Why do we always hear one side regarding people who could have been aborted?

[Henrin]

After fertilization, the zygote/morula/blastocyst will die within 8-10 days unless it implants, or unless it is being grown in a petri dish, where it would die within 16-20 days even if fed with a scientific supernutrient (though we cannot "prove" that with human blastocysts, because it is illegal to grow them in petri dishes longer than 14 days). It cannot develop further without becoming implanted in a human body and living as a biologically attached part of that body.

I know all of that, thanks.

For that reason, the only thing created at fertilization is a blastocyst with an 8-10 day life span that can be artificially extended to 16-20 days.

As I said to before, considering the natural life span of the unborn is connected to the natural process how long it will naturally live is also connected to it. If it doesn't ever attach than clearly it will die as attachment is required for it continue to live.

Everything else about that blastocyst, including its biologically dependent life as an embryo and fetus and its biologically independent life as a born human being, is created by the biological attachment to the woman.

Yes, that is natural flow of things.

 

[JayDubya]

Suicide is tragic. It's horrific and sad to see a young person kill themselves... a person in their twenties killing themselves, when their whole life was ahead of them.

How can you don't believe that that is tragic?

How the bloody hell can you don't believe that abortion is beyond tragic for the victim's sake, but utterly contemptible on the part of the remorseless killer and the one who hired them?

You want to talk about whole lives being ahead of folks?


At least with suicide you've got someone choosing for themselves.

 

[Henrin]

Suicide is not about controling your destinty. It's when outside stress, fears, and mental health issues become too unbearable to cope with. I would call it an escape, as I feel that that is the way most people feel when they struggle with the decision.

Suicide is not just about stress, fears or mental health issues. Sometimes people decide its best course of action so they don't have to die a painful death due to disease, sometimes people end their lives due to a personal decision about their lives, sometimes its political statement, etc.

It's not about controling your life or destiny. I believe they feel they have no control of anything, and they cannot improve their life and enviroment, so they end their life.

Sometimes you really can't improve your life or your environment or gain whatever you want from life.

I have seen people go through a lot of stuff... but not all of them commit suicide. I fully support treatment and I am active in helping people find treatment though some work that I do. I would never suggest that suicide is acceptable and fine. If life is too much to bear, suicide should be the furthest thing from a socially accepted solution.

Well I have to commend you on your work, but I don't agree with the last part.

 

[nota bene]

There are also threads where people have argued that raping women is that bad, and men getting raped by men is far worse... I would put your arguments on the same level as those.

We shouldn't support mentally ill people killing themselves. We shouldn't teach our chidlren that suicide is a graceful exit, and we should respect that decision.

I will teach children how to identify what depression is, and that people struggling with psychological issues need help and support. And that support should NEVER involve supporting their friends or family in killing themselves.

I have no idea where you've gotten the idea that I "support" suicide in any way. I do not.

What I have done is distinguish between those whom you call "mentally ill" and those who have made the rational decision (for them) of ending it all before the ALS or whatever makes this impossible. I'll leave it to you to read their heartfelt opinions expressed in various threads on physician-assisted suicide.

Please don't try to interpret what I've said when you are only going to distort it. When I spoke of a "graceful exit," that was my summary phrase of what those who hope to end their lives so they won't linger have said. I had a close friend who vowed that he would get the brain tumor before it got him, and this is precisely what he did. He wasn't "crazy."

I do not advocate suicide. I disagreed then and now with my friend's decision to blow that tumor right out of his brain. But I have empathy for the decision. This is all I was trying to convey.

 

[JayDubya]

It's also noteworthy that she went to pure emotion and grandstanding the instant the topic was breached. Personally and emotionally, no, of course I don't really want any of my friends or family to kill themselves. Given the opportunity, I would try to talk them out of doing so.

However, intellectually, I realize they have a right to do so. The fact that they can do so, the fact that they have a right to do so is all that matters for purposes of this thread.

Because I realize that folks have a right to kill themselves, on that basis, one can unequivocably condemn the premise of this thread - "mercy killing" those you presume will have a life not worth living...

... when those same folks may readily dispose of themselves if your crystal ball proves accurate. They don't need such "help."

 

[BretJ]

Here's hoping that nobody's such a knuckledragger as to admit that he or she would abort if the knowledge were certain that the child would be gay.

The reason you don't hear the stories you wish may be because most of those aborted are...dead. Over 50 million of them, and we won't be hearing their stories of what they would wish.

