Why do we always hear one side regarding people who could have been aborted?

[SheWolf]

They don't need pro-abortionists to "humanely" promote their demise because they think their life is maybe going to be ****ty. If their life actually ends up ****ty, they can kill themselves...

Ok, so lets not give a **** about children and people living in inhumane conditions or emotionally suffering through immense pain... be it rape, war trauma, abuse, or other trauma.

It things get too ****ty and unbearable for them, they can just go kill themselves... Because suicide is all about self determination. Suicide isn't about mental illness or anything, or about getting treatment. Suicide is an individual choice that should be respected.

I got it jaydud, thanks for opening my eyes.

 

[SheWolf]

no, it is not true that people who don't kill themselves must value their own life. there are many cases where this is not true. these may include that the person has not followed through on the final action, attempts have been unsuccessful, they may be afraid of taking this step due to religious belief, they may be engaging in other forms of self harm which is evidence of not valuing themselves, and numerous other circumstances.

an opinion does not qualify as cold and simple logic.

Some people slowly kill themselves through drug abuse. They don't care if they live or die, and they just keep going back to the drugs, even as it slowly destroys their body and will inevitably kill them. They don't value being alive, their health, or how long they live. And some people actively abuse while hoping to die.

 

[SheWolf]

"Offspring as biological term" does not invite you to use whatever dictionary you can Google, though if you want to find one biased to your own needs, you may wish to avoid one that does not include "progeny," "immediate descendants," "human offspring OF ANY AGE," and the like.

What dictionary considers a fertilized egg an offspring? I really want to know

 

[Henrin]

Fertilization is just the BEGINNING of creation. The beginning of something is not the end result, obviously.

Creation occurs at fertilization and after is developing, aging and death.

 

[Henrin]

How can you seriously not see a problem with your statement? Do you think we should just mind our business and not have suicide prevention hotlines, volunteers, and treatment and counseling centers?

If people wish to end their own lives they should be free to do it. Sure people can attempt to help them, but they should not be forced into treatment, be forced to accept any help, or have their resources restricted because they wish to practice their right to end their life. As for government involvement, no, I'm against it. That is my view at least.

 

[OKgrannie]

Creation occurs at fertilization and after is developing, aging and death.

Creation is not instantaneous. If you feel that a fused egg and sperm is "A human being", then feel free to treat your own zygotes as if they were human beings. But stay out of other people's decisions.

 

[Henrin]

Creation is not instantaneous.

Who said anything about instantaneous?

If you feel that a fused egg and sperm is "A human being", then feel free to treat your own zygotes as if they were human beings. But stay out of other people's decisions.

Your own zygotes? Yes, that is pleasant language. I can't say I expected anything else from you though.

 

[SheWolf]

If people wish to end their own lives they should be free to do it. Sure people can attempt to help them, but they should not be forced into treatment, be forced to accept any help, or have their resources restricted because they wish to practice their right to end their life. As for government involvement, no, I'm against it. That is my view at least.

I can't believe pro lifers are essentially pro suicide.

And you guys don't even acknowledge the difference between suicude caused by mental health issues or terminal health issues.

How can you guys seriously be so impervious towards human suffering and pain? Don't you want people to not suffer? Does you moral system involve wanting to help others, and wanting them to not be in so much pain they will end their own life?

You guys are saying to let them kill themselves, and saying its their right.

It's like you guys don't give a **** about people, and you see nothing wrong with others killing themselves due to mental health.

And it's hard to imagine somebody in your family, or one of your kids killing themselves, while you go to the funeral and praise their choices in practicing their rights.

You lack serious empathy for people, saying the **** you say, and you consdier yourself a better person for holding these beliefs.

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

I can't believe pro lifers are essentially pro suicide.

And you guys don't even acknowledge the difference between suicude caused by mental health issues or terminal health issues.

How can you guys seriously be so impervious towards human suffering and pain? Don't you want people to not suffer? Does you moral system involve wanting to help others, and wanting them to not be in so much pain they will end their own life?

You guys are saying to let them kill themselves, and saying its their right.

It's like you guys don't give a **** about people, and you see nothing wrong with others killing themselves due to mental health.

