Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

[KevinWan]

All right. So, I'll kill my younger brother and crucify him to get rid of all the sins in the world.

Ridiculous, do what you want.

Ridiculous assumption. Do you have a source that confirms what you're saying?

The base for the western civilization? What are you talking about? Everyone knows the main difference is our higher advanced technology and economy. It is certainly a fact that uneducated countries have more believers.

Sure, I can find many sources... heres just one:
http://www.grecoreport.com/western_civilization_and_christianity.htm

So are you implying that those in the East are somehow stupid and incapable of forming economies, and technology?? Japan and China have two of the greatest economies in the world. The Chinese championed many, practically uncountable, technological advances in that civilizations early years. Japan, South Korea, the Middle East are not exactly "uneducated." Western Civilization has more believers than the East and Middle East. It is certainly NOT fact that they have more... thats completely false.

Religion makes people naieve. Instead of basing themselves on their "earthish" life, they believe they will have better lives in the afterlife.



Cavemen made paintings at the wall to influence their hunt.

Religion grew out of superstition, when man feared to fail and he feared for natural phenomenons such as violent storms at sea. He also used religion ininitially to describe natural phenomonenons, such as the appearance of planets at the top of the sky.

Once more: Religion has nothing to do with morality.

The definition of religion can be simply described:
- a belief in the existence of a deity or god
- a belief in a supernatural force



I'm glad you read past my entire post.

Who are you to claim what is wrong and right? You say "Using abortion just because it felt good is wrong."; that's wrong. Morality is the difference between good and bad. If the mother feels better after abortion, it's moral. An embryo has no soul, as I'd say.

And don't forget religion is yet another reason for discrimination ...

Sure, I'll agree religion is often used to explain the unexplainable... but that is a vital entity to our survival as a species. We will NEVER be able to explain everything in the entire universe. We will always need God to explain to us what we simply cannot understand.

Morality is the difference between good and evil. Killing life is evil. Especially under the circumstances that were within the control of the woman. So, if morality is simply a measure of how good something feels, then the Holocaust was moral, murder can be moral, stealing... yup that too. Morality has nothing to do with what feels good. It doesnt exactly feel good from holding yourself back from the urgences of evil. Thats hard to do. Morality and God provides reason not too. Relgion governs morality.

 

[Parmenion]

leejosepho:

I know several lads who were chronic alcoholics and recovered without God's intervention. By proxy, you could have to. Citing that as proof of existence is weak.

Can I ask your comments on whether you think that a woman raped and imprenated should be allowed to abort a kid a child to save her a life of misery. I would loveto hear your views lee.

Naughty nurse - good posts

DonRicardo = again well done

V.I. Lenin - regarding jews contingencies manipulating the American governemnt - that has happened a lot I could cite examples till the cows come home.

 

[DonRicardo]

Ridiculous, do what you want.

This was a sarcastic example to show your ignorance of the naieve morality as found in the Bible.

Sure, I'll agree religion is often used to explain the unexplainable... but that is a vital entity to our survival as a species. We will NEVER be able to explain everything in the entire universe. We will always need God to explain to us what we simply cannot understand.

Or we can enhance our explanations. Knowledge expands.

Morality is the difference between good and evil.

Killing life is evil.

I'm glad you make a statement again without telling why. You simply read past what I said.

So, if morality is simply a measure of how good something feels, then the Holocaust was moral, murder can be moral, stealing... yup that too.

Wrong. I never said that. I said that the child has no soul, thus no one else suffers. Abortion is moral.

Morality has nothing to do with what feels good. It doesnt exactly feel good from holding yourself back from the urgences of evil. Thats hard to do. Morality and God provides reason not too.

Morality has everything to do with what feels good. If I do something good, another might feel himself better.

Relgion governs morality.

A ridiculous statement.

I'll give you a complicated example of morality to help you on your way.
I have 100$. How would I spend it most moral?

1. Would I donate to UNICEF to help South-East-Asia. They can make a pipeline for an entire village.
2. Would I give it to Ethiopian children whose lives can be changed but in the longer term, they will die most likely.
3. Or should I make a donation for scientific purpose. Within 100 years our planet might be gone. If entire human race fails, there will be more casualties.
4. Should I invest the money so I can save more lives. If the investment works, I save more lifes, if it fails, I save less.

This is a very simple example. Do you agree with me that this example cannot be found in the BIble, that neither "God", neither "Christ" gave me a solution?

Morality is the find the "best" solution and not only to define the difference between good and bad.

This is how the world really is.

 

[128shot]

Umm...

radical "islam" (its not true to the islamic faith, but it pretends to be), has ran amock on several governments....

 

[Parmenion]

New age Christianity is not true to the original - whats your point?

 

[128shot]

to be quite honest,


I don't know why we can't leave each other alone...

 

[KevinWan]

This was a sarcastic example to show your ignorance of the naieve morality as found in the Bible.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus was crucified to relieve us of our sins... no where does the Bible tell you to crucify your brother.

Or we can enhance our explanations. Knowledge expands.

Sure we can... but we will never be able to explain every last thing in the universe. Face it.

Wrong. I never said that. I said that the child has no soul, thus no one else suffers. Abortion is moral.



Morality has everything to do with what feels good. If I do something good, another might feel himself better.

Yes you did say that... "Morality is the difference between good and bad. If the mother feels better after abortion, it's moral." You said IF THE MOTHER FEELS GOOD ITS MORAL. So by that thesis... the Holocaust was moral, Hitler was moral, Stalin was moral, the terrorists are moral, etc. etc. They all feel good too.

And you, being a non-believe in Christ... why in the world are you mentioning souls? In your mind they should be non-existence entirely. I thought you were "agnostic," or what have you.