BTW, you are mischaracterizing what Sue Klebold said. She gave interviews to promote her book (published last month), and I read a couple of them. She said that she prayed during the massacre that she prayed her son would kill himself before he hurt any more people.

Columbine Shooter Dylan Klebold’s Parents Speak Out | Parenting - Yahoo! Shine

That would make a liberals head explode....
"But you can't abort because the child will be gay! That would be immoral!" The choice to abort for whatever reason is still a choice.

 

[SheWolf]

While I am not an advocate of suicide, I am an advocate of freedom, and the fact is that, philosophically, the chief control one has over one's own life is control over when it ends.

There are in military history soldiers who have accepted missions knowing that they could not reasonably expect to survive. That is suicide.

There are in religious and political history both religious specialists and lay people who have committed suicide in protest against injustice in order to demonstrate unequivocally the sincerity of the protest, as Buddhist monks and nuns did who burned themselves alive in the streets of Saigon to protest an unjust government, and as many people did historically in tyrannical societies in order to shame the government into reform.

I do not think those people were mentally ill or depressed. If society and its accepted solutions are completely unacceptable to an individual's sense of justice, the individual should have the right to state publicly to that society that its accepted solutions are completely rejected by that individual.

I am not denying what you are saying, and i constantly make a distinction between people committing suicide out of mental health issues versus other issues

 

[SheWolf]

How the bloody hell can you don't believe that abortion is beyond tragic for the victim's sake, but utterly contemptible on the part of the remorseless killer and the one who hired them?

You want to talk about whole lives being ahead of folks?


At least with suicide you've got someone choosing for themselves.

I think you should answer the question asked to you. How can you not believe suicide is tragic?

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

Abortion is also another useful tool for population control

The Pro-Lifers crowd wants all pregnancies to result in childbirth, regardless of the consequences.

In the long run all it does is increase the Global Population Explosion, enhancing the probability that a Malthusian Catastrophe will occur.

The Pro-Life crowd is definitely plotting to cause humanity's global population to increase even faster than it already is increasing, by trying to ban abortion. I don't know why they seem to want to encourage a Malthusian Catastrophe to happen to humanity, but they certainly are acting like they want most of humanity to die, and sooner rather than later.

Malthus first wrote about these events, he observed that when an animal population experienced one about 99% of the population perished.

Humans dissed the notion, basically saying, "We are too smart for that to happen to us because we're better than other animals!". Well, humans have been proved wrong as usual.

The archaeological evidence from Easter Island indicates that at one point, roughly 1250AD, it had a population of about 20,000 people. When the Europeans discovered the place a few centuries later, the population was maybe 200 a 99% population drop. Those are population estimates, and it is possible that the max was smaller and the min was higher. It is probable however, that at least an 80% population drop happened (from what I read in a history book today at high school)

The only major resource on the island was palm trees. The people cut them down to make fishing boats. The boats had to be replaced constantly since they were very brakeable. ALL the trees eventually were cut down, and not long afterward is when the population crashed they couldn't sustain feeding their max population.

If humans only experienced an 80% drop instead of a 99% drop, during the genuine Malthusian Catastrophe they experienced on Easter Island, we can chalk up the difference being smarter than the average animal. But not smart enough to avoid that disaster in the first place apparently according to all the current global population evidence.

Earth is simply just a bigger island than Easter Island. Earth is exactly as much a finite thing as Easter Island, and can only support a limited, not unlimited, number of people

I therefore submit that Pro Lifers are actually "Pro-Genocide" even if they don't know it and want to deny it!

 

[Removable Mind]

Abortion is also another useful tool for population control

The Pro-Lifers crowd wants all pregnancies to result in childbirth, regardless of the consequences.

In the long run all it does is increase the Global Population Explosion, enhancing the probability that a Malthusian Catastrophe will occur.

The Pro-Life crowd is definitely plotting to cause humanity's global population to increase even faster than it already is increasing, by trying to ban abortion. I don't know why they seem to want to encourage a Malthusian Catastrophe to happen to humanity, but they certainly are acting like they want most of humanity to die, and sooner rather than later.

Malthus first wrote about these events, he observed that when an animal population experienced one about 99% of the population perished.

Humans dissed the notion, basically saying, "We are too smart for that to happen to us because we're better than other animals!". Well, humans have been proved wrong as usual.