And it's hard to imagine somebody in your family, or one of your kids killing themselves, while you go to the funeral and praise their choices in practicing their rights.

You lack serious empathy for people, saying the **** you say, and you consdier yourself a better person for holding these beliefs.

They don't care they want to add more to the suffering and cause a Malthusian Catastrophe

As with the population of any animal species what goes UP must come DOWN and the day a Malthusian Catastrophe happens pro lifers will need to do a lot of explaining to us on why ''saving'' every damn human was helpful in the end.

There whole cause is genocide on a planet with LIMITED resources

 

[marywollstonecraft]

Some people slowly kill themselves through drug abuse. They don't care if they live or die, and they just keep going back to the drugs, even as it slowly destroys their body and will inevitably kill them. They don't value being alive, their health, or how long they live. And some people actively abuse while hoping to die.

exactly. this is one of the more common forms of self harm which is evidence of a person placing a low value on their own life. often these people will say things like - "I'm a real loser, and nobody cares what happens to me," or "so what? its not like I'll ever be any good no matter what I do" it can be really hard working with these people and trying to help them see that their lives DO have value, and it is worth while for them to try a different path.

 

[marywollstonecraft]

If people wish to end their own lives they should be free to do it. Sure people can attempt to help them, but they should not be forced into treatment, be forced to accept any help, or have their resources restricted because they wish to practice their right to end their life. As for government involvement, no, I'm against it. That is my view at least.

so .... you believe that someone who is not mentally well enough to make a rational decision should be entitled to kill themselves, but someone who IS well enough to make a rational and informed decision, taking into account the future impact of the situation on their own and their families future, should not be entitled to do so - unless they have been raped, in which circumstances they may be so traumatised that the rationality of their decision may be suspect?

 

[marywollstonecraft]

I can't believe pro lifers are essentially pro suicide.

And you guys don't even acknowledge the difference between suicude caused by mental health issues or terminal health issues.

How can you guys seriously be so impervious towards human suffering and pain? Don't you want people to not suffer? Does you moral system involve wanting to help others, and wanting them to not be in so much pain they will end their own life?

You guys are saying to let them kill themselves, and saying its their right.

It's like you guys don't give a **** about people, and you see nothing wrong with others killing themselves due to mental health.

And it's hard to imagine somebody in your family, or one of your kids killing themselves, while you go to the funeral and praise their choices in practicing their rights.

You lack serious empathy for people, saying the **** you say, and you consdier yourself a better person for holding these beliefs.

quite clearly, if they cared about human suffering (including that of children born against the mother's will) they would not be anti choice.

there should be no surprise in their attitude. it is punitive - and even the attitude to suicide smacks of a blame the victim approach.

 

[JayDubya]

You seriously question why people shouldn't kill themselves? And then ask me who am I to oppose others committing suicide?

I think your sense of morals are completely twisted.

Anytime a person kills themselves it's an immense tragedy. Somebody has to be in a lot of pain do it, and you think them killing themselves is fine.

You say it's a tragedy when someone chooses for themselves their life isn't worth living, but you think it's awesome and hunky dory when someone kills someone else because they expect their life wouldn't be worth living... and you think MY morals are twisted?

Is that what one would call dark humor?

quite clearly, if they cared about human suffering (including that of children born against the mother's will) they would not be anti choice.

there should be no surprise in their attitude. it is punitive - and even the attitude to suicide smacks of a blame the victim approach.

Blame the victim? Anti-choice?

God, stop your flaming already.


Folks can kill themselves - hell, they have a right to kill themselves if they want to.

The rest of this emotional noise isn't worth responding to. The two above facts demonstrate precisely why the central thesis of this thread is so warped; "pro-abortion" stories about people being better off aborted, for their own good.

 

[marywollstonecraft]

You say it's a tragedy when someone chooses for themselves their life isn't worth living, but you think it's awesome and hunky dory when someone kills someone else because they expect their life wouldn't be worth living... and you think MY morals are twisted?

Is that what one would call dark humor?





Blame the victim? Anti-choice?

God, stop your flaming already.


Folks can kill themselves - hell, they have a right to kill themselves if they want to.

