Why Democrats Are Not Supporting Israel

[jaypatriot]

Israel is hardly a “shining light” of anything. It is run by a wanted war criminal who has murdered more innocent civilians in a year than Hamas has in its entire existence.

Israel’s fervent belief that it “has” to steal other people’s land to “survive” is likewise not a “shining light” in any way, shape or form.

Nice mantra.
Now if you could reduce that to a catchy bumper sticker you could win the admiration of lots of mindless anti-Semitic university students and faculty who are eager to get back to work protesting against Israel and favoring a two-state solution to the Palestinian problem.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nice mantra.
Now if you could reduce that to a catchy bumper sticker you could win the admiration of lots of mindless anti-Semitic university students and faculty who are eager to get back to work protesting against Israel and favoring a two-state solution to the Palestinian problem.

Israel doesn’t want a two state solution, as its actions have made quite clear.

America was unable to protect apartheid South Africa indefinitely, and Israel is well on its way down the same path.

 

[cpwill]

Literally is not a war.

Literally is. Welcome to modern urban combat. It sucks less than ancient urban combat did, but it still sucks.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Ah. Still insisting that the intelligence communities of Canada, the UK, the US, and France are all part of a giant conspiracy to reach conclusions you find inconvenient, or that there was no large scale sexual violence by HAMAS, Surrealistik?

There wasn't. At least, there's no proof, and Israel has not complied with any independent investigations. A lack of proof isn't proof. Pretty much the entire case fell apart due to the wildly inconsistent or blatantly false accounts of what happened.

And it would make no sense for there to be widescale sexual assault, since their main goal was to acquire hostages to use as leverage.

Whether or not there was sexual assault is a different question. It certainly wasn't organized or used as a weapon in the conflict.

Unlike what the IDF engages in.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Literally is. Welcome to modern urban combat. It sucks less than ancient urban combat did, but it still sucks.

Literally isn't when 99.99999% of the causalities / deaths are on one side, and 70-90% of those causalities are civilians. A war is between comparable parties, even if one side has an advantage. And it would require that one side is not occupying the other, with total control over their resources.

Hamas is a militant insurgency against an occupation. Israel is the occupying force. That's not a war.

 

[The Brad Dad]

Literally is. Welcome to modern urban combat. It sucks less than ancient urban combat did, but it still sucks.

Meet the new genocide, same as the old genocide.

 

[cpwill]

Literally isn't when 99.99999% of the causalities / deaths are on one side, and 70-90% of those causalities are civilians.

1. That is not the definition of genocide. "Genocide" is not "a one sided battle", nor is it "a one sided battle in which many civilians die".

2. As it so happens, that is also not the math.

A war is between comparable parties

A war CAN be between comparable parties. Plenty of wars have not been.

even if one side has an advantage. And it would require that one side is not occupying the other, with total control over their resources.

"Occupation" is ALSO not "Genocide". For example, the Allies did not commit Genocide against Germany when they A) fought a war on which many civilians were killed, and B) then occupied and ruled Germany between them, nor did the North commit Genocide against the South when it occupied the rebellious states following the Civil War.

Hamas is a militant insurgency against an occupation. Israel is the occupying force. That's not a war.

This is also incorrect, as both insurgency and counterinsurgency are forms of warfare.


...have ya'll really been using genocide as a synonym for "war that doesn't seem fair or nice to me"?

There wasn't. At least, there's no proof, and Israel has not complied with any independent investigations. A lack of proof isn't proof. Pretty much the entire case fell apart due to the wildly inconsistent or blatantly false accounts of what happened....

Whether or not there was sexual assault is a different question. It certainly wasn't organized or used as a weapon in the conflict.

.... that is not correct, however: if you were shown that; would you be able to accept that evidence, or are you so bought into the need to minimize HAMAS abuses, that you are unable to acknowledge it?

 

[cpwill]

Meet the new genocide, same as the old genocide.

No. Urban combat is also not a synonym for "Genocide".

 

[The Brad Dad]

No. Urban combat is also not a synonym for "Genocide".

Correct.

 

[Real blank]

It's hard to explain why people want to defend those who would hate them if they knew them.

 

[The Brad Dad]

It's hard to explain why people want to defend those who would hate them if they knew them.

It’s even harder to explain to people that morals shouldn’t be conditional.

 

[Real blank]

It’s even harder to explain to people that morals shouldn’t be conditional.

I would imagine so, would you put your family in danger for these morals?

 

[The Brad Dad]

I would imagine so, would you put your family in danger for these morals?

Why would they be in danger?

 

[Real blank]

Why would they be in danger?

By definition if you support people who hate you that is the danger

 

[Logophile]

By definition if you support people who hate you

This is ridiculous. Who EXACTLY are you referring to??

 

[Real blank]

This is ridiculous. Who EXACTLY are you referring to??

No, stands on its own. Do you support people who hate you ?

 

[Dans La Lune]

1. That is not the definition of genocide. "Genocide" is not "a one sided battle", nor is it "a one sided battle in which many civilians die".

You were saying it's war. It's closer to genocide than war, by a country mile.

2. As it so happens, that is also not the math.

What's the math? I'm sure I'm not far off.

A war CAN be between comparable parties. Plenty of wars have not been.

Just like a fight can technically be between a 98 year old granny and a mugger.

"Occupation" is ALSO not "Genocide".

But it is occupation. I never said occupation = genocide.

For example, the Allies did not commit Genocide against Germany when they A) fought a war on which many civilians were killed, and B) then occupied and ruled Germany between them, nor did the North commit Genocide against the South when it occupied the rebellious states following the Civil War.

They did commit war crimes, though, right? That was the point of establishing international law post-WW2.

This is also incorrect, as both insurgency and counterinsurgency are forms of warfare.