The archaeological evidence from Easter Island indicates that at one point, roughly 1250AD, it had a population of about 20,000 people. When the Europeans discovered the place a few centuries later, the population was maybe 200 a 99% population drop. Those are population estimates, and it is possible that the max was smaller and the min was higher. It is probable however, that at least an 80% population drop happened (from what I read in a history book today at high school)

The only major resource on the island was palm trees. The people cut them down to make fishing boats. The boats had to be replaced constantly since they were very brakeable. ALL the trees eventually were cut down, and not long afterward is when the population crashed they couldn't sustain feeding their max population.

If humans only experienced an 80% drop instead of a 99% drop, during the genuine Malthusian Catastrophe they experienced on Easter Island, we can chalk up the difference being smarter than the average animal. But not smart enough to avoid that disaster in the first place apparently according to all the current global population evidence.

Earth is simply just a bigger island than Easter Island. Earth is exactly as much a finite thing as Easter Island, and can only support a limited, not unlimited, number of people

I therefore submit that Pro Lifers are actually "Pro-Genocide" even if they don't know it and want to deny it!

I don't know about the "population control angle"...but one thing is certain...and UNDENIABLE...and that is: All of the abortions that have and is occurring in our country and around the world...HAS NOT CAUSED DECREASED these populations. ALL GLOBAL POPULATIONS are rapidly GROWING DESPITE abortions rates.

But Pro-Lifers don't want to talk about that.

And if there were an added 1.2 million births, which for all practical purposes, due to the fact that not one single medical abortion occurred in the U.S. - Pro-lifers would be screaming about taxation perpetrated on them UNJUSTLY because the government needs much more tax money to deal with all of the added births that might otherwise have been aborted. Crack babies and all... Oh, dear God...Victims of government programs taking over their wallets and purses! I can hear the crying now.

In other words, the Pro-lifers want to somehow FORCE women how to think and act and be responsible for reproduction "as they want them to"...regardless of the consequences.

 

[JayDubya]

Oh god, first random emotional interjections about suicide, and now even more nonsense of the Malthusian variety.

Newsflash, his math was bad, his theories were bad, reality has left them in the dustbin of history where they belong. I'm not willing to sacrifice innocent lives on the altar of your crusade, either - Malthusians always seem to want someone else to die for them.

I All of the abortions that have and is occurring in our country and around the world...HAS NOT CAUSED DECREASED these populations. ALL GLOBAL POPULATIONS are rapidly GROWING DESPITE abortions rates.

But Pro-Lifers don't want to talk about that.

I don't particular care to talk about it, because I have never seen why you think that to be important. Not at all.

For the individual human beings grievously wronged, killed in cold blood, it's not even a cold comfort that the species at large is still prolific. Individuals are still being wronged.

Furthermore, one could extend the logic of your argument to promote, well, anything that ended up killing humans in aggression - just as long as the country still had a net population gain, it's as though those deaths didn't happen and don't matter. As long as our murder rate hasn't reached parity with our growth, then why bother prosecuting anyone for the act, right?

 

[Glowpun]

An added bonus to reproductive freedom is it helps the environment, too. Never mind the Hiters and George W Bushes that it will spare us. All those people who have been aborted would be using up fossil fuels and exhaling toxic CO2 into our atmosphere, would contribute to the demand for food and force us to make more environment-destroying factory farms.

Abortion as a form of population control. Logical.

 

[Removable Mind]

I don't particular care to talk about it, because I have never seen why you think that to be important. Not at all.

You don't care to talk about anything that doesn't come from you, your OPINIONS, your bullying opinions as though the world owes you its ears and unconditional acceptance as to what your opinions are.

You want to PORTRAY your OPINIONS as FACTS. Are you sure you aren't Rush Limbaugh in disguise?

Jay...obviously you have the right to say or post whatever the **** you want. But please don't expect your posts to be without rebuttle or someone elses opinions or presentation of facts being laid on the table. The world doesn't revolve around your beliefs. When you post - in your mind - ONLY YOUR OPINION should be heard and accepted on this matter...and any other topic.

You lay out post after post after post filled with opinions, but rarely if ever to the provide FACTS to back up what you say.

The hardcore reality is YES, post what you want to say as you do have that right within the boundary of this sites rules...but, Jay, you don't have the right to be heard or believed.

If you don't want to talk about the FACTS around my comment that all of the previous and current abortions have not effected the growth of any given population around the globe and in particular...America...then just don't inject trollish or inflammatory posts to divert or distract the ongoing dialog in this thread.

And if you can't grasp or understand the values or why I think something is important enough to post about...then please don't hesitate to ask for clarity instead of going off with condemning my post content.