A ridiculous statement.

I'll give you a complicated example of morality to help you on your way.
I have 100$. How would I spend it most moral?

1. Would I donate to UNICEF to help South-East-Asia. They can make a pipeline for an entire village.
2. Would I give it to Ethiopian children whose lives can be changed but in the longer term, they will die most likely.
3. Or should I make a donation for scientific purpose. Within 100 years our planet might be gone. If entire human race fails, there will be more casualties.
4. Should I invest the money so I can save more lives. If the investment works, I save more lifes, if it fails, I save less.

This is a very simple example. Do you agree with me that this example cannot be found in the BIble, that neither "God", neither "Christ" gave me a solution?

Morality is the find the "best" solution and not only to define the difference between good and bad.

This is how the world really is.

Religion governs morality... It gives many people REASON to do what you will do with your 100$. The idea of giving to those in need, and only have the bare minimum of what you need came from... guess who... JESUS. Going to heaven in the afterlife is the reward for living a good life. Thats how it governs what one does. And why did you just throw out a new definition for morality?? Before you said it was what feels good, now its FINDING THE BEST SOLUTION...

 

[Parmenion]

If you know your bible and its origins Kevin, you would know that the beginnings were what the Hebrews stole from ancient Semite propaghanda against the agriculturalists. The bible is a collection of stories from a myriad of races and beliefs. A lot of it is representative. If you choose to place faith in a thing I suggest you know its roots.

Jesus was not crucified for "our" sins, but for his sins. He was a public figure who was quite radical for his time and executed for it. Doesn't mean he was a bad lad. He was a revolutionary, much like Luther and Socrates.

To say that we will never be able to explain everything in the universe is undermining the human ability to survive and educate itself over time. We are young as a race, but we have godlike powers to those who came before us. Would they see us as dieties if they could see us? Most likely. Should we worship something more advanced because we have not yet attained that level? Take it in context. We should not be worshipped anymore than some (by our standrads) more advanced entity.

If you actually bother to read about the Holocaust you will note that the Jews declared a Holy war in 1933 on Germany and were starving 2/3 of its population. I dont know about you but if someone did that to my country I'd be kinda peeved. Moral? Was the declaration of their Holy war on Germany moral? Do you know your history at all?

Stalin took a country which was comepletely outclassed in a war and beat back two fronts winning against far superior foes. Then took that country into being a superpower. How can morality be attributed to the good works he done? There are statues of Stalin in Russia. Some revered hmi, some hated him. But the same could be said abaout American presidents in the past regarding morality. You know - a country does what it needs to do. America exterminated plenty of peoples. Many countries have. Why cite just two popular examples? Nations are built on suffering and man feels his way through time to better and better society.

Agnostic is a belief in something but you dont know what it is. Liek a belief in nature. A soul can mean the essence of a persons being. Their are many interpretations of the word, not just a religious one. Go look up a dictionary.

Religion governs beliefs in certain matters and while it may instill morality it doesnt govern it. Morality can exist outside religion and therefore it is incorrect to state that religion governs it.

I am curious to know though Kevin - do you think it possible for a person not to believe in a god, lead a good life with morals and if there is a heaven enter it?

 

[KevinWan]

If you know your bible and its origins Kevin, you would know that the beginnings were what the Hebrews stole from ancient Semite propaghanda against the agriculturalists. The bible is a collection of stories from a myriad of races and beliefs. A lot of it is representative. If you choose to place faith in a thing I suggest you know its roots.

Jesus was not crucified for "our" sins, but for his sins. He was a public figure who was quite radical for his time and executed for it. Doesn't mean he was a bad lad. He was a revolutionary, much like Luther and Socrates.

Jesus did indeed die NOT for his SINS, but for his radical ideals... He did however, die for OUR sins... he died for the Lord to forgive our sins.

If you actually bother to read about the Holocaust you will note that the Jews declared a Holy war in 1933 on Germany and were starving 2/3 of its population. I dont know about you but if someone did that to my country I'd be kinda peeved. Moral? Was the declaration of their Holy war on Germany moral? Do you know your history at all?

Nothing you just stated is pertinant to anything I was talking about. DonRicardo seems to think morality is measured by what makes people feel good... Hitler and the Nazis felt like they were doing something good by killing Jews... it made them feel good. That certainly did not make it MORAL.

Stalin took a country which was comepletely outclassed in a war and beat back two fronts winning against far superior foes. Then took that country into being a superpower. How can morality be attributed to the good works he done? There are statues of Stalin in Russia. Some revered hmi, some hated him. But the same could be said abaout American presidents in the past regarding morality. You know - a country does what it needs to do. America exterminated plenty of peoples. Many countries have. Why cite just two popular examples? Nations are built on suffering and man feels his way through time to better and better society.

Oh gee I'm sorry for not going to extremes to state every single immoral person ever to step foot on planet earth...



[QUOTE-Parmenion]Agnostic is a belief in something but you dont know what it is. Liek a belief in nature. A soul can mean the essence of a persons being. Their are many interpretations of the word, not just a religious one. Go look up a dictionary.

Religion governs beliefs in certain matters and while it may instill morality it doesnt govern it. Morality can exist outside religion and therefore it is incorrect to state that religion governs it.

I am curious to know though Kevin - do you think it possible for a person not to believe in a god, lead a good life with morals and if there is a heaven enter it?[/QUOTE]

They quite possibly could. Jesus teaches to forgive your brother infinately. God can forgive those who don't believe in Him, although I think He'd prefer if they did.

 

[kal-el]

If you know your bible and its origins Kevin, you would know that the beginnings were what the Hebrews stole from ancient Semite propaghanda against the agriculturalists. The bible is a collection of stories from a myriad of races and beliefs. A lot of it is representative. If you choose to place faith in a thing I suggest you know its roots.

