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Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

Thinker

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
I am honestly having a difficult time figuring out whether you are ignorant, stupid or just plain ill-willed, alleged thinker. My recovery was nothing like any non-religious development of personal mental strength you had mentioned, and "Step One" of the process is that the ego must be smashed!

When I pointed out that other people have had dramatic recoveries from
alcoholism (and other problems) without any supernatural involvement, you
dismissed it by replying: "Yes, I am aware, but that kind of thing is nothing
like my own recovery."

So you believe that your recovery is better or more significant than all those
other people! I think calling you "ego-centric" is a mild reproach for that.


Once again, I am honestly having a difficult time figuring out whether you are ignorant, stupid or just plain ill-willed, alleged thinker. The *single* reason I say I know is because I do!

... and thus you expose your self-importance and a mind that's closed to
anything outside itself. It fits in with your displayed ego-centric nature.

And now even yet again, alleged thinker, I am honestly having a difficult time figuring out whether you are ignorant, stupid or just plain ill-willed. The subject at hand at the moment is a simple request for any evidence you might have behind your allegation of "rubbish" -- I showed *my* evidence of *your* rubbish a little way back -- and now you seem to want to talk about me instead!
You were the one who claimed evidence and, regardless of what you
continue to echo, you have provided none. All you have said is, in effect,
"Anything I believe in is true and is therefore evidence". What nonsense.

Not interested.
Indeed you are not, you are not interested in anything but your own
fantasies.
 

leejosepho

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Thinker said:
When I pointed out that other people have had dramatic recoveries from alcoholism (and other problems) without any supernatural involvement, you dismissed it by replying: "Yes, I am aware, but that kind of thing is nothing like my own recovery."

So you believe that your recovery is better or more significant than all those other people! ...

No, not at all -- just different.

If I might digress for just a moment ...

Nearly everyone, I humbly assume, has heard of "heart disease" ...

... yet there is actually no such defined illness or condition, as such. Rather, a poorly-functioning heart might actually be "dis-eased" in any one or more of several or even many ways, with each of those specific problems commonly requiring a specific or even unique treatment.

The same is true concerning "alcoholism", a general or overall term used in reference to more than just one particular or specific kind or type of problem or dilemma in one way or another involving alcohol.

Alongside, yet separate from what you had mentioned, here was my own particular deal:

"If your man accepts your offer, it should be pointed out that physical treatment is but a small part of the picture. Though you are providing him with the best possible medical attention, he should understand that he must undergo a change of heart. To get over drinking will require a transformation of thought and attitude ..." ("Alcoholics Anonymous", page 144, emphasis added).

I will respectfully spare you a lot of details unless you actually want to hear them, but that particular "change of heart" and specific "transformation of thought and attitude" just mentioned is directly connected to YHWH's very own reconciliation of needy, desperate and willing human beings.
 
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Thinker

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
I will respectfully spare you a lot of details unless you actually want to hear them, but that particular "change of heart" and specific "transformation of thought and attitude" just mentioned is directly connected to YHWH's very own reconciliation of needy, desperate and willing human beings.

It is only connected because you want it to be connected. If that gives you
strength then I'm all for it, but do not claim that your decision to make a
"change of heart" is evidence of any supernatural force.

I could equally well tell the story of my parents, both very heavy smokers,
who gave up smoking overnight after a good friend died of lung cancer. They
did not claim a supernatural force was involved; the death made them realise
what they were doing to themselves and to their children.

It is quite common for people to put two and two together and start getting
four once they drop the denial and pretence. No doubt in your case you
saw or heard something perfectly natural, but you have chosen to
interpret it as supernatural.
 

leejosepho

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
I will respectfully spare you a lot of details ...

... however, I did mean to incude this:

In reference to what you had mentioned about another type of "recovery program" or whatever you might call it, I included the mention of "medical treatment" in the above quotation because, in overall "Big-Book" context, that includes psychology and psychiatry. For some "alcoholics", those kinds of treatments are sufficient, and for others, they are not.

Also, and in reference to forums rules: The text I have quoted is not copyrighted. It used to be, but its copyright expired many years ago.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Thinker said:
It is only connected because you want it to be connected.

Not so, and if you like, I will heap on you the evidence of what I have reported.

Thinker said:
... do not claim that your decision to make a "change of heart" is evidence of any supernatural force.

