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Why do Liberals typically attack and pervert Christianity?

ah, so "under God" does not mean "under God".

great logic there. ;)

Great reading comprehension. If you do not believe in God, than it means nothing. Taking offense at something that means nothing to you is pointless. That's not difficult to comprehend.
 
My idea of "God" doesn't work in "under God", but I say it anyway. Or did say it the last time I can ever remember saying the pledge. I also say "with liberty and justice for all", but I know that isn't exactly true either. The pledge is necessary for children to understand the concept of citizenship and the ideals under which the nation was established. "Under God" is a symbolic oath as in "so help me God". I'm not a Christian, but I don't see the use of "under God" as an affirmation of national unity as being representative of a particular religion. I don't have a problem with it.
 
Great reading comprehension. If you do not believe in God, than it means nothing. Taking offense at something that means nothing to you is pointless. That's not difficult to comprehend.

the Pledge of Allegiance including the words "under God", means something.

and if you say it, one should mean it. that's why I often avoid this phrase.
 
My point is it's not the Symbol you are pledging allegiance too.
yes, it is... it is right there in the words. it is the Flag and it is the political entity, the republic, the nation,,, NOT the ideals, not the premises of equality and governance by the governed, not equality, not Liberty.

The flag meant the same thing in both cases
not to a lot of folks, it did not. not to me. and that is the point - symbols do not mean anything but what the viewer takes them to mean. The Confederacy abandoned the stars and stripes when, to them, it stopped meaning slavery. It had stopped meaning slavery to the people of the north long before. Germany, as an entity, did not change when the symbol changed. Germany as an ethic damn sure did. there is no absolute relationship between the symbol and the symbolized.

any attempt to induce a behavior that is not clear in its meaning, is not wholly voluntary on the part of the receiver and is not related to a specific ethic is indoctrination. obliging children to pledge allegiance, a pledge they can neither understand nor are capable of fulfilling is indoctrination.

this nation was founded in DISSENT, not ALLEGIANCE. we are supposed to NOT be subjects, but Sovereigns... that is the revolution that Rousseau brought. We, the People and we, individually, are sovereign.


If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it....This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

saying "under God (or not)" sounds stupid in a pledge.
then just stop saying "under God". it was a specifically christian (and largely catholic) variation inserted specifically as a refutation of atheism. it IS prejudicial. not that i care, really, as long as it is an adult saying it.
What do you gain by tilting at windmills?

i am glad you asked.
 
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Great reading comprehension. If you do not believe in God, than it means nothing. Taking offense at something that means nothing to you is pointless. That's not difficult to comprehend.

"under God" means "under God"; not "nothing"

Words have meaning....to everyone, not just the religious.

Just imagine the uproar that would ensue if the words were changed to "under Gods"

PS - I gotta give you props for getting through Don Qioxote. I couldn't and I generally like dense literature
 
What do you gain by tilting at windmills?

pertinent to our discussion (if not to the question, per se) is the time the renaissance, as the role of religion as the dominating force in culture was diminishing and the role secularism increasing.

the book seems strange to the reader after a time. obviously, it was written as entertainment, a parody of romantic chivalric notions... kinda morphs into a 'historical' novel very popular at the time... suddenly, Cervantes tells us he is translating a story by another guy (never heard of him)... then the other guy steps into the story... it was subtle in its creeping themes. it may even seem like this guy doesn't quite know what he is doing... who the hell is talking? Cervantes or Quixote. then cervantes steps into the story AS the other guy. there is a growing distrust of Quixote (obviously, the man is mad) and a growing distrust of Cervantes. ah the hell with it... just read and assume nothing is what it seems. he has got us.

all the time we are laughing at Quixote, we admire his intents - his pursuit of justice, of right. the tension between reason and madness challenges our perception of what is really crazy. when we meet people like this challenging our perceptions in the pursuit of 'right', we are likely to dismiss them, but rarely without a slight tug at our conscience - "what if he is right". the uncertainty in the manner of story telling reinforces this uncertainty in the tension between perception and inception.

you see him 'tilting at windmills', an error on his part and a bootless activity, futile and wasteful. but... they weren't windmills... we are forced to ask whether we are making the error. the folks around him start out laughing but are usually drawn in to his vision just as we, as readers, are.

he is pursuing justice and 'right'. he is attacking 'symbols', conventions, accepted truths . . .dragons and giants and evil knights errant. we are the fools if we fail to see this.

what i gain i gain from questioning the accepted verities... pulling back the curtain to see who is really operating the giant head spewing smoke and light. often, there is nothing. often there is just what is proposed. often, more often than most would suspect, is a stinking pile.

geo.
 
the Pledge of Allegiance including the words "under God", means something.

and if you say it, one should mean it. that's why I often avoid this phrase.

Then don't say it. That's the point "dude".
 