Jesus was not crucified for "our" sins, but for his sins. He was a public figure who was quite radical for his time and executed for it. Doesn't mean he was a bad lad. He was a revolutionary, much like Luther and Socrates.

To say that we will never be able to explain everything in the universe is undermining the human ability to survive and educate itself over time. We are young as a race, but we have godlike powers to those who came before us. Would they see us as dieties if they could see us? Most likely. Should we worship something more advanced because we have not yet attained that level? Take it in context. We should not be worshipped anymore than some (by our standrads) more advanced entity.

If you actually bother to read about the Holocaust you will note that the Jews declared a Holy war in 1933 on Germany and were starving 2/3 of its population. I dont know about you but if someone did that to my country I'd be kinda peeved. Moral? Was the declaration of their Holy war on Germany moral? Do you know your history at all?

Stalin took a country which was comepletely outclassed in a war and beat back two fronts winning against far superior foes. Then took that country into being a superpower. How can morality be attributed to the good works he done? There are statues of Stalin in Russia. Some revered hmi, some hated him. But the same could be said abaout American presidents in the past regarding morality. You know - a country does what it needs to do. America exterminated plenty of peoples. Many countries have. Why cite just two popular examples? Nations are built on suffering and man feels his way through time to better and better society.

Agnostic is a belief in something but you dont know what it is. Liek a belief in nature. A soul can mean the essence of a persons being. Their are many interpretations of the word, not just a religious one. Go look up a dictionary.

Religion governs beliefs in certain matters and while it may instill morality it doesnt govern it. Morality can exist outside religion and therefore it is incorrect to state that religion governs it.

I am curious to know though Kevin - do you think it possible for a person not to believe in a god, lead a good life with morals and if there is a heaven enter it?

Agreed. Excellent post Parmenion!

 

[rees]

I never understood this, why is there such a burning desire for athiests to tell me "there is no good" and all that yak? why?

im an agnostic that is... I am uncertain if there is a single entity or multiple entities that might have created the universe?...etc..or basically because No one is obviously certain, what is exactly , if anything, is in the afterlife....if it was certain, we all wouldn't have our own opinions of an afterlife, if it exists. why does it have to be some powerful being awaiting us?..why not just erase the concept of god, and say when you die, you are greeted by your loved ones?..etc...

good exists , good is something that encompasses many things, good is something manifested from intelligence and feelings...the moment you say 'this is good', in whatever language it may be, you have given the solid evidence that good exists,..you have acknowledged it just by saying those 3 words...

i don't have a problem with Religion... Religion has done so many Good, but Religion can be used in a horrible way,

...what bugs me about religion?

1. People using Religion to Kill others. using it to justify it.
2. People using Religion as the reason to say something is wrong, just like what kelzie said, ..
3. an article taken from a site:

''Members of a church say God is punishing American soldiers for defending a country that harbors gays, and they brought

their anti-gay message to the funerals Saturday of two Tennessee soldiers killed in Iraq. ''

this is Wrong.... People were mourning, and they interrupted them with this crap,
This is what i call true evil. im not gay btw...can you see Jesus interrupting and yelling at a group of mourners mourning for their loved ones?

KevinWan ""God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc""

thats whats wrong, poeple using God as a moral and ethic code. Sure religion can teach good morals, etc..but Use those morals without involving a being that is only in our imaginations...That will create a Stronger argument.... saying things like , Abortion is wrong because God said so...its just not.. right..to say it...it has no Sense in it....and it wont convince poeple(exception is the very religious christian person), very weak argument and shows no respect for other religions by mentioning it in such a way, because not everyone believes in a single God.....that is why the Church shouldn't be involved in governing people,,,it might have governed in the past in an era of primitive societies and no technology, but in this era, it wont work... because we all know what happens when religion takes over, poeple being burned because they are witches..everyone will be superstitious and poeple will die or be freed from crimes because the 'devil' made them...etc. also, the wars that happens today in 3rd world countries, doesn't some of them occur cause of religious reasons?..thats another crappy thing i hate, poeple killing because of religion.

i also have to mention the popular christian Bible...

it is Written by man..

we all like to think something good out there is watching out for us, doesn't even have to be a powerful god-like being...we all like to believe in unexplainable miracles..magic...out of the harshness of life..

even 2k years ago, poeple were just as capable of exxagerations..and Also capable of boredom, capable of wanting to spice things up...capable of manipulating the truth with your own words , with your own truths...

all those events could have happened in the bible, except the whole idea of God is not there, merely something in the imaginations of the writers, the religious, even the religious/gullible mind of the speaker who tells the historian or writer about an event that happened...stories passed by word of mouth can be proven to be exxagerated..

even if there was a Jesus...he may well have been roaming around and preached... and just happened to help kickstart his own religion... he was someone who was ambitious enough to do so...that he may well have died for our sins because he happened to care about people greatly and that his intentions were true and good, ..that all he probably wanted to was give hope and believed in good and the afterlife..etc...his works would have contributed many good things...but even Jesus probably thought the best way he could influence poeple was to say he was the son of God..etc,..taking advantage of the era where poeple had lesser understanding of the world...when life is harsher..religion is a very powerful influential thing and a very suggestive religious person can see events as miracles, an act by God..etc..