The rest of this emotional noise isn't worth responding to. The two above facts demonstrate precisely why the central thesis of this thread is so warped; "pro-abortion" stories about people being better off aborted, for their own good.

you are just reinforcing what I said above.

 

[JayDubya]

you are just reinforcing what I said above.

No, you're reinforcing that you're just flaming the thread. Seems to be a trend with you.

Saying people have a right to kill themselves if they want to does not blame the victim... that's lunacy! There isn't even a VICTIM to be had with suicide, unlike abortion.

 

[marywollstonecraft]

No, you're reinforcing that you're just flaming the thread. Seems to be a trend with you.

Saying people have a right to kill themselves if they want to does not blame the victim... that's lunacy! There isn't even a VICTIM to be had with suicide, unlike abortion.

I can see your familiarity with mental health issues is about on par with your familiarity with foetal development.

strong on opinion. light on fact.

 

[nota bene]

I can see your familiarity with mental health issues is about on par with your familiarity with foetal development.

strong on opinion. light on fact.

If you read elsewhere at DP, you'll see that there are many people who do think that if their lives are no longer worth living, they should be allowed a graceful exit through suicide. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also don't think they have mental health problems.

And there is a difference between killing oneself and killing another.

 

[Removable Mind]

If you read elsewhere at DP, you'll see that there are many people who do think that if their lives are no longer worth living, they should be allowed a graceful exit through suicide. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also don't think they have mental health problems.

And there is a difference between killing oneself and killing another.

Yes. Killing oneself defers the chance of a prison sentence...FOREVER!

 

[Henrin]

so .... you believe that someone who is not mentally well enough to make a rational decision should be entitled to kill themselves, but someone who IS well enough to make a rational and informed decision, taking into account the future impact of the situation on their own and their families future, should not be entitled to do so - unless they have been raped, in which circumstances they may be so traumatised that the rationality of their decision may be suspect?

No, that is not my position.

 

[Henrin]

I can't believe pro lifers are essentially pro suicide.

I already told you I don't consider myself pro-life. I'm also not looking for legislation at the moment. I think before we even consider it we must deal with cultural acceptance of the practice. After that we can consider laws and if it is wise to put it in the hands of the state. I have said in the past that its likely not workable to control the state on such matters and therefore unwise to take such an action. The whole reason I'm fighting against people like you is that you are putting out the wrong message.

I am not pro-suicide, but pro-choice of suicide.

And you guys don't even acknowledge the difference between suicude caused by mental health issues or terminal health issues.

I never said those factors aren't important. I just said that they should given the same freedom as everyone else.

How can you guys seriously be so impervious towards human suffering and pain? Don't you want people to not suffer? Does you moral system involve wanting to help others, and wanting them to not be in so much pain they will end their own life?

Why yes it does.

You guys are saying to let them kill themselves, and saying its their right.

It is their right to control their own destiny.

It's like you guys don't give a **** about people, and you see nothing wrong with others killing themselves due to mental health.

I'm willing to help them through their problems, but if they are unwilling I'm not going to force the issue, sorry.

And it's hard to imagine somebody in your family, or one of your kids killing themselves, while you go to the funeral and praise their choices in practicing their rights.

I suppose that is true.

You lack serious empathy for people, saying the **** you say, and you consdier yourself a better person for holding these beliefs.

I don't understand how my statement is lacking empathy. I'm just respecting their rights as people in the process of helping them. I understand it effects the effectiveness of the help, but I don't consider the alternative desirable.

And I have already told you I consider myself a better person than you. Why is that so shocking? You consider yourself a better than me, so we seem to be even there. Cry about something that you can actually admit you don't share in common with me.

 

[SheWolf]

You say it's a tragedy when someone chooses for themselves their life isn't worth living, but you think it's awesome and hunky dory when someone kills someone else because they expect their life wouldn't be worth living... and you think MY morals are twisted?

Is that what one would call dark humor?

Suicide is tragic. It's horrific and sad to see a young person kill themselves... a person in their twenties killing themselves, when their whole life was ahead of them.

How can you don't believe that that is tragic?

 

[SheWolf]

If you read elsewhere at DP, you'll see that there are many people who do think that if their lives are no longer worth living, they should be allowed a graceful exit through suicide. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also don't think they have mental health problems.