Who are you to be giving me orders, eh?!

Anyway, I have said nothing about any "decision to make a 'change of heart.'" Rather, my decision was this:

"This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
"When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing we became less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of His presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow or the hereafter. We were reborn.
"We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: 'God, I offer myself to Thee - to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!'
"We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him" (pages 62-63, emphasis added).

Thinker said:
I could equally well tell ...

Thank you for the compliment!

Thinker said:
... the story of my parents, both very heavy smokers,
who gave up smoking ...

But see, I have said nothing about giving up drinking. Rather ...

"We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid [concerning alcohol, at least!]. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition" (page 85, emphasis added).

Thinker said:
It is quite common for people to put two and two together and start getting four once they drop the denial and pretence ...

Yes, and believe me, I tried absolutely every one of those add-'em-up or read-'em-and-weep or whatever other kind of formulas that ever came to mind or was presented to me ... and ended up back drinking every time.
 
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Thinker

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

In your last posting you said:

leejosepho said:
But see, I have said nothing about giving up drinking. Rather ...

Then you said:
Yes, and believe me, I tried ... and ended up back drinking every
time.

So, techniques that failed for you resulted in your drinking again. The
implication is that the technique that did work did not result in your drinking
again, that is, you stopped drinking.

That seems like a contradiction to me; you have confirmed that your previous
statements were about giving up drinking.
 

leejosepho

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Thinker said:
So, techniques that failed for you resulted in your drinking again.

Yes, every time I tried to think my way into sober (alcohol-free) living -- "swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books" (page 31), changing "playmates and playgrounds", new jobs and/or "geographical cures" (new cities or states) -- I eventually ended up going back to alcohol for its "relieving effect" in the face of whatever latest or returning and unbearable realities.

Thinker said:
The implication is that the technique that did work did not result in your drinking again ...

I really hate the fact that I will likely sound disagreeable by saying "No" to that statement, but I cannot say "Yes" without risking participation in our (even if inadvertantly) heading off into confusion. For, you see, it is not what did not result from that process that is at issue here. Rather, this discussion is about what (or "who") actually did make possible this specific result:

Again: "And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed" (pages 84-85).

The problem has been removed -- it no longer exists for me. Therefore, it is now not that I *do not* return to drinking, but that I *could not* return to drinking.

Roll that around for a bit, if you like ...
 

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KevinWan said:
Jesus was crucified to relieve us of our sins
That is the most rediculous statement I have ever heard in my whole life.
If Jesus really was the son of God, why would a father allow his son to be murdered when he had the power to stop it?

The bible is a collection of fairy tales.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
Roll that around for a bit, if you like ...

... and, it just struck me that this might help:

"... my friend sat before me, and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. His human will had failed. Doctors had pronounced him incurable. Society was about to lock him up. Like myself, he had admitted complete defeat. Then he had, in effect, been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known!
"Had this power originated in him? Obviously it had not. There had been no more power in him than there was in me at that minute; and this was none at all.
"That floored me. It began to look as though religious people were right after all. Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible. My ideas about miracles were drastically revised right then. Never mind the musty past; here sat a miracle directly across the kitchen table. He shouted great tidings.
"I saw that my friend was much more than inwardly reorganized [and now "not drinking" as a result]. He was on a different footing. His roots grasped a new soil ..." (A.A. "Big Book", pages 11-12, emphasis and point of reference added).

"One night, when confined in a hospital, [another man, a preacher's son] was approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience. Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out: 'If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me!' But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: 'Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?' While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:
"'Who are you to say there is no God?'
"This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.
"Thus was our friend's cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the thought of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity" (pages 56-57, emphasis added).
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
I really hate the fact that I will likely sound disagreeable by saying "No" to that statement, but I cannot say "Yes" without risking participation in our (even if inadvertantly) heading off into confusion. For, you see, it is not what did not result from that process that is at issue here. Rather, this discussion is about what (or "who") actually did make possible this specific result:

The particular post was about showing that you were contradicting yourself.
You are attempting to avoid admitting that by sidestepping the issue. Stick
to the point. I said:

So, techniques that failed for you resulted in your drinking again. The
implication is that the technique that did work did not result in your drinking
again, that is, you stopped drinking.