There is a reason why religion such as christianity, buddhism..etc have such a very Strong foundation and influence, and i think thats because it occurred such a long time ago.

no one would be able to create a religion as influential as christianity..etc today, because the fact many good ideals are already covered by a religion, television, the internet..etc..people today have much more understanding of the world...one can learn wisdom , good morals without religion these days, morals and values seeps through every medium such as tv, forums on the internet,..etc,

Religion created as far back as 2k years ago, has a stronger foundation because poeple back then, even if they were no less intelligent then us today, they had lesser understanding of the world around them, and easily influenced by the religions that give hope to the poeple under cruelty ,fear , the oppression, the harshness of life back then....and religion was really the most effective medium to govern good morals and ideals to follow and uphold..etc...and leaders using them for their own advantage to hold their position of power..

so basically, if you want a religion to dominate, then it has to be done in an era when no technology exist, and when life is harsh enough where poeple need hope to keep their sanity.

but does the events in the bible even matter? true or not?, exxagerated or not? does it have anything to do with what you are trying to seek? some poeple probably dont even Read the bible, and yet call themselves christians...and these people are not believing because of the stories, they are believing because they have 'hope'...have belief in the afterlife? belief in beings or being which enforces all that is good?
because people need direction?

i think religion is not about learning about whats right or wrong, atleast thats not why poeple truly devote to one...it can consist of all the wisdom in the world,..but without that hope factor, the god factor...the heaven factor..etc, poeple wont follow it, its not the true reasons poeple become christians, buddhists...etc... because it'll no longer be a religion without such magical things...i'd like to think the true purpose of a religion is to give hope to someone, a hope of an afterlife...

the thing is, we all realize that there are hundreds of religions out there, conflicting ideas about what may happen in the afterlife, ie: reincarnation, judged by God..etc makes it evident that no one can be certain...but maybe all of it can be true...who knows...religions play their part in a civilization, but only because people need direction for their hopes, to erase fear and give some purpose in life...and the good morals you learn from Religion is just the icing on the cake...an effective medium to deliver good morals and teachings...

...even if someone were agnostic such as i...that doesn't mean i do not seek hope, peace, purpose as well...im no different in the desire to seek the very same things as a religious person seeks...

everthing i've said were my assumptions...i still think im far from understanding things, other poeple, myself...etc...im more for more understanding, and less ignorance.


these are pretty much some thoughts i have as an agnostic...

 

[rees]

i can't find the edit button for the post above..:\..

and i just have to say one thing,... allow abortions, but add limitations...

 

[kal-el]

im an agnostic that is... I am uncertain if there is a single entity or multiple entities that might have created the universe?...etc..or basically because No one is obviously certain, what is exactly , if anything, is in the afterlife....if it was certain, we all wouldn't have our own opinions of an afterlife, if it exists. why does it have to be some powerful being awaiting us?..why not just erase the concept of god, and say when you die, you are greeted by your loved ones?..etc...

good exists , good is something that encompasses many things, good is something manifested from intelligence and feelings...the moment you say 'this is good', in whatever language it may be, you have given the solid evidence that good exists,..you have acknowledged it just by saying those 3 words...

i don't have a problem with Religion... Religion has done so many Good, but Religion can be used in a horrible way,

...what bugs me about religion?

1. People using Religion to Kill others. using it to justify it.
2. People using Religion as the reason to say something is wrong, just like what kelzie said, ..
3. an article taken from a site:

''Members of a church say God is punishing American soldiers for defending a country that harbors gays, and they brought

their anti-gay message to the funerals Saturday of two Tennessee soldiers killed in Iraq. ''

this is Wrong.... People were mourning, and they interrupted them with this crap,
This is what i call true evil. im not gay btw...can you see Jesus interrupting and yelling at a group of mourners mourning for their loved ones?

KevinWan ""God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc""

thats whats wrong, poeple using God as a moral and ethic code. Sure religion can teach good morals, etc..but Use those morals without involving a being that is only in our imaginations...That will create a Stronger argument.... saying things like , Abortion is wrong because God said so...its just not.. right..to say it...it has no Sense in it....and it wont convince poeple(exception is the very religious christian person), very weak argument and shows no respect for other religions by mentioning it in such a way, because not everyone believes in a single God.....that is why the Church shouldn't be involved in governing people,,,it might have governed in the past in an era of primitive societies and no technology, but in this era, it wont work... because we all know what happens when religion takes over, poeple being burned because they are witches..everyone will be superstitious and poeple will die or be freed from crimes because the 'devil' made them...etc. also, the wars that happens today in 3rd world countries, doesn't some of them occur cause of religious reasons?..thats another crappy thing i hate, poeple killing because of religion.

i also have to mention the popular christian Bible...

it is Written by man..

we all like to think something good out there is watching out for us, doesn't even have to be a powerful god-like being...we all like to believe in unexplainable miracles..magic...out of the harshness of life..

even 2k years ago, poeple were just as capable of exxagerations..and Also capable of boredom, capable of wanting to spice things up...capable of manipulating the truth with your own words , with your own truths...

all those events could have happened in the bible, except the whole idea of God is not there, merely something in the imaginations of the writers, the religious, even the religious/gullible mind of the speaker who tells the historian or writer about an event that happened...stories passed by word of mouth can be proven to be exxagerated..

even if there was a Jesus...he may well have been roaming around and preached... and just happened to help kickstart his own religion... he was someone who was ambitious enough to do so...that he may well have died for our sins because he happened to care about people greatly and that his intentions were true and good, ..that all he probably wanted to was give hope and believed in good and the afterlife..etc...his works would have contributed many good things...but even Jesus probably thought the best way he could influence poeple was to say he was the son of God..etc,..taking advantage of the era where poeple had lesser understanding of the world...when life is harsher..religion is a very powerful influential thing and a very suggestive religious person can see events as miracles, an act by God..etc..

