Kelzie said:I'm an agnostic, and I would say one of the reasons is that people use religion in argument like it's fact, when it's not. Example:
"Abortion's wrong cause God says it is"
"Gay people are going to hell cause God says they are."
"Pre-marital sex means you're a slut because God says so."
It's infuriating. That's usually when I whip out the "there's no proof for God" card.
KevinWan said:...There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God?? I think that you, as an "agnostic," would be more likely to understand the meaning of God in an argument. God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. "Its just out right wrong," is often the argument people are trying to make when they use God as proof. There is proof that Western civilization despises civil murder, abortion, stealing etc. Abiding by the moral sense of our civilization is the point of God in such arguments.
KevinWan said:...There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God?? I think that you, as an "agnostic," would be more likely to understand the meaning of God in an argument. God is often just a refection of moral and ethic code, especially on issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. "Its just out right wrong," is often the argument people are trying to make when they use God as proof. There is proof that Western civilization despises civil murder, abortion, stealing etc. Abiding by the moral sense of our civilization is the point of God in such arguments.
y not peace? said:your forgeting the Jesus aspect...lol....HE FORGAVE OUR SINS.
its not like u cant be gay and be christian.....
and teh abortion issue...why cant you have an adoption.
y not peace? said:im not athiest but i know plenty of them. Most are friends. But anyways, they say "there is no good" because they look at the history of all relgions and see no good in them ...
Kelzie said:I'm an agnostic, and I would say one of the reasons is that people use religion in argument like it's fact, when it's not. Example:
"Abortion's wrong cause God says it is"
"Gay people are going to hell cause God says they are."
"Pre-marital sex means you're a slut because God says so."
It's infuriating. That's usually when I whip out the "there's no proof for God" card.
alex said:Of course it cannot be proven that something does not exist. The burden falls on people to prove that it does ...
Kelzie said:"Something is bad because I think so" is not a valid argument ...
Kelzie said:Which is basically what people are doing when they bring God into a debate.
Kelzie said:This is not proof, it is an opinion ...
Kelzie said:... something you should form your argument around, but then back it up with facts.
leejosepho said:Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.
To me, that would be commendable, as they are referencing a higher authority to decide the matter in the first place.
leejosepho said:With opinion and even “God” aside, what facts would be required to convince people that abortion and deviant sex are wrong?
Or, if preferred: What facts might anyone have to convince others otherwise?
Kelzie said:According to you. According to me, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING. He died just like the rest of us will.
Not according to the bible you can't. Oh no wait, I'm sorry. You can be gay, you just can't act on it. Very big hearted of your God, I have to say. Making somebody love someone of the same sex, and then condemning them to burn in hell if they act on in.
Knock yourself out. Just don't tell me or other women what to do. Some of us don't want to go through a pregnancy for a bunch of cells.
Kelzie said:According to you. According to me, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING. He died just like the rest of us will.
Not according to the bible you can't. Oh no wait, I'm sorry. You can be gay, you just can't act on it. Very big hearted of your God, I have to say. Making somebody love someone of the same sex, and then condemning them to burn in hell if they act on in.
Knock yourself out. Just don't tell me or other women what to do. Some of us don't want to go through a pregnancy for a bunch of cells.
128shot said:I never understood this, why is there such a burning desire for athiests to tell me "there is no good" and all that yak? why?
KevinWan said:Jesus sets our standards for our morality and ethics, whether you're Christian or not.
KevinWan said:There may be no proof for God, but is there significant proof that there is no God??
y not peace? said:your forgeting the Jesus aspect...lol....HE FORGAVE OUR SINS.
leejosepho said:Abortion and deviant sex are wrong because “God” (at least indirectly) says so, and my inability to prove His existence does not alter those facts.
Parmenion said:I think this matter is getting away from the original post. I think its generalising to say that one believes that aethiests or other non-religious people have a problem with religion or God. A generalisation is merely a supposition based on no hard statistical facts, but personal experience.
kevinwan:
1) You think that morality or ethical natures didn't exist prior to the time of jesus?
2) Please note that the Ten Commandents were given to Moses who was in existence a long time before the coming of jesus. Please get your timelines right.
3) I think to state that it has become the cornerstone of Western civilisations is very naive. The cornerstone of civilisation is society. The most basic element of society is the family unit and the treatment of ones kinsmen therein. Morality and ethics are derived not from religious iconology but from basic concepts in existence far longer that religions have been. 30,000 years ago there is evidence that the cavemen helped members of their tribes who were injured in hunting and nursing them back to health for the good of the tribe until they could hunt again. Religion didn't come into play until 20,000 years after this fact.
4) You state that abortion is wrong because it is wrong and evil. Being a man myself, i can even understand that if a woman was raped and impregnated as a result of rape, she would have to have that child and be reminded daily for the rest of her life that horrendous experience by seeing that child according to your thinking. personally I find that notion barabaric and evil to imprison an innocent into a life not of her choosing due to circumstances outisde of her control.
Please think through spurious and narrow comments before simply firing them off.
Kelzie said:If you can not prove something, it is not a fact.
Kelzie said:It is your opinion that God exists. Therefore, any rules that you follow from this God are based on your opinion that he exists, and as such, are not facts.
Kelzie said:Abortion: I would need it to be proven that fetus can live outside the body. Once that happens, I will agree that abortion is wrong.
Kelzie said:Deviant sexual behavior: I assume you are talking about homosexuality here. As long as it is an act between two consenting adults that does no damage to each other, I have no problem with it.
Not so, and I can prove that! To wit: I have permanently recovered from chronic alcoholism, and that is only because "God" has done for me what I could never do for myself.
Is it possible for me to prove that to you? No, not unless you are at least willing to believe the only possible conclusion: "God" exists.
YHWH's existence is *not* my opinion, it is an observable fact that can be known by anyone willing to take a look at either the Hebrew people and their Sinai experience ... or even possibly at my personal recovery from chronic alcoholism. And today, my following of certain "rules" is in keeping with those facts even though I cannot make anyone else believe the so-obvious existence of "God".
What would that have to do with anything? The fact that a human being can eventually "live outside the womb" should be sufficient for convincing anyone that an individual should not have been murdered during the time s/he could not.
... and I have no problem with whether or not you have a problem with that. However, the issue was not left for either of us to decide.
128shot said:Why is christianity always under fire....
KevinWan said:Morality and ethics did exist in the time before Jesus, however Jesus greatly tranformed those values. His influence in Europe and across the world is expansive. He became the icon for values, and symbol of morality.
KevinWan said:I don't think it is naive to state that Christianity is the basis for Western civilization... because that is the truth.
KevinWan said:Compare West to East... the primary difference is Christ.
KevinWan said:The cavemen may have understood some of these values, but not all. The values the cavemen did know have become the essence of Christianity. Jesus is now the symbol in the West for many of these values.
KevinWan said:Abortion is wrong... society and civilization teaches us that two wrongs do not make a right. However, I would accept abortion only under the extreme circumstances of rape and/or the endangerment of the mother's life. Using abortion just because it felt good is wrong. That does not abide by our civilization's moral code.
Why is christianity always under fire....
128shot said:I always found it funny that christianity is the big religion for athiests to target. I most certainly wouldn't put myself there,
but its an interesting thought, that you guys never run amock on Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism (which is one of the most peaceful religions in existance IMO) list goes on...
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