That seems like a contradiction to me; you have confirmed that your previous
statements were about giving up drinking.

Either you stopped drinking or you did not. You can't have it both ways.

Whichever is true, you have contradicted yourself.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Thinker said:
The particular post was about showing that you ...
You are attempting to avoid admitting ... by sidestepping ...
... you have contradicted ...

Mr. Thinker: Please spend some time thinking about why you seem to be so obsessed with talking about me. Truly, I am actually a bore to many people.

Thinker said:
Stick to the point ...

Yeah, and there again you go presuming to command me!

But, oh well, nevertheless and okay ...

Thinker said:
Either you stopped drinking or you did not. You can't have it both ways.

Certainly not, but those options are too limited ...

... for in fact, my drinking was stopped *for* me - see above, pun intended - and *that* did not happen until *after* I had actually "quit trying to quit".

My grandfather, a veteran of both WWI and WWII, by the way, used to say one of his favorite Bible verses was about "God" (allegedly) helping those who help themselves. However, I have since learned there is no such idea either presented or present anywhere within Scripture.

Man cannot save himself, Thinker. Man needs a Saviour, The Creator saves, and He does not help anybody save himself.

Even if you believe all of that is pure rubbish, hogwash, hooey or whatever, do you at least understand what I am saying?

When sought, YHWH does for man what man cannot do ...

... such as undeniably evident in my very own permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism.
 
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Thinker

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
Mr. Thinker: Please spend some time thinking about why you seem to be so obsessed with talking about me. Truly, I am actually a bore to many people.

Indeed you are.

I have shown that you contradicted yourself. Rather than admit that and
move the debate on, you continue to evade the point and hope that your
verbiage will make it look as though you are right.

You ignore what has actually been said and you draw conclusions that do not
follow from the previous statements. You have accused me of saying things
that I never said. You have done this in several threads.

It doesn't work. You just make yourself look ever more ridiculous.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
When sought, YHWH does for man what man cannot do ...

... such as undeniably evident in my very own permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism.

congrats, you just converted me, its is UNDENIABLE that god got you through your alcoholism, absolutely undeniable, there is no evidence to the contrary is there? therefore it must be true, after all, it was you who claimed that the burden of proof is NOT on the person making the claim, so if there isn't evidence that proves you wrong then you don't have to prove yourself? am i right? :roll: :roll: :roll:
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Thinker said:
Indeed you ...
I have shown that you ...
... you continue ...
You ignore ...
... you draw conclusions that do not ...
You have accused ...

It doesn't work. You just make yourself look ever more ridiculous.

Since I do not know how to convey a facial expression of "honest and quiet concern" here on the screen, maybe this sentence will suffice.

Please listen, my fellow thinker: I know with absolute certainty that I could not possibly say or do anything whatsoever to *keep from* looking "ever more ridiculous" in the eyes of at least certain people. Therefore, and if I have actually done any of the things you have alleged, I could only have done so in ignorance after slipping back into a former subconscious behaviour in which an altered reality is formed to make things either tolerable or bearable.

Is that essentially what you might believe about me?
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

TheTruth said:
congrats, you just converted me ...

Not possible, as I have no ablility or power to "convert" anyone.

TheTruth said:
... its is UNDENIABLE that god got you through your alcoholism, absolutely undeniable, there is no evidence to the contrary is there?

None that I have seen so far.

TheTruth said:
... therefore it must be true, after all, it was you who claimed that the burden of proof is NOT on the person making the claim ...

No, I did not say that. Rather, I had questioned the statement that the "opposition" did not have to "prove" its own claim, and I later tried to make it clear that my "evidence" and/or "proof" were not being presented on any presumption of being sufficient to actually convince or persuade - your "convert" - anyone.

TheTruth said:
... so if there isn't evidence that proves you wrong then you don't have to prove yourself? am i right?

No, I think not, at least as to your first question ...

... but as to your second, that would depend upon what you are actually talking about when you ask if you are "right", or actually, correct.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
No, I think not, at least as to your first question ...

... but as to your second, that would depend upon what you are actually talking about when you ask if you are "right", or actually, correct.


me said:
... so if there isn't evidence that proves you wrong then you don't have to prove yourself? am i right?

isn't it obvious what i'm asking "am i right?" about. and right means the same thing as correct, it also means the opposite of left, so i don't know why you put "or actually, correct." :confused:
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

TheTruth said:
... right means the same thing as correct, it also means the opposite of left, so i don't know why you put "or actually, correct."