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH: Despite all of the abortions ever done or currently being done...it has not effected the population growth in America or any other known nation on this planet. In fact, our populations around the globe continue to grow at rapid pace.

AGAIN JAY: If you disagree, please show us all any evidence you might dig up that would be to the Contrary to my claim...Please!

 

[JayDubya]

My. What a hateful little rant.

I do not dispute population demographic facts. I challenged you to explain how they have relevance. You failed to do so.

So I will explain again.

If someone fatally shot you right now, there would be several babies born worldwide before you bled out and died... So... By your own philosophy, aren't you saying that your death would not matter... that you were not wronged?

I would take issue with that, and I'm not particularly fond of you... with abortion, however, we're dealing with a victim that is, as an ironclad rule, a perfect innocent. When a human being is killed in aggression, that is wrong, whatever the demographics might be.

Life is not so cheap as you claim, it would seem, not even to you.

 

[SheWolf]

Suicide is not just about stress, fears or mental health issues. Sometimes people decide its best course of action so they don't have to die a painful death due to disease, sometimes people end their lives due to a personal decision about their lives, sometimes its political statement, etc.



Sometimes you really can't improve your life or your environment or gain whatever you want from life.



Well I have to commend you on your work, but I don't agree with the last part.

I have been making a distinction so there is no need to lecture me on the differences of suicide. I constantly refer to people with mental health issues, because that is we're I feel your attitude is wrong.

 

[Removable Mind]

My. What a hateful little rant.

I do not dispute population demographic facts. I challenged you to explain how they have relevance. You failed to do so.

So I will explain again.

If someone fatally shot you right now, there would be several babies born worldwide before you bled out and died... So... By your own philosophy, aren't you saying that your death would not matter... that you were not wronged?

I would take issue with that, and I'm not particularly fond of you... with abortion, however, we're dealing with a victim that is, as an ironclad rule, a perfect innocent. When a human being is killed in aggression, that is wrong, whatever the demographics might be.

Life is not so cheap as you claim, it would seem, not even to you.

Jay...you wrote the book on hateful posts...so please don't sling the mud my way.

 

[SheWolf]

It's also noteworthy that she went to pure emotion and grandstanding the instant the topic was breached. Personally and emotionally, no, of course I don't really want any of my friends or family to kill themselves. Given the opportunity, I would try to talk them out of doing so.

However, intellectually, I realize they have a right to do so. The fact that they can do so, the fact that they have a right to do so is all that matters for purposes of this thread.

Because I realize that folks have a right to kill themselves, on that basis, one can unequivocably condemn the premise of this thread - "mercy killing" those you presume will have a life not worth living...

... when those same folks may readily dispose of themselves if your crystal ball proves accurate. They don't need such "help."

Call it grandstanding if you like, but you should own up to your comments and take responsibility for how the sound to others. Suicide is an emotional issue, you won't get any ****ing apologies from me reminding you and others of that fact.

What I don't understand us why you reason it's a right? Are you arguing its a right in the sense that they can do it, if committed to the decision and nobody can stop them? I would argue that inability to control another persons actions or decisions does not imply its a right. If that's the logic you use, we could argue that inability to prevent somebody else following through with any threat equates to a right. People make threats all the time, especially in domestic violence situations and then follow through with those threats. That threat can be murder as well as suicide.

Would you classify that as a right because the abuse was determined to stock and kill, and was successful after multiple threats? That happens more than it should.

 

[SheWolf]

Abortion is also another useful tool for population control

The Pro-Lifers crowd wants all pregnancies to result in childbirth, regardless of the consequences.

In the long run all it does is increase the Global Population Explosion, enhancing the probability that a Malthusian Catastrophe will occur.

The Pro-Life crowd is definitely plotting to cause humanity's global population to increase even faster than it already is increasing, by trying to ban abortion. I don't know why they seem to want to encourage a Malthusian Catastrophe to happen to humanity, but they certainly are acting like they want most of humanity to die, and sooner rather than later.

Malthus first wrote about these events, he observed that when an animal population experienced one about 99% of the population perished.

Humans dissed the notion, basically saying, "We are too smart for that to happen to us because we're better than other animals!". Well, humans have been proved wrong as usual.

The archaeological evidence from Easter Island indicates that at one point, roughly 1250AD, it had a population of about 20,000 people. When the Europeans discovered the place a few centuries later, the population was maybe 200 a 99% population drop. Those are population estimates, and it is possible that the max was smaller and the min was higher. It is probable however, that at least an 80% population drop happened (from what I read in a history book today at high school)

The only major resource on the island was palm trees. The people cut them down to make fishing boats. The boats had to be replaced constantly since they were very brakeable. ALL the trees eventually were cut down, and not long afterward is when the population crashed they couldn't sustain feeding their max population.