Technically you can call it squabble. Lets use more accurate terms to describe what's going on.

...have ya'll really been using genocide as a synonym for "war that doesn't seem fair or nice to me"?

Genocide has a very clear definition. What is it?

.... that is not correct, however: if you were shown that; would you be able to accept that evidence, or are you so bought into the need to minimize HAMAS abuses, that you are unable to acknowledge it?

I've been waiting for credible evidence since the allegations were made. Also, are you aware that there is more evidence of Israeli rape of Palestinians than the reverse?

 

[Dans La Lune]

The truth is that @cpwill knows what is going on in Gaza and now the West Bank, he has no defense for the moral bankruptcy of his position, and he knows that history will not remember those who supported this genocide favorably. He also knows that you can draw a straight line from this genocide to the modus operandi of Zionism. Zionism cannot exist without mass violence. This was clear to Zionists at the time of Israel's origin. It was clear to Jewish critics of Zionism who refused to take part in the project.

It's over. People will never look at Israel the same way again. No one can feign ignorance at this point.

 

[rahl]

Hamas probably shouldn’t have attacked Israel on October 7th. They are in the find out stage now.

 

[Felis Leo]

Hamas probably shouldn’t have attacked Israel on October 7th. They are in the find out stage now.

All the people who carried out/ordered the October 7th attacks are dead. So who is the "they" here, rahl? Ten year-olds lining up for food being used as target practice by the IDF?

 

[rahl]

Who is the "they" here, rahl?

Hamas

Ten year-olds lining up for food being used as target practice by the IDF?

No. Hamas. That hamas is hiding behind civilian human shields isn’t Israel’s fault.

 

[cpwill]

You were saying it's war. It's closer to genocide than war, by a country mile.

That is not correct, but, from the rest of your post, respectfully, it seems you are not terribly familiar with either.

What's the math? I'm sure I'm not far off.

You are indeed off (though you were trying to exaggerate for rhetorical impact, I think; mostly it had the effect of reinforcing the same sense that you were being driven by emotion), however, again, it is irrelevant because the definition of "Genocide" is not "A war in which one side suffers far more casualties than the other".

For example, in the 1991 Gulf War, the US suffered 148 KIA, while the Iraqi military lost about 20,000 - 25,000 (ish) KIA. Thousands of Iraq civilians also died (assisted in this by the fact that Saddam used civilians as shields, because civilian casualties were convenient for him). The 1991 Gulf War was not a Genocide.

Just like a fight can technically be between a 98 year old granny and a mugger.

Indeed. Or between the Iraqi Republican Guard and the US Air Force.

However, sides being mis-matched in a war does not make that war a Genocide.

But it is occupation. I never said occupation = genocide.

...when I said this was literally urban combat (vice Genocide) and you disagreed, and argued that, for it to be Urban Warfare instead of Genocide:

it would require that one side is not occupying the other, with total control over their resources.

It is unfortunate that the IDF does not have total control over HAMAS resources (this would be over much more quickly if so), but, that is indeed what you argued.

They did commit war crimes, though, right? That was the point of establishing international law post-WW2.

Every army - no matter how well trained and policed - in prolonged combat has members who commit war crimes; and yes, the Allies did have people who committed war crimes.

However, no, the international law they created after WW2 was not written as a means of going after those particular soldiers.

Technically you can call it squabble. Lets use more accurate terms to describe what's going on.

Correct. This is Urban Warfare.

Genocide has a very clear definition. What is it?

From US Code:

Section 1091 of Title 18, United States Code, prohibits genocide whether committed in time of peace or time of war. Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.​

Note that nothing is said about whether one side is more powerful than the other (which is morally agnostic), nor is anything said about whether or not one side suffers more casualties than the other (which is an outcome both sides in any war generally strive to achieve).

 

[cpwill]

I've been waiting for credible evidence since the allegations were made.

Well: wait no more.

From the New York Times: How HAMAS Weaponized Sexual Violence on October 7th

A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.

Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated....​

How? It is not pleasant reading:

The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin. The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas....

The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.

She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.

...“They all gather around her,” Mr. Cohen said. “She’s standing up. They start raping her. I saw the men standing in a half circle around her. One penetrates her. She screams. I still remember her voice, screams without words.”

“Then one of them raises a knife,” he said, “and they just slaughtered her.”.....

Jamal Waraki, a volunteer medic with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he could not get out of his head a young woman in a rawhide vest found between the main stage and the bar. “Her hands were tied behind her back,” he said. “She was bent over, half naked, her underwear rolled down below her knees.”

Yinon Rivlin, a member of the rave’s production team who lost two brothers in the attacks, said that after hiding from the killers, he emerged from a ditch and made his way to the parking area, east of the party, along Route 232, looking for survivors. Near the highway, he said, he found the body of a young woman, on her stomach, no pants or underwear, legs spread apart. He said her vagina area appeared to have been sliced open, “as if someone tore her apart.”

Similar discoveries were made in two kibbutzim, Be’eri and Kfar Aza. Eight volunteer medics and two Israeli soldiers told The Times that in at least six different houses, they had come across a total of at least 24 bodies of women and girls naked or half naked, some mutilated, others tied up, and often alone.

A paramedic in an Israeli commando unit said that he had found the bodies of two teenage girls in a room in Be’eri. One was lying on her side, he said, boxer shorts ripped, bruises by her groin. The other was sprawled on the floor face down, he said, pajama pants pulled to her knees, bottom exposed, semen smeared on her back....​

 

[Felis Leo]

No. Hamas. That hamas is hiding behind civilian human shields isn’t Israel’s fault.

Human shields? That abstracted logic only works during bombing...and only then, barely. Where do you think Hamas actually is when Israel snipers fire upon unarmed children