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Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

128shot

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I never understood this, why is there such a burning desire for athiests to tell me "there is no good" and all that yak? why?
 
Y

y not peace?

im not athiest but i know plenty of them. Most are friends. But anyways, they say "there is no good" because they look at the history of all relgions and see no good in them. They also simply say that they dont need religion in their lives.
 

Kelzie

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I'm an agnostic, and I would say one of the reasons is that people use religion in argument like it's fact, when it's not. Example:

"Abortion's wrong cause God says it is"

"Gay people are going to hell cause God says they are."

"Pre-marital sex means you're a slut because God says so."

It's infuriating. That's usually when I whip out the "there's no proof for God" card.
 

KevinWan

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Kelzie said:
I'm an agnostic, and I would say one of the reasons is that people use religion in argument like it's fact, when it's not. Example:

"Abortion's wrong cause God says it is"

"Gay people are going to hell cause God says they are."

"Pre-marital sex means you're a slut because God says so."

It's infuriating. That's usually when I whip out the "there's no proof for God" card.
...There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God?? I think that you, as an "agnostic," would be more likely to understand the meaning of God in an argument. God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. "Its just out right wrong," is often the argument people are trying to make when they use God as proof. There is proof that Western civilization despises civil murder, abortion, stealing etc. Abiding by the moral sense of our civilization is the point of God in such arguments.
 

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

KevinWan said:
...There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God?? I think that you, as an "agnostic," would be more likely to understand the meaning of God in an argument. God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. "Its just out right wrong," is often the argument people are trying to make when they use God as proof. There is proof that Western civilization despises civil murder, abortion, stealing etc. Abiding by the moral sense of our civilization is the point of God in such arguments.
Of course it cannot be proven that something does not exist. The burden falls on people to prove that it does. That is not possible with gods.
 

Kelzie

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KevinWan said:
...There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God?? I think that you, as an "agnostic," would be more likely to understand the meaning of God in an argument. God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. "Its just out right wrong," is often the argument people are trying to make when they use God as proof. There is proof that Western civilization despises civil murder, abortion, stealing etc. Abiding by the moral sense of our civilization is the point of God in such arguments.
"Something is bad because I think so" is not a valid argument. Which is basically what people are doing when they bring God into a debate. This is not proof, it is an opinion, something you should form your argument around, but then back it up with facts.
 
Y

y not peace?

your forgeting the Jesus aspect...lol....HE FORGAVE OUR SINS.

its not like u cant be gay and be christian.....


and teh abortion issue...why cant you have an adoption.
 

Kelzie

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y not peace? said:
your forgeting the Jesus aspect...lol....HE FORGAVE OUR SINS.

its not like u cant be gay and be christian.....


and teh abortion issue...why cant you have an adoption.
According to you. According to me, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING. He died just like the rest of us will.

Not according to the bible you can't. Oh no wait, I'm sorry. You can be gay, you just can't act on it. Very big hearted of your God, I have to say. Making somebody love someone of the same sex, and then condemning them to burn in hell if they act on in.

Knock yourself out. Just don't tell me or other women what to do. Some of us don't want to go through a pregnancy for a bunch of cells.
 

leejosepho

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y not peace? said:
im not athiest but i know plenty of them. Most are friends. But anyways, they say "there is no good" because they look at the history of all relgions and see no good in them ...
My own response to that is usually to agree with the “history of religions” part, and to then point out that “religions” come merely from men, and not from “God”.

Kelzie said:
I'm an agnostic, and I would say one of the reasons is that people use religion in argument like it's fact, when it's not. Example:

"Abortion's wrong cause God says it is"

"Gay people are going to hell cause God says they are."

"Pre-marital sex means you're a slut because God says so."

It's infuriating. That's usually when I whip out the "there's no proof for God" card.
Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.

alex said:
Of course it cannot be proven that something does not exist. The burden falls on people to prove that it does ...
Whoa! Why is that? To me, that is quite illogical and void of intellectual honesty. If it cannot be proven that something does *not* exist, then how could it be proven (or how could someone sanely/rightly/fairly demand it be proven) something does?

Kelzie said:
"Something is bad because I think so" is not a valid argument ...
Agreed ...

Kelzie said:
Which is basically what people are doing when they bring God into a debate.
To me, that would be commendable, as they are referencing a higher authority to decide the matter in the first place.

Kelzie said:
This is not proof, it is an opinion ...
Actually, it is neither. Rather, it is a simple report.

Kelzie said:
... something you should form your argument around, but then back it up with facts.
With opinion and even “God” aside, what facts would be required to convince people that abortion and deviant sex are wrong?

Or, if preferred: What facts might anyone have to convince others otherwise?
 
