talented, are paid less than they would have been under our current system. That system would likely have to be a more private one or at least one with less rigid salary structures.

Why not listen to educators regarding what might or will work when dealing with their field? LOL! This seems strange. Evidence? Most educators are ignored when this evidence is compiled.
I am referring to the ways in which society can create a framework of laws that would allow for the best educational outcomes. That system needs to be one that is flexible to the many different students in this country and one that encourages experimentation in education. Educators are not ignored when evidence is compiled. However, their view isn’t the only thing taken into account when compiling studies. It is just a factor that helps people determine the best educational policy. I would also point out that teachers unions have had the most impact upon educational policy in the past few years compared to almost any other group.





Almost all fields have a growing labor supply if you want to be logical about it...since we have a growing population.
The data shows that the supply has increased rapidly and overall labor supply has not increased rapidly (especially when you consider are low unemployment rate). However, the study showed that teacher supply per student has increased rapidly and that suggests the growth is outpacing the demand, on the whole.

Opinion. What is a requirement? It is a standard. If people are motivated to get into law school...they will. What is your evidence that people that desire to become lawyers and don't, since the requirements are to hard and thus they fall into "easier" professions like teaching? I am very curious about this one. The floor is yours...
I’m talking specifically about corporate law. The top 14 schools, which are the feeders for corporate law, only accept 25% of their applicants at the most generous schools. Moreover, the 25-75th percentile median of accepted students at the lowest ranked T14 (Georgetown) is roughly 3.50-3.82 and the LSAT range 167-171. Getting a 167 on the LSAT requires you score in the top 5% of all test-takers. To get into most college teaching programs your SAT’s or ACTs don’t even need to be near that percentile. I would also remind you that this is for admission into the lower T14s. Yale accepts 6.8% of their applicants and most of their admitted students have LSAT scores in the top 1% of test takers. (3.83-3.97 GPA range). Those students also tend to have astounding things in their file besides grades and LSAT. Outside of those schools, only students on the law review and in the top 10% of their class have much of a chance at landing jobs in corporate law. A spot on the law review or in the top 10% of your law classes isn’t easy almost anywhere. (The average pay for younger lawyers is about 60,000. Their pay is not nearly as large as individuals from the T14s.).
Who cares? If I got paid 150-200K to work like an insane person and have no life I wouldn't do it. I would rather make 80K doing what I do now.
For that reason people are paid more in corporate law and I-Banking. I’m not suggesting everyone should work that many hours; I am suggesting that because teaching doesn’t require one to work as many hours it will tend to have less pay.
I already stated, and this is beyond any logical debate, that multi-millionare CEO's have better fringe benefits than teachers. So do all lawyers once they reach a certain status or years worked... This point is moot and irrelevant.
Compared to the overall population teachers have more generous fringe benefits. For that reason their pay may be lower than people with degrees in business or engineering. My statement pertained to the general population.
What I would like to see you do is concede one thing...just one thing, as I have done multiple times. This would give your opinions more merit, IMO. Rather than the whole..." I am right and nobody agrees, especially the teachers that I am telling what they should do and why they aren't more stressed and underpaid" routine... :2razz:
I never said that teachers aren’t stressed. The most important claims I have made are related to why teachers aren’t paid exceptional amounts of money. Those factors have been mostly proven by empirical evidence. Stress aside, most other relevant factors that determine pay, explain why teachers are not paid as much as Corporate Lawyers or I-Bankers. If you believe you should be paid more then it is your job to prove it to your employer.
 

scourge99

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I live next door to two teachers who work for public schools. They each make the near maximum, if not the maximum, which is about 70k a year each. After they retire they are paid 2/3rds their salary for the rest of their life. I think teachers in Arizona make plenty of money.
 

UtahBill

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I live next door to two teachers who work for public schools. They each make the near maximum, if not the maximum, which is about 70k a year each. After they retire they are paid 2/3rds their salary for the rest of their life. I think teachers in Arizona make plenty of money.
In the later years, yes, and the retirement is good. My wife makes big retirement bucks for her 27 years there. Sort of makes up for the crappy pay in the early years. But Medical benefits in the Peoria District suck if you have children to add to the policy. Good thing we always had my insurance for the kids.
 

Bodhisattva

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SFLRN

I apologize. I should have emphasized that I changed my previous statement on the reasons for teacher pay to only focus on hours, difficulty of entry, and fringe benefits.

No problem. This clears up a lot!

The reason Michael Jordan makes so much money compared to most other individuals is because he has a skill that entertains people. Moreover, he the only person who could do his job as skillfully as he did. We can admire the masterful businesswoman who creates a product that increases our society's productive capacity or a teacher who clearly communicates mathematical principles as much as we can admire an excellent basketball player. All of those individuals are important in society. To argue that teachers are supreme in their contribution to society is one-dimensional. In the most basic sense, farmers are the "most important" profession because they give people the food they need to live, but we understand that doesn't mean they are entitled to millions of millions of dollars. We know that the only way in a free society for someone to be paid any amount of money is by persuading someone else that their labor is worth that much. If it weren’t for the Investment Banker or the Corporate Lawyer, or any other non-educational profession who would pay for our excellent educational system? It is rather haughty to simply assume that teachers the profession you choose is somehow inherently more beneficial than another. However, I wouldn't be against paying an excellent teacher a large amount of money and having a system that allows for us to reward that teacher. However, that must also mean that his colleagues, which are not as talented, are paid less than they would have been under our current system. That system would likely have to be a more private one or at least one with less rigid salary structures.

I know why Jordan makes so much. I understand why farmers and teachers don't make as much as perhaps their careers or importance should pay...

I made one point and it was crystal clear and irrefutable..."according to how society views importance of certain jobs, they (teachers) make what they do and that is fine. But society is filled with idiots "


I am not saying that Jordan doesnt deserve the money that he makes...nor Lawyers or I-Bankers for that matter. What I am saying is that society is on its head and that these people are held in high esteem or their importance is labled as higher than it should be and that they should not make what they do. I realize society will not change in order to meet "common sense" practice...and that, again, is the point.

I am referring to the ways in which society can create a framework of laws that would allow for the best educational outcomes. That system needs to be one that is flexible to the many different students in this country and one that encourages experimentation in education. Educators are not ignored when evidence is compiled. However, their view isn’t the only thing taken into account when compiling studies. It is just a factor that helps people determine the best educational policy. I would also point out that teachers unions have had the most impact upon educational policy in the past few years compared to almost any other group.

Most educators are ignored when it comes to creating an education platform and when designing curriculum standards. Can all educators be interviewed and reached in order to meet this goal...no. Can Boards entertain less politics and engage in more "common sense" and listen to educators instead? Yes. Again, I am shooting for what is realistically best for the system and kids, not for what will make money or get votes or glaze over the media's and public's attention.

However, the study showed that teacher supply per student has increased rapidly and that suggests the growth is outpacing the demand, on the whole.

The study is incorrect.
 
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