There is a reason why religion such as christianity, buddhism..etc have such a very Strong foundation and influence, and i think thats because it occurred such a long time ago.

no one would be able to create a religion as influential as christianity..etc today, because the fact many good ideals are already covered by a religion, television, the internet..etc..people today have much more understanding of the world...one can learn wisdom , good morals without religion these days, morals and values seeps through every medium such as tv, forums on the internet,..etc,

Religion created as far back as 2k years ago, has a stronger foundation because poeple back then, even if they were no less intelligent then us today, they had lesser understanding of the world around them, and easily influenced by the religions that give hope to the poeple under cruelty ,fear , the oppression, the harshness of life back then....and religion was really the most effective medium to govern good morals and ideals to follow and uphold..etc...and leaders using them for their own advantage to hold their position of power..

so basically, if you want a religion to dominate, then it has to be done in an era when no technology exist, and when life is harsh enough where poeple need hope to keep their sanity.

but does the events in the bible even matter? true or not?, exxagerated or not? does it have anything to do with what you are trying to seek? some poeple probably dont even Read the bible, and yet call themselves christians...and these people are not believing because of the stories, they are believing because they have 'hope'...have belief in the afterlife? belief in beings or being which enforces all that is good?
because people need direction?

i think religion is not about learning about whats right or wrong, atleast thats not why poeple truly devote to one...it can consist of all the wisdom in the world,..but without that hope factor, the god factor...the heaven factor..etc, poeple wont follow it, its not the true reasons poeple become christians, buddhists...etc... because it'll no longer be a religion without such magical things...i'd like to think the true purpose of a religion is to give hope to someone, a hope of an afterlife...

the thing is, we all realize that there are hundreds of religions out there, conflicting ideas about what may happen in the afterlife, ie: reincarnation, judged by God..etc makes it evident that no one can be certain...but maybe all of it can be true...who knows...religions play their part in a civilization, but only because people need direction for their hopes, to erase fear and give some purpose in life...and the good morals you learn from Religion is just the icing on the cake...an effective medium to deliver good morals and teachings...

...even if someone were agnostic such as i...that doesn't mean i do not seek hope, peace, purpose as well...im no different in the desire to seek the very same things as a religious person seeks...

everthing i've said were my assumptions...i still think im far from understanding things, other poeple, myself...etc...im more for more understanding, and less ignorance.


these are pretty much some thoughts i have as an agnostic...

Great post rees! It seems we share identical views on this.:smile:

 

[DonRicardo]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus was crucified to relieve us of our sins... no where does the Bible tell you to crucify your brother.

It's an example of flawed morality stated in the Bible.

Sure we can... but we will never be able to explain every last thing in the universe. Face it.

I did already. They say "Knowledge is power". Why not expand it? Man must be prepared against certain dangers that might occur. If knowledges is too short, it may lead to our extinction.

Yes you did say that... "Morality is the difference between good and bad. If the mother feels better after abortion, it's moral." You said IF THE MOTHER FEELS GOOD ITS MORAL. So by that thesis... the Holocaust was moral, Hitler was moral, Stalin was moral, the terrorists are moral, etc. etc. They all feel good too.

Again, you understood me wrong. I say abortion is moral because NO ONE suffers. An embryo has no consciousness.

Hittler made himself feel good, but killed million of jews.
Abortion: mother kills embryo. Embryo has no soul. Thus it's moral.

I hope you do see the difference now.

The Bible states an example "killing is evil", while morality is much more complex.

Morality places "harm" in the first place. Killing is allowed if the victim has no harm. Examples are abortion, euthanasia, ... That's where Christianity fails.

And you, being a non-believe in Christ... why in the world are you mentioning souls? In your mind they should be non-existence entirely. I thought you were "agnostic," or what have you.

A soul is in fact one's consciousness. Consciousness comes trough the brain. No brain activity simply results in no consciousness. There is clear suggestions that the brain grew from the senses in both animal evolution (from yellyfish (no brain) to man) and in thinking (I cannot think without hearing words, seeing an image,...).

THe soul is nothing but a series of events, pulses towards my brain. It's concept as well as the afterlife is myth. For these reasons I am atheistic. I never actually believed in the existance of a god.

Religion governs morality... It gives many people REASON to do what you will do with your 100$. The idea of giving to those in need, and only have the bare minimum of what you need came from... guess who... JESUS.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Jesus tells me nothing about how to get the maximum out of that 100$.

From my early stages of life I knew that religion was crap. Whenever I listened to the stupid rants for hours and hours, I was merely getting bored. I realised that philosophy, namely logic, was the only way to define the best solution within a given problem.

The problem with religion is that every religious person adopts a point of view literally without verifying its logic. One should always ask himself: "Ho, wait a minute, is this truly correct? And why?". How can a priest be moral? He's ranting on and on, while there's famine in the world. They all have very naieve views. "God says" and we must jump like dogs. Now to go on, the Bible is simply not enough to judge one morally. A book is finite, while the number of examples in real are infinite.

Other reasons are:
- the Bible contains flawed examples of morality.
Let's take the crucification of Jesus and the flood at the Arc of Noah as examples of flawed morality.
- There is a danger for misunderstanding.
I'll take the Koran as an example. In the Koran is written that one must beat his wife, but no wounds must show up. This can be interpreted false.
- The Western Church fails to define "morality" as they exclude abortion, homosexuality and euthanasia. Obviously they are not aware that mothers, old and abandoned people have feelings as well.
- Perfect morality is a dream. It's like perfectness and can never be achieved. One can only aim for the optimal result.

It's naieve to think that one can learn all knowledge of a course out of one book. If I read a mathemathics book, will I know ALL of mathemathics?
Do you agree with me that morality can be never be totally included in one book? That morality is different in each situation? That each situation is unique as well as one's complex behavior and feelings at that time?