I did that arrogantly and unnecessarily, and I apologize for the distraction.

TheTruth said:
isn't it obvious what i'm asking "am i right?" about.

At the time I first read your post, no, to me it was not. However, it now seems so ...

TheTruth said:
if there isn't evidence that proves you wrong then you don't have to prove yourself? am i right?

Yes. In a court of law, one is presumed innocent or not responsible or whatever (and therefore in no need of proof of oneself) until *after* evidence has first been presented against him or her ... such as in this case, either against my report of formerly experiencing "chronic alcoholism", or of having since "permanently recovered". And of course, and since I am specifically stating I am *not* the one who is responsible for either*, any such argument would actually be with whoever actually is responsible for whatever is being questioned.
(*Note: This is the first time I have said that about alcoholism.)
 
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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
I did that arrogantly and unnecessarily, and I apologize for the distraction.

no worries :smile:

leejosepho said:
Yes. In a court of law, one is presumed innocent or not responsible or whatever (and therefore in no need of proof of oneself) until *after* evidence has first been presented against him or her ... such as in this case, either against my report of formerly experiencing "chronic alcoholism", or of having since "permanently recovered". And of course, and since I am specifically stating I am *not* the one who is responsible for either*, any such argument would actually be with whoever actually is responsible for whatever is being questioned.
(*Note: This is the first time I have said that about alcoholism.)

the claim (from my P.O.V) is that god exists, you think that the claim is that you recovered from alcoholism on your own, i see where you are coming from but i'm confident this is just your way of squirming out of giving any proof of anything you have said in this thread, you have a remarkable way of spinning things. to be honest you are slightly annoying, i'm sure you will this is because you have out-debated me but its not this, in my opinion you debate like a politician (don't answer any questions, but have an air of cockiness because you know you can't be called on your points) so i will be done with this thread as its getting tedious.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

TheTruth said:
the claim (from my P.O.V.) is that god exists, you think that the claim is that you recovered from alcoholism on your own ...

Yes, essentially so, and I hold that position and argue it I do just on the outside chance that another alcoholic might somehow stumble across that information in the face of his or her own inability to quit for good and all.

TheTruth said:
i see where you are coming from but i'm confident this is just your way of squirming out of giving any proof of anything you have said in this thread ...

For *everything* I have said, I have offered the very proof that has already convinced me and many others both now dead and yet alive, and I respect your or anyone's right to reject that "proof" completely. Again: I have never claimed any ability to convince anyone of anything, and it is the spin of others that presumes to say that proves I have offered no proof.

TheTruth said:
you have a remarkable way of spinning things.

Yes, I do, but I have not done that here. Rather, I have learned to rightly use that whatever-it-is ability to actually *unravel* things - see my "signature" - that have/had long baffled many people, especially myself.

TheTruth said:
to be honest you are slightly annoying ...

Yes, I know, and at least to some degree, I apologize for that. I do not mean to be a nuisance to anyone, yet I will do just about anything at all to attempt to share even any of my overall and personal experience that might in even the slightest way ever prove helpful to anyone.

TheTruth said:
i'm sure you will [think] this is because you have out-debated me but its not this ...

For what it might be worth, I do not look at any of this as having out-debated anyone. So no, I do not believe it is your ego calling me a nuisance!

TheTruth said:
in my opinion you debate like a politician (don't answer any questions, but have an air of cockiness because you know you can't be called on your points) so i will be done with this thread as its getting tedious.

Oh, and without hating you: How I hate it when people give up so easily ...

Personally, I always used to fight until I was completely certain I had lost absolutely!

... and would anyone care to list the questions I have allegedly not answered? At the very least, I would try to explain why I did not.

In my own opinion, this entire discussion is proof of my own answer to the question of this thread:

"Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?"

Because they have absolutely no evidence against Him - not a single shred, and only their personal objections - in the face of clear and undeniable proof of His handiwork!
 