If humans only experienced an 80% drop instead of a 99% drop, during the genuine Malthusian Catastrophe they experienced on Easter Island, we can chalk up the difference being smarter than the average animal. But not smart enough to avoid that disaster in the first place apparently according to all the current global population evidence.

Earth is simply just a bigger island than Easter Island. Earth is exactly as much a finite thing as Easter Island, and can only support a limited, not unlimited, number of people

I therefore submit that Pro Lifers are actually "Pro-Genocide" even if they don't know it and want to deny it!

I think we are mostly overpopulated now. One resource we are soon to run out of us fossil fuels, and many parts of the works and even parts of Anerica experience water shortages and weakening water supplies. Las Vegas is already facing problems with Mead Lake shrinking. Food prices are increasing, meat is expected to rise dramatically. Due to the draught and less feed for livestock, livestock was over slaughter.

There isn't enough livestock to support the population without increasing costs.

We could be on the path to ****ing ourselves in the long run. I believe it's Likely we will cause much if own destruction, and slowed population growth would help bring prices down and make resources last longer.

 

[JayDubya]

.

Jay...you wrote the book on hateful posts..

Right... so you can't defend your use of irrelevant statistics in an obviously off-topic way.


Thanks.

 

[SheWolf]

My. What a hateful little rant.

I do not dispute population demographic facts. I challenged you to explain how they have relevance. You failed to do so.

So I will explain again.

If someone fatally shot you right now, there would be several babies born worldwide before you bled out and died... So... By your own philosophy, aren't you saying that your death would not matter... that you were not wronged?

I would take issue with that, and I'm not particularly fond of you... with abortion, however, we're dealing with a victim that is, as an ironclad rule, a perfect innocent. When a human being is killed in aggression, that is wrong, whatever the demographics might be.

Life is not so cheap as you claim, it would seem, not even to you.

Death rates and birth rates are a factor in determining population growth.

But lifers do make the amount of abortions a central part if the debate. The number 50 million has been brought up a dozen times, and you believe the number adds to the monstrosity of abirtion.

50 million is worse than 6 million, so abortion is worse than the holocaust, etc.

 

[VanceMack]

I bet there are a few million a year that would speak out about how positive their abortion experience was except...oh yeah...they are dead...

 

[nota bene]

There is no comparison between the Holocaust and the 50+ million unborn babies/marauding parasital fetuses except for numbers.

But is abortion-on-demand itself a holocaust? Some say yes.

 

[Removable Mind]

.

Right... so you can't defend your use of irrelevant statistics in an obviously off-topic way.


Thanks.

I can always defend my posts...as necessary. I just wish that you'd do the same...which is a rarity for you.

 

[SheWolf]

I bet there are a few million a year that would speak out about how positive their abortion experience was except...oh yeah...they are dead...

I talk to them on my ouija board and through the psychic hotline. They are doing fine.

 

[SheWolf]

There is no comparison between the Holocaust and the 50+ million unborn babies/marauding parasital fetuses except for numbers.

But is abortion-on-demand itself a holocaust? Some say yes.

That's what I said. You guys always compare the numbers, and you shouldn't even do that. There were not 50 million Jewish people in Europe to haul off to concentration camps. Jewish people are a minority everywhere, even in there own country of Israel. So what are those lifers suggesting? Saying that complete and total genocide of the Jewish people wouldn't compare or be as horrible as the modern abortion genocide, because that's what those prolifers sound like they are saying to me.

And that is utterly ridiculous, offensive, and beyond stupid.

People in the hocaust suffered immensely, but I suppose all that torture, dehumanization, starvation, genocide, etc wasn't so bad or the Holocaust survivors would have all just killed themselves, as others have argued in this thread. What more proof do some lifers need? Torture, smorture.

And for me and others in this thread the questions desevre a serious conversation, not the numbers being touted around. When does human suffering matter, when does quality of life have any bearing to the other side in this debate? Ignoring the question, acting as if "quality of life" and suffering are bad words, and using the suicide argument does not suffice, nor does ignoring that the Holocaust involved a lot more than just murder, because just that murdering part doesn't make the Holocast wrong. It involved a lot more, which made it evil and disturbing.

It's a valid aspect in this debate