I never believed in a deity, neither did I read the Bible (except Genesis first 5 pages). I don't even know how to pray to mother Maria. Obviously I have notion of morality.

And why did you just throw out a new definition for morality?? Before you said it was what feels good, now its FINDING THE BEST SOLUTION...

Note that language is a circle. I didn't give a new definition. You don't understand what "good" means.

First a definition of morality:
-concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
-motivation based on ideas of right and wrong

Good is a certain amount. Where is the exact limit between good and bad?

The definition of good:
-having the normally expected amount
...

Thus mentioning finding the difference between good and bad is actually finding the best solution, because one can draw a straight line from good to bad. "Good" is supposed to be the beginning of the line, while "bad" is its end.

Do you agree with me, if you say that morality is only the difference between good and bad, that you have lower norms as christian than I, an atheist?
I aim for the best solution to define morality.

If I can choose to save 10 000 lives or 100, what should I do? How must I invest my money? Show me where the Bible states that.

 

[dthmstr254]

If you know your bible and its origins Kevin, you would know that the beginnings were what the Hebrews stole from ancient Semite propaghanda against the agriculturalists. The bible is a collection of stories from a myriad of races and beliefs. A lot of it is representative. If you choose to place faith in a thing I suggest you know its roots.

if it were a collection of uninspired stories, written by (by your scenario) maybe 300-400 different people, which is wrong, only 40 people wrote the Bible. with this info, please explain away the Bible's unity. written in over 2000 years time, by 40 authors, and in three different languages, the Bible does not contradict itself.

Jesus was not crucified for "our" sins, but for his sins. He was a public figure who was quite radical for his time and executed for it. Doesn't mean he was a bad lad. He was a revolutionary, much like Luther and Socrates.

he was CONSIDERED radical. read your Bible and you can see why he was considered radical. he had no sins, so they drew up false charges against him (Pontius Pilate himself said "i find no fault in Him").

To say that we will never be able to explain everything in the universe is undermining the human ability to survive and educate itself over time. We are young as a race, but we have godlike powers to those who came before us. Would they see us as dieties if they could see us? Most likely. Should we worship something more advanced because we have not yet attained that level? Take it in context. We should not be worshipped anymore than some (by our standrads) more advanced entity.

several examples of the human race demonstrating its inability to educate itself include:
the world being flat, disproved by creationist Christians in Isaiah 40:22.
the world being held up by various animals, finally proved by scientists recently, but written in the Bible in Job 26:7

Agnostic is a belief in something but you dont know what it is. Liek a belief in nature. A soul can mean the essence of a persons being. Their are many interpretations of the word, not just a religious one. Go look up a dictionary.

agnostics still get it wrong, but at least they are looking for the truth.
your soul is what you take with you into eternity.
I am curious to know though Kevin - do you think it possible for a person not to believe in a god, lead a good life with morals and if there is a heaven enter it?[/QUOTE]
absolutely impossible and unjustifiable to believe that, because it goes against the bible, "I am the Way the Truth and the Light, no man cometh unto the Fater but by Me"

 

[kal-el]

Originally posted by DonRicardo
A soul is in fact one's consciousness. Consciousness comes trough the brain. No brain activity simply results in no consciousness. There is clear suggestions that the brain grew from the senses in both animal evolution (from yellyfish (no brain) to man) and in thinking (I cannot think without hearing words, seeing an image,...).

THe soul is nothing but a series of events, pulses towards my brain. It's concept as well as the afterlife is myth. For these reasons I am atheistic. I never actually believed in the existance of a god.

Yes, that's a rather poetic, yet naive image... an immortal soul escaping from abody after death. Where would this "soul" go if the universe is indeed infinite?

 

[Parmenion]

I never said the stories were uninspired. I spoke of the origins of the bible. The Old Testament was adopted by the Hebrew peoples in 4000 BC. Much of that testament and the stories in it are representative propaghanda used by the Semite people (Abel) in 8000 BC to encourage their people to maintain their hunter-gatherer nature and not to join the emerging argiculturalists from the fertile crescent (Cain). The Semite people found it impossible to understand why the agricultuarlists were living outside the laws of nature and were taking their fates into their own hands. They could only describe this be feeling that they must have done something horrendous to annoy the gods (forbidden fruit). The ever expanding numbers of the agriculturalists were spreading into the Semite lands and clashes of arms began. Given the Semites were being far outnumbered (the debasing references to Eve in Genises) for every one they killed of the agriculturalists they lost seven. And so he who harmed a hair on Cain's head was punished sevenfold. Cain killing Abel is representative of the Semites being massacred.

In 4000BC the Hebrews added their own stories of their peoples, there were other peoples and other races stories drawn into that testament from those early years of the emerging human civilisation. The Bible under went a new testament 2000 years ago which has been added to over the centuries.

Please quote exactly where I argued the number of authors. Please quote exactly where I said the Bible contradicts itself. If you want to attack my posts, attack their content. You are attacking statements I never made. If you feel that I implied such things - please state exactly how you drew such misguided conclusions.

He was executed for the charges brought against him. From a legal point of view he was executed for his sins. If a man in this day and age is innocent but executed, it is still considered that he is being executed for his crimes - not for his innocence.

several examples of the human race demonstrating its inability to educate itself include:
the world being flat, disproved by creationist Christians in Isaiah 40:22.
the world being held up by various animals, finally proved by scientists recently, but written in the Bible in Job 26:7

You have provedmy point. You just proved that these are examples of the human race educating itself. We no longer believe the world is flat, ergo, we are now smarter. Lets keep that trend up

Whether agnostics get it wrong or not was not the issue. I was advising Kevin what an agnostic is. You have shared your opinion without back up regarding your thoughts on them but you did not attack the content of my post.