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Kelzie

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leejosepho said:
Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.
Actually it does. If you can not prove something, it is not a fact. It is your opinion that God exists. Therefore, any rules that you follow from this God are based on your opinion that he exists, and as such, are not facts.

To me, that would be commendable, as they are referencing a higher authority to decide the matter in the first place.
See above.

leejosepho said:
With opinion and even “God” aside, what facts would be required to convince people that abortion and deviant sex are wrong?

Or, if preferred: What facts might anyone have to convince others otherwise?
Abortion: I would need it to be proven that fetus can live outside the body. Once that happens, I will agree that abortion is wrong.

Deviant sexual behavior: I assume you are talking about homosexuality here. As long as it is an act between two consenting adults that does no damage to each other, I have no problem with it.
 

YamiB.

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Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Kelzie said:
According to you. According to me, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING. He died just like the rest of us will.

Not according to the bible you can't. Oh no wait, I'm sorry. You can be gay, you just can't act on it. Very big hearted of your God, I have to say. Making somebody love someone of the same sex, and then condemning them to burn in hell if they act on in.

Knock yourself out. Just don't tell me or other women what to do. Some of us don't want to go through a pregnancy for a bunch of cells.
I had been interpreted by some that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.
 

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Kelzie said:
According to you. According to me, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING. He died just like the rest of us will.

Not according to the bible you can't. Oh no wait, I'm sorry. You can be gay, you just can't act on it. Very big hearted of your God, I have to say. Making somebody love someone of the same sex, and then condemning them to burn in hell if they act on in.

Knock yourself out. Just don't tell me or other women what to do. Some of us don't want to go through a pregnancy for a bunch of cells.
According the the vast majority of Western civilized beings... Jesus sets our standards for our morality and ethics, whether you're Christian or not. I doubt you accept stealing, murder or adultery... Why not?? Maybe because Jesus taught these things through the Ten Commanments, which inturn became the cornerstone of Western civilization.

Morality is indeed a legitimate argument in a debate. We have an obligation to better our society through instating a moral way of life. Abortion is wrong because it is barbaric and evil... its that simple. Make it illegal.
 

Parmenion

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I think this matter is getting away from the original post. I think its generalising to say that one believes that aethiests or other non-religious people have a problem with religion or God. A generalisation is merely a supposition based on no hard statistical facts, but personal experience.

kevinwan:

1) You think that morality or ethical natures didn't exist prior to the time of jesus?

2) Please note that the Ten Commandents were given to Moses who was in existence a long time before the coming of jesus. Please get your timelines right.

3) I think to state that it has become the cornerstone of Western civilisations is very naive. The cornerstone of civilisation is society. The most basic element of society is the family unit and the treatment of ones kinsmen therein. Morality and ethics are derived not from religious iconology but from basic concepts in existence far longer that religions have been. 30,000 years ago there is evidence that the cavemen helped members of their tribes who were injured in hunting and nursing them back to health for the good of the tribe until they could hunt again. Religion didn't come into play until 20,000 years after this fact.

4) You state that abortion is wrong because it is wrong and evil. Being a man myself, i can even understand that if a woman was raped and impregnated as a result of rape, she would have to have that child and be reminded daily for the rest of her life that horrendous experience by seeing that child according to your thinking. personally I find that notion barabaric and evil to imprison an innocent into a life not of her choosing due to circumstances outisde of her control.

Please think through spurious and narrow comments before simply firing them off.
 

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128shot said:
I never understood this, why is there such a burning desire for athiests to tell me "there is no good" and all that yak? why?
1. Religion is based upon no observations. There are far much more dis-suggesting arguments than there are arguments that support the existence of a deity.

2. Religion is not to be confused with morality. Morality is very complex and deep to analyse. The Bible has a naieve view of morality.

3. Prayer is useless. Act and chance will come.

KevinWan said:
Jesus sets our standards for our morality and ethics, whether you're Christian or not.
Obviously an example of (2.); that is a naieve Biblistic view of morality.

Also, a lack of language. Seek up the definition of "religion" for me, please.

Most people view morality as not causing harm, but is morality not to "help" as well? You are chatting at this forum right now, while children are dying of famine. How can we be moral? Explain, please.

KevinWan said:
There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God??
Well, there is no proof that there are no pink elephants blowing soap bells outside the bounds of our universe either. That is a very simplistic and illogical view.

Consider a court as an example.
A suspect is being judged based upon EVIDENCE (alibi, etc.), no gossip, hearsay.

y not peace? said:
your forgeting the Jesus aspect...lol....HE FORGAVE OUR SINS.
A false assumption. First prove he existed.

leejosepho said:
Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.
Please tell me "WHY" it is wrong. Because God tells it is actually BS. I'm sorry for that. If I say something, would you believe me blindly. Again, my excuse, but I think that's very childlike. Only a child would believe what is told him blindly.