"under God" means "under God"; not "nothing"

Words have meaning....to everyone, not just the religious.

Just imagine the uproar that would ensue if the words were changed to "under Gods"

PS - I gotta give you props for getting through Don Qioxote. I couldn't and I generally like dense literature

Words have the meaning we give them.

I made it through Les Miserables too, Don Quixote was easy compared to that.
 
Words have the meaning we give them.

I made it through Les Miserables too, Don Quixote was easy compared to that.

Braggart!!!

And we have given meaning to the words "under God". It's not "nothing"
 
yes, it is... it is right there in the words. it is the Flag and it is the political entity, the republic, the nation,,, NOT the ideals, not the premises of equality and governance by the governed, not equality, not Liberty.

Then you are far more superficial in your understandings than you give yourself credit for.

not to a lot of folks, it did not. not to me. and that is the point - symbols do not mean anything but what the viewer takes them to mean. The Confederacy abandoned the stars and stripes when, to them, it stopped meaning slavery. It had stopped meaning slavery to the people of the north long before. Germany, as an entity, did not change when the symbol changed. Germany as an ethic damn sure did. there is no absolute relationship between the symbol and the symbolized.

It can just as easily be argued that all means nothing. Giving credit and credence to such dissenting view not only diminishes the symbol, but diminishes what is symbolized. Just as in the case of the swastika.

any attempt to induce a behavior that is not clear in its meaning, is not wholly voluntary on the part of the receiver and is not related to a specific ethic is indoctrination. obliging children to pledge allegiance, a pledge they can neither understand nor are capable of fulfilling is indoctrination.

To this I agree...with limitations.

this nation was founded in DISSENT, not ALLEGIANCE. we are supposed to NOT be subjects, but Sovereigns... that is the revolution that Rousseau brought. We, the People and we, individually, are sovereign.

Sovereigns is taking it to the extreme, and this is where you loose the plot.


If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it....This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

And here we have freedom of speech, which we are both exercising, undisturbed.

then just stop saying "under God". it was a specifically christian (and largely catholic) variation inserted specifically as a refutation of atheism. it IS prejudicial. not that i care, really, as long as it is an adult saying it.

Indeed. So?

i am glad you asked.

As am I.
 
Some children have been punished for not saying it. The link has already been provided.

Punished? Where they taken "out back" and beaten?
 
If the "under god" part isn't really that important, then why leave it in? Shouldn't the pledge contain things that all Americans believe in? It's supposed to be a pledge for every American, not just some.
 
If the "under god" part isn't really that important, then why leave it in? Shouldn't the pledge contain things that all Americans believe in? It's supposed to be a pledge for every American, not just some.

I think based on statistics alone, most do. It is a minority that wishes it removed. My position is that since it is largely irrelevant, just don't say it and go on your way.
 
Is that the only form of discipline you can think of? I doubt it. I think you can do better than that.

I think you can live with a little discipline. Show me the punishments given to those that refuse to say either the pledge of allegiance or "under god".

FWIW...my ipad tried to auto correct my misspelling of allegiance to belligerence. I thought that was funny.
 
I think based on statistics alone, most do. It is a minority that wishes it removed. My position is that since it is largely irrelevant, just don't say it and go on your way.

I didn't say most. I said all. Shouldn't the pledge only include things that are true for ALL Americans?

Actually, by that logic, we should take out "liberty and justice for all", too. Since that's demonstrably untrue... But at least we're trying to make that true for everyone, so maybe it refers to the fact that it is an ideal that we're all striving for. To try and make "under god" true for everyone is unconstitutional.
 
Show me the punishments given to those that refuse to say either the pledge of allegiance or "under god". .

The info you ask for has already been posted, and I reminded you of that in an earlier post. If you're going to ignore the info twice, why should I respond to your request?
 
Words have the meaning we give them.

I made it through Les Miserables too, Don Quixote was easy compared to that.

well, I can only speak for myself, but to me, the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States of America, MEANS something.

and I don't say things if I don't mean it...unless there is a gun to my head.

that's why I do not say "Under God". I would be a liar and a hypocrite if I did.
 
The info you ask for has already been posted, and I reminded you of that in an earlier post. If you're going to ignore the info twice, why should I respond to your request?

you...have...to...type...like...this...for...him...to....get...it.

;)
 
The info you ask for has already been posted, and I reminded you of that in an earlier post. If you're going to ignore the info twice, why should I respond to your request?

Because I'm not going to go back through 98 pages to find it? How hard is it to paste a link?

If you don't want me to know what you are talking about, fine.
 
well, I can only speak for myself, but to me, the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States of America, MEANS something.

and I don't say things if I don't mean it...unless there is a gun to my head.

that's why I do not say "Under God". I would be a liar and a hypocrite if I did.

or didn't.
 
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