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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

leejosepho said:
Rubbish, my fellow thinker! that is pure rubbish! To wit:

“We, of [the original] Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill ...” (“Alcoholics Anonymous”, page 17);

“On one proposition ... these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American statesman put it, ‘Let's look at the record.’
“Here are thousands of men and women, worldly indeed. They flatly declare that since they have come to believe in a Power greater than themselves, to take a certain attitude toward that Power, and to do certain simple things, there has been a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking. In the face of collapse and despair, in the face of the total failure of their human resources, they found that a new power, peace, happiness, and sense of direction flowed into them. This happened soon after they whole-heartedly met a few simple requirements ...” (page 50).

"When a few men in this city have found themselves, and have discovered the joy of helping others to face life again, there will be no stopping until everyone in that town has had his opportunity to recover - if he can and will" (pages 163-4).

Do you know anyone who has tried and has yet to permanently recover from chronic alcoholism?

If so, would his or her own permanent recovery prove anything to you?

If not, please pass along my personal guarantee and put us in touch anyway ...

leejosepho@hotmail.com

I can tell you one person who has done it. Me. No need to rely on a god to help me. I didn't have to have the help of a god to get myself screwed up with alcoholism.

It's just like getting over any other addiction. It ultimately comes down to willpower. Some people need a crutch to help them.

As for "thousands of men and women, worldly indeed", numbers are not proof. It used to be commonly held that the earth was flat. It used to be commonly held that everything revolved around the earth. Just because things are believed by most people, doesn't mean they are right.

That is one of the things that I find truly amusing. When something bad happens, it's because a person screwed up, but when something good happens, it's because of god.

I haven't specifically seen it with Katrina, but I'm willing to bet that there's somebody who has thanked god for looking out for them and helping them survive the hurricane. Why don't they also blame god for sending the hurricane in the first place.
 

leejosepho

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

MrFungus420 said:
I can tell you one person who has done it. Me. No need to rely on a god to help me. I didn't have to have the help of a god to get myself screwed up with alcoholism.

It's just like getting over any other addiction. It ultimately comes down to willpower. Some people need a crutch to help them.

So then, and on my own no-reservations admission of my most definitely needing a "crutch" of whatever kind - Why do people care so much as to what it actually was, eh?! - we have no disagreement on this matter, correct? In fact, I would offer to you something along this line ...

"If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman [or even quit altogether], our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people [and to finally quit for good and all]!" ("A.A.", page 31).
 

Ryan

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

I better question for you, 128shot - Why is it that theist's always have a problem with atheist/agnostic beliefs? I find it far more common to hear a thiest telling an atheist/agnostic individual what is what. This however, is not the point and while I could turn this into a very long and tedious debate on the merits of religion and biblical context (which is really just a waste of time), I wont. What will happen is that we will get into a quoting war and you will retaliate by telling me that I took certain passages out of context, but at the same time I can say the exact same thing about you because everyone that reads the bible will take it in a different context.

Let me also note that your understanding of atheism/agnosticism is misguided, at least from what I can figure from the title of this thread. Atheist's do not go as far as claiming that they know there is no god. Atheist's are simply people who lack the belief that there is a higer power in this world. You can call that person a "strong atheist" but not an atheist, just like you would with a strong Christian. Not everyone is a fanatic. Furthermore, agnosticism is based on uncertainty as to whether or not there is a god. I, via that very definition am an agnostic. I do not know if there is a god, I have not encountered this "divine intervention", that so many Catholics speak of. There is no proof that a god exists and therefore, I do no gamble my life on something that could very long lasting old wives tale.

Now, from what this thread suggests, you've encountered fanatical atheist's who have clearly told you that there is no god. Actual atheist's/agnostics will, however, be far less abrassive with their views. Like I said, I am agnostic - While I believe that there is more to life than a bunch of scientific theories, laws and equations, I believe that science can exaplin alot of things that religion cannot. I believe both could very well work hand in hand, if the everyone got past the egotistical bullshit, but what are the chances of that? I also do not judge people on their beliefs. I'm not going to say that there is no god and I'm not going to say Catholicism is wrong, the same as I wont say that about any other religion because lets face it, there is no tangable way to disprove any religion. I leave myself open and try to be as best a person I can be and if not believing in a religion is going to send me straight to hell (if there is a hell), then so be it.