Your inability ot prove his existance does change the fact. Because if he doesn't exist, he can't have told that abortion is wrong.

Second, abortion is not wrong at all. Please, think any further and don't accept knowledge blindly.

"Is it wrong to kill?"

It depends. If I place a gun against the head of a sleeping man, I caused him no harm. This way I can make abortion, because the embryo has no consciousness, no soul and is not alive (yet).

Don't you think it is better to make an abortion, if you can't give your child a happy life? Considering that death is no form of consciousness, your child won't feel any pain at all.

"Deviant sex?"

Why not? Let's make everybody happy in this world. THAT IS morality.

---------
Conclusion
Remember every statement that has no observation or logical suggestion supporting it, is nothing but an opinion. "God says...", "Jesus did...", are nothing but gossip, statements read out of a by humans written book. If I write a book tomorrow, I can tell that a giant teddy bear created the universe.
 

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Parmenion said:
I think this matter is getting away from the original post. I think its generalising to say that one believes that aethiests or other non-religious people have a problem with religion or God. A generalisation is merely a supposition based on no hard statistical facts, but personal experience.

kevinwan:

1) You think that morality or ethical natures didn't exist prior to the time of jesus?

2) Please note that the Ten Commandents were given to Moses who was in existence a long time before the coming of jesus. Please get your timelines right.

3) I think to state that it has become the cornerstone of Western civilisations is very naive. The cornerstone of civilisation is society. The most basic element of society is the family unit and the treatment of ones kinsmen therein. Morality and ethics are derived not from religious iconology but from basic concepts in existence far longer that religions have been. 30,000 years ago there is evidence that the cavemen helped members of their tribes who were injured in hunting and nursing them back to health for the good of the tribe until they could hunt again. Religion didn't come into play until 20,000 years after this fact.

4) You state that abortion is wrong because it is wrong and evil. Being a man myself, i can even understand that if a woman was raped and impregnated as a result of rape, she would have to have that child and be reminded daily for the rest of her life that horrendous experience by seeing that child according to your thinking. personally I find that notion barabaric and evil to imprison an innocent into a life not of her choosing due to circumstances outisde of her control.

Please think through spurious and narrow comments before simply firing them off.
Morality and ethics did exist in the time before Jesus, however Jesus greatly tranformed those values. His influence in Europe and across the world is expansive. He became the icon for values, and symbol of morality.

I don't think it is naive to state that Christianity is the basis for Western civilization... because that is the truth. Compare West to East... the primary difference is Christ. Western values are Judeo-Chrisian values, and Eastern values are Buddhist, Hindu, and Islamic, primarily. There are some values that are universal, but not all are universal. The cavemen may have understood some of these values, but not all. The values the cavemen did know have become the essence of Christianity. Jesus is now the symbol in the West for many of these values.

Abortion is wrong... society and civilization teaches us that two wrongs do not make a right. However, I would accept abortion only under the extreme circumstances of rape and/or the endangerment of the mother's life. Using abortion just because it felt good is wrong. That does not abide by our civilization's moral code.
 

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Kelzie said:
If you can not prove something, it is not a fact.
Not so, and I can prove that! To wit: I have permanently recovered from chronic alcoholism, and that is only because "God" has done for me what I could never do for myself.

Is it possible for me to prove that to you? No, not unless you are at least willing to believe the only possible conclusion: "God" exists.

Kelzie said:
It is your opinion that God exists. Therefore, any rules that you follow from this God are based on your opinion that he exists, and as such, are not facts.
YHWH's existence is *not* my opinion, it is an observable fact that can be known by anyone willing to take a look at either the Hebrew people and their Sinai experience ... or even possibly at my personal recovery from chronic alcoholism. And today, my following of certain "rules" is in keeping with those facts even though I cannot make anyone else believe the so-obvious existence of "God".

Kelzie said:
Abortion: I would need it to be proven that fetus can live outside the body. Once that happens, I will agree that abortion is wrong.
What would that have to do with anything? The fact that a human being can eventually "live outside the womb" should be sufficient for convincing anyone that an individual should not have been murdered during the time s/he could not.

Kelzie said:
Deviant sexual behavior: I assume you are talking about homosexuality here. As long as it is an act between two consenting adults that does no damage to each other, I have no problem with it.
... and I have no problem with whether or not you have a problem with that. However, the issue was not left for either of us to decide.
 

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As an atheist I have no problem with the idea of God, or Jesus, or the Bible. If that's what floats your boat, good for you.

My problem is when people just to make others live according to their own religion - that is just not acceptable!

Think homosexual sex is wrong? Fine - don't have homosexual sex.

Think abortion is wrong? Fine - don't have an abortion, or don't father an inwanted child (and if you are Jamesrage don't be a pregnant man).