Your belief in a soul is that you take it with you to eternity. If I have a different meaning for that word, it doesnt make my meaning or definition wrong. It simply makes it different to yours. That is what I was explaining to Kevin. Again glad you shared your view, have fun appreciating and having respect for mine as I respect yours.

So basically you state that if, hypothetically speaking, there is a heaven; then everyone who does not believe in your God is going to be hanging around outisde the Gates for eternity. Thats a LOT of people mate. What makes your way right and anotehr way wrong. And if you can answer that in an original manner which shows you can think for yourself (ie without references to books etc)...

 

[dthmstr254]

I never said the stories were uninspired. I spoke of the origins of the bible. The Old Testament was adopted by the Hebrew peoples in 4000 BC. Much of that testament and the stories in it are representative propaghanda used by the Semite people (Abel) in 8000 BC to encourage their people to maintain their hunter-gatherer nature and not to join the emerging argiculturalists from the fertile crescent (Cain). The Semite people found it impossible to understand why the agricultuarlists were living outside the laws of nature and were taking their fates into their own hands. They could only describe this be feeling that they must have done something horrendous to annoy the gods (forbidden fruit). The ever expanding numbers of the agriculturalists were spreading into the Semite lands and clashes of arms began. Given the Semites were being far outnumbered (the debasing references to Eve in Genises) for every one they killed of the agriculturalists they lost seven. And so he who harmed a hair on Cain's head was punished sevenfold. Cain killing Abel is representative of the Semites being massacred.

what proof do you have for your thoughts. if you would kindly divulge the carbon dating method they used to prove this, or is this all something compiled by a single atheist fanatic?

In 4000BC the Hebrews added their own stories of their peoples, there were other peoples and other races stories drawn into that testament from those early years of the emerging human civilisation. The Bible under went a new testament 2000 years ago which has been added to over the centuries.

the Old Testament was written in the span of 1900+ years, by 25 different authors, in the Hebrew language. there are prophecies of the exact order of the empires that would take over the Fertile Crescent written in Daniel. the chance of a prophecy that involved and descriptive ever coming true is 1:1000 at its best. and that is for each single empire, not the order. the New Testament was written in maybe 100 years at least, by fifteen different authors, in Greek and Latin. it has not been added to since maybe 150 AD. the Bible is completely unified in its message, and it doesnt contradict itself. and i have already been referred to a site of areas where statements supposedly contradict themselves within the Bible and have fully explained them on Volconvo.com. i do not wish to go through the same sites here
Please quote exactly where I argued the number of authors. Please quote exactly where I said the Bible contradicts itself. If you want to attack my posts, attack their content. You are attacking statements I never made. If you feel that I implied such things - please state exactly how you drew such misguided conclusions.

He was executed for the charges brought against him. From a legal point of view he was executed for his sins. If a man in this day and age is innocent but executed, it is still considered that he is being executed for his crimes - not for his innocence.

he was executed for the "crime" of claiming he was God. "before Abraham was, I Am." this was not a crime for him though, since He WAS God, He could make such a claim

You have provedmy point. You just proved that these are examples of the human race educating itself. We no longer believe the world is flat, ergo, we are now smarter. Lets keep that trend up

the education was through our crationists, thank you. also think of the inventor of the light bulb, he was a Christian too.

Your belief in a soul is that you take it with you to eternity. If I have a different meaning for that word, it doesnt make my meaning or definition wrong. It simply makes it different to yours. That is what I was explaining to Kevin. Again glad you shared your view, have fun appreciating and having respect for mine as I respect yours.

this theory of yours makes you a finite being, whereas min makes me a being with an eternity left to live. if you wanted to shoot me dead, and you followed up on that, then i would be in a much better place than a dead body.

So basically you state that if, hypothetically speaking, there is a heaven; then everyone who does not believe in your God is going to be hanging around outisde the Gates for eternity. Thats a LOT of people mate. What makes your way right and anotehr way wrong. And if you can answer that in an original manner which shows you can think for yourself (ie without references to books etc)...

not hanging outside the gates "mate". in Hell

 

[Parmenion]

How can one use carbon dating to verify the origins of stories? Who is this aethiest fanatic you speak of?

I am not arguing who wrote the Old Testament. I am arguing the origins of the stories contained therein. Again you make mention of contradictions - I never said anything about contradictions. Where are you getting that from?

he was executed for the "crime" of claiming he was God.

Thank you for agreeing with me. He was executed for a crime. Whether or not he committed it or had a right to commit it is beside the point. In the eyes of his peers he was guilty and as such was put to death for it. Enough said.

Who invented what and their religious beliefs are beside the point. It proves that humans are learning and continue to learn as I stated. You said "several examples of the human race demonstrating its inability to educate itself include:" - The human race has educated itself. You gave examples, now you agree with with. My work here is done

this theory of yours makes you a finite being, whereas min makes me a being with an eternity left to live. if you wanted to shoot me dead, and you followed up on that, then i would be in a much better place than a dead body.

What theory is that? I don't remember posting my theories in this forum on what I think a soul is. I stated its different to your opinion but never told you what it was. Different doesn't mean in contrast, it means different.

In conclusion you believe that every person not believing what you believe is going to hell. Thats a lot of people. Are you Baptist perhaps? Becuase in fairness your god sounds like a right bollocks to condemn so many people for not worshipping him. Curiously, does that mean that everyone who died before your religion graced this earth also went to Hell? That would infer that Heaven was empty for a very long oul time :lol:

 

[leejosepho]

leejosepho:

I know several lads who were chronic alcoholics and recovered without God's intervention ...

Before assuming we are even talking about the same dilemma, please ask those fellows whether they actually had this specific problem:

"There was a tremendous urge to cease forever. Yet we found it impossible. This is the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it - this utter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish ..." ("Alcoholics Anonymous", page 34);

"... Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.
"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves ..." (page 45).