And there is a difference between killing oneself and killing another.

There are also threads where people have argued that raping women is that bad, and men getting raped by men is far worse... I would put your arguments on the same level as those.

We shouldn't support mentally ill people killing themselves. We shouldn't teach our chidlren that suicide is a graceful exit, and we should respect that decision.

I will teach children how to identify what depression is, and that people struggling with psychological issues need help and support. And that support should NEVER involve supporting their friends or family in killing themselves.

 

[SheWolf]

I already told you I don't consider myself pro-life. I'm also not looking for legislation at the moment. I think before we even consider it we must deal with cultural acceptance of the practice. After that we can consider laws and if it is wise to put it in the hands of the state. I have said in the past that its likely not workable to control the state on such matters and therefore unwise to take such an action. The whole reason I'm fighting against people like you is that you are putting out the wrong message.

I am not pro-suicide, but pro-choice of suicide.



I never said those factors aren't important. I just said that they should given the same freedom as everyone else.



Why yes it does.



It is their right to control their own destiny.



I'm willing to help them through their problems, but if they are unwilling I'm not going to force the issue, sorry.



I suppose that is true.



I don't understand how my statement is lacking empathy. I'm just respecting their rights as people in the process of helping them. I understand it effects the effectiveness of the help, but I don't consider the alternative desirable.

And I have already told you I consider myself a better person than you. Why is that so shocking? You consider yourself a better than me, so we seem to be even there. Cry about something that you can actually admit you don't share in common with me.

Suicide is not about controling your destinty. It's when outside stress, fears, and mental health issues become too unbearable to cope with. I would call it an escape, as I feel that that is the way most people feel when they struggle with the decision.

It's not about controling your life or destiny. I believe they feel they have no control of anything, and they cannot improve their life and enviroment, so they end their life.

I have seen people go through a lot of stuff... but not all of them commit suicide. I fully support treatment and I am active in helping people find treatment though some work that I do. I would never suggest that suicide is acceptable and fine. If life is too much to bear, suicide should be the furthest thing from a socially accepted solution.

 

[choiceone]

Suicide is not about controling your destinty. It's when outside stress, fears, and mental health issues become too unbearable to cope with. I would call it an escape, as I feel that that is the way most people feel when they struggle with the decision.

It's not about controling your life or destiny. I believe they feel they have no control of anything, and they cannot improve their life and enviroment, so they end their life.

I have seen people go through a lot of stuff... but not all of them commit suicide. I fully support treatment and I am active in helping people find treatment though some work that I do. I would never suggest that suicide is acceptable and fine. If life is too much to bear, suicide should be the furthest thing from a socially accepted solution.

While I am not an advocate of suicide, I am an advocate of freedom, and the fact is that, philosophically, the chief control one has over one's own life is control over when it ends.

There are in military history soldiers who have accepted missions knowing that they could not reasonably expect to survive. That is suicide.

There are in religious and political history both religious specialists and lay people who have committed suicide in protest against injustice in order to demonstrate unequivocally the sincerity of the protest, as Buddhist monks and nuns did who burned themselves alive in the streets of Saigon to protest an unjust government, and as many people did historically in tyrannical societies in order to shame the government into reform.

I do not think those people were mentally ill or depressed. If society and its accepted solutions are completely unacceptable to an individual's sense of justice, the individual should have the right to state publicly to that society that its accepted solutions are completely rejected by that individual.

 

[choiceone]

Creation occurs at fertilization and after is developing, aging and death.

After fertilization, the zygote/morula/blastocyst will die within 8-10 days unless it implants, or unless it is being grown in a petri dish, where it would die within 16-20 days even if fed with a scientific supernutrient (though we cannot "prove" that with human blastocysts, because it is illegal to grow them in petri dishes longer than 14 days). It cannot develop further without becoming implanted in a human body and living as a biologically attached part of that body. For that reason, the only thing created at fertilization is a blastocyst with an 8-10 day life span that can be artificially extended to 16-20 days. Everything else about that blastocyst, including its biologically dependent life as an embryo and fetus and its biologically independent life as a born human being, is created by the biological attachment to the woman.