Leave the rest of us to make our own decisions. Simple. Everybody happy. :roll:
 

Kelzie

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Not so, and I can prove that! To wit: I have permanently recovered from chronic alcoholism, and that is only because "God" has done for me what I could never do for myself.

Is it possible for me to prove that to you? No, not unless you are at least willing to believe the only possible conclusion: "God" exists.
No, the fact here is that you no longer drink. Your opinion is that God helped you do it. But unless you caught on camera God whispering in your ear every night, you will never have evidence for that.

YHWH's existence is *not* my opinion, it is an observable fact that can be known by anyone willing to take a look at either the Hebrew people and their Sinai experience ... or even possibly at my personal recovery from chronic alcoholism. And today, my following of certain "rules" is in keeping with those facts even though I cannot make anyone else believe the so-obvious existence of "God".
Just because a group of people believe the same thing does not make it fact. The world is round you know.

What would that have to do with anything? The fact that a human being can eventually "live outside the womb" should be sufficient for convincing anyone that an individual should not have been murdered during the time s/he could not.
Well, I don't believe it's a human being.

... and I have no problem with whether or not you have a problem with that. However, the issue was not left for either of us to decide.
Who's supposed to be deciding it then?
 

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Why is christianity always under fire....
 

Kelzie

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128shot said:
Why is christianity always under fire....
Maybe because they put themselves there? Unless you think I forced a bunch of Christians to respond to this thread at gunpoint?
 

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KevinWan said:
Morality and ethics did exist in the time before Jesus, however Jesus greatly tranformed those values. His influence in Europe and across the world is expansive. He became the icon for values, and symbol of morality.
All right. So, I'll kill my younger brother and crucify him to get rid of all the sins in the world.

KevinWan said:
I don't think it is naive to state that Christianity is the basis for Western civilization... because that is the truth.
Ridiculous assumption. Do you have a source that confirms what you're saying?

KevinWan said:
Compare West to East... the primary difference is Christ.
The base for the western civilization? What are you talking about? Everyone knows the main difference is our higher advanced technology and economy. It is certainly a fact that uneducated countries have more believers.

Religion makes people naieve. Instead of basing themselves on their "earthish" life, they believe they will have better lives in the afterlife.

KevinWan said:
The cavemen may have understood some of these values, but not all. The values the cavemen did know have become the essence of Christianity. Jesus is now the symbol in the West for many of these values.
Cavemen made paintings at the wall to influence their hunt.

Religion grew out of superstition, when man feared to fail and he feared for natural phenomenons such as violent storms at sea. He also used religion ininitially to describe natural phenomonenons, such as the appearance of planets at the top of the sky.

Once more: Religion has nothing to do with morality.

The definition of religion can be simply described:
- a belief in the existence of a deity or god
- a belief in a supernatural force

KevinWan said:
Abortion is wrong... society and civilization teaches us that two wrongs do not make a right. However, I would accept abortion only under the extreme circumstances of rape and/or the endangerment of the mother's life. Using abortion just because it felt good is wrong. That does not abide by our civilization's moral code.
I'm glad you read past my entire post.

Who are you to claim what is wrong and right? You say "Using abortion just because it felt good is wrong."; that's wrong. Morality is the difference between good and bad. If the mother feels better after abortion, it's moral. An embryo has no soul, as I'd say.

And don't forget religion is yet another reason for discrimination ...
 
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V.I. Lenin

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Why is christianity always under fire....
Because Christians always put other things under fire in the name of Chirst and "Christian Values".
 

128shot

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I always found it funny that christianity is the big religion for athiests to target. I most certainly wouldn't put myself there,

but its an interesting thought, that you guys never run amock on Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism (which is one of the most peaceful religions in existance IMO) list goes on...
 

V.I. Lenin

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128shot said:
I always found it funny that christianity is the big religion for athiests to target. I most certainly wouldn't put myself there,

but its an interesting thought, that you guys never run amock on Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism (which is one of the most peaceful religions in existance IMO) list goes on...
When Hindus and Jews start trying to manipulate the government and the heart strings of the American public to further their own religious beliefs and religious dominance then I'll run "amock" on them.
 

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You state compare the West to the East. Many of the East believe in Confucianism as a primary source of morality. He is not a religious icon but taught morality many years before jesus.

The values of the caveman were the base premise for unity and society. What has built from there may have had religious influence on many fronts but I think most educated peoples in this day and age would agree that morality is a product of the relaisation of ourselves as a species and how we must intereract with one another. No doubt religion has had a part to play. I will not deny that. But I do not think that stating it is the primary source for morality is either justifiable or correct. Of course that is a personal opinion.

So despite abortion being evil and wrong you think its okay in some circumstances - if that is the case then why not other not as drastic but equally as dismal circumstances?
 
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