Can I ask your comments on whether you think that a woman raped and imprenated should be allowed to abort a kid a child to save her a life of misery ...

Why are you assuming "a life of misery" there? Personally, I do not.

 

[leejosepho]

... I have no problem with ... what floats your boat ...

My problem is when people just to make others live according to their own religion - that is just not acceptable!

Agreed ... at least for as long as you do not expect me to either (silently) condone or to possibly even participate in your self-admitted naughtiness, eh?!

 

[leejosepho]

No, the fact here is that you no longer drink.

No ... in comparison to former days in which I could not *not* drink, the fact today is that I *cannot* drink -- that I could not take a drink even if I would.

Your opinion is that God helped you do it.

No, and on two counts:
1) I am sharing actual facts, not mere opinions;
2) You must have missed what I had said: He now *does for me* -- no mere "help" has been mentioned -- what *I could never do* for myself.

But unless you caught on camera God whispering in your ear every night, you will never have evidence for that.

If that is all it would take for you to believe what I am sharing, I will gladly have a few pictures taken ...
... but of course, a sleeping me is all you would see unless you can imagine anyone other than my wife actually whispering in my ear.

Just because a group of people believe the same thing does not make it fact ...

Agreed, and most certainly. However, I had mentioned the actual facts of “Hebrew people” and their “Sinai experience”, and not any mere belief.

Well, I don't believe [a fetus is] a human being.

What else could it possibly be?! Nothing but *human* beings ever emerge from human wombs!

Who's supposed to be deciding [right and wrong] then?

Fact: The One who created us already has.

 

[Parmenion]

lee - apparently they had what one might refer to as willpower. If you didn't have that without something else then you are a very weak creature indeed.

I would imagine that many women would disagree with you. And the fact remains that in abortion, men should not have a say in the matter. We are not the ones who ultimately have to live with the consequences. Only a person who condones rape would suggest what you suggested.

 

[DonRicardo]

this theory of yours makes you a finite being, whereas min makes me a being with an eternity left to live. if you wanted to shoot me dead, and you followed up on that, then i would be in a much better place than a dead body.

No. Atheism states that there is no afterlife. Death is often seen - so do I - as a form of unconsciousness.

I, as an atheist, don't have to be dead forever either. Time can be a circle, which means that every event reoccurs. However, I think most likely not. Another way might be that one day a man with the same cerebrum might be born, which would mean I would have another form of consciousness. It's quite ridiculous to believe even that eternal life is excluded. Scientists are currently investigating stem cell technology, which allows to renew body cells. This might be a gate to the eternal life. If that doesn't work, one can always do a "clone job".

However, I do not expect the eternal life.

what proof do you have for your thoughts. if you would kindly divulge the carbon dating method they used to prove this, or is this all something compiled by a single atheist fanatic?

...
not hanging outside the gates "mate". in Hell

Here you make a contradiction in your own meaning. You demand proof, then you pose a statement without proof. There is simply no proof to support such statement. Note that gossip and written documents are no proof. Observations are.

Originally Posted by Parmenion
Can I ask your comments on whether you think that a woman raped and imprenated should be allowed to abort a kid a child to save her a life of misery ...

Why are you assuming "a life of misery" there? Personally, I do not.

Here you are evading the question. Let's suppose there is a "life of misery".

 

[DonRicardo]

No ... in comparison to former days in which I could not *not* drink, the fact today is that I *cannot* drink -- that I could not take a drink even if I would.



No, and on two counts:
1) I am sharing actual facts, not mere opinions;
2) You must have missed what I had said: He now *does for me* -- no mere "help" has been mentioned -- what *I could never do* for myself.

If that is all it would take for you to believe what I am sharing, I will gladly have a few pictures taken ...
... but of course, a sleeping me is all you would see unless you can imagine anyone other than my wife actually whispering in my ear.

Now you use again gossip, just like the Bible, as evidence. Unfortunately only observations are evidence. In a court a suspect isn't judged by gossip alone. That's ridiculous.

Did you also know that most "supernatural" visions and events are nothing but psychological imaginations? Psychologists claim that they occur at emotional instable moments. I had once one where I felt an invisible absence. Yet, I deny its existence.

Agreed, and most certainly. However, I had mentioned the actual facts of “Hebrew people” and their “Sinai experience”, and not any mere belief.

That is no proof. Documents can be copied. Note that artists such as musicians base their works upon others. They get inspiration from them.

What else could it possibly be?! Nothing but *human* beings ever emerge from human wombs!

The question is not "Is it human?". The question is "Is it an animal?".

If abortion happens in the early stages, it is moral. I have discovered a very interesting article summarizing different theories about abortion.

I mainly agree with the sentience philosophy.
http://www.provida.es/pensamiento/Publicaciones/Robert_Evans.htm

Strong has defined sentience as "the capacity for feeling or perceiving."[17] Sumner maintains that moral standing and, hence, a right to life, is conferred contemporaneously with the ability to perceive pain.

There is no clear evidence, when sentience arrives, but it is tought to be at the later fetus stages. Do you agree with me when I say that abortion on an embryo is moral?

Fact: The One who created us already has.

Hence, he, who allowed creation and evolution of evil, cannot be moral, if he exists off course.

Man cannot choose. Choice would be supernatural.
Every motion of a particle in nature causes another motion. Every action causes a reaction. Even my doubt exists by a number of events. "Free will" is a naieve concept. We are what we have been through.

Any supernatural being that created us - even if it is indirectly - is responsible for every motion that occurs, hence evil as well. If he is allmighty, why does he not maintain his creations?