To clarify my stance, I am not a religious person. I have faith in a great may things, proven or not. I am not a religious person; a) because I believe in aspects of different religions which really isn't accepted by any one religion and b) because I find religion to be restrictive and controlling (this is more of an elaboration of my first reason). I was born and initially raised a roman catholic, I have my baptism and first communion. However, since I was a kid I never really connected with that religion, just like I wouldn't connect with any other religion. The problem is that I don't believe that the world is black and white. I believe that it is far more complex than many people want to make it. Religion one of many ways of explaining the mysteries of life. Science is another. Both have their theories and both have what they consider proof. So, which is right? I don't know. I don't believe that any of us truly no and therefore I leave myself in a position where I believe that while any religion (or mixture of religions) could be absolute, science could be absolute too or hell, even a mixture of both could be.

I believe that everyone has the right to choose what they believe in, free of prejudice from anyone else, I'm in no position to say they're wrong. However, that's just me and it's clearly not an accurate depiction of the wrold today, case and point would be the constant bantering/insults in debate threads. Some people don't want to hear it. I hope this made some sense, it's been a long day and it's late.
 

MrFungus420

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Ryan, if that's the sort of post you can come up with when you're tired, I'm almost afraid to see what you could manage if you were well rested.

Very nicely said.
 

leejosepho

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Ryan said:
I believe that everyone has the right to choose what they believe in, free of prejudice from anyone else, I'm in no position to say they're wrong. However, that's just me and it's clearly not an accurate depiction of the wrold today, case and point would be the constant bantering/insults in debate threads. Some people don't want to hear it. I hope this made some sense, it's been a long day and it's late.

I would say essentially the same thing, including your mention of yesterday!

Other than the responsibilities of parents to train and teach their children, we each have the "right to choose", so to speak, as to what we believe or believe in and so on. And, not even parents have any right to try to make their children ultimately believe or believe in anything. However ...

Rightly saying someone believes wrongly or "believes in" something that will not work or whatever at least *can* come from personal knowledge or experience, and not only wrongly from any "position" one might assume. For example, I would be free to believe a flat tire would work okay if the flat part was turned to the top, but it would not be wrong of someone else to point out that I was about to "believe in" a given action or process that could only fail.

Ryan said:
However, that's just me and it's clearly not an accurate depiction of the wrold today, case and point would be the constant bantering/insults in debate threads. Some people don't want to hear it.

Yes, and for whatever reason or reasons, neither do some people want still others to hear whatever is being said or shared, and I have learned there is even more than one reason for that. Overall, however, I believe all of this comes down to mankind's common or communal need for a sense of "the more, the merrier" security.
 
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Dogger807

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

If you don't mind, I think I will jump in with a reply to the original question.

I think I'm one of the most abrasive atheists on the forums.

I think the most common answear to your question is "it's a defense mechanism." Atheist don't go around stating your immoral simple because your a christian as christians call atheists evil by definition. Frankly I believe this leads to a very valid argument as to why religion is just a control mechanism, but that is neither here nor now. My point here is that atheism is a strike against you in the eyes of a theist. You simply have to defend yourself and let others know you are their equal even if you don't believe the way they do.

Another reason would be the personality types most common with atheists. for example.

1. Intelligence is a must. You almost never hear of a below average person being an atheist. (IE. the percentage of people per capita who are nonreligious rises as IQ rises. Ironically as IQ rises charisma tends to drop.) (please note: this explains how we got an idiot for a president.) Incidentally you end up with a lot of highly intelligent people who don't know when not to say "I told you so."
2. You have to be unaffected by the opinions of others. Let's face it being an atheist is a stigmatizim. We are almost treated as second class citizens despite the fact that we are 10% of the population. So we fall into two categories here. Those that just sit back and let the world be and those who are willing to speak out their beliefs. You can't declare yourself an atheist without being willing to defend your conclusions.

and that is rather truncated, but we'll stop there.

If you really don't want to hear from atheists it would be simple.

1. stop trying to equate religion to science. Intelligent design isn't a valid scientific theory and it never will be.
2. stop trying to cram religion down our throats. I rejected your beliefs in the first place , stop acting as if they are fact and stop trying to make or circumvent laws to make me have to live with your religion. He's supposed to be a personal god.. keep him to yourself.
3. Quit trying to teach our kids to be religious. I don't try to teach your kids to be atheists.

Religion will eventually fall to science.. that's why religion does it's best to stagnate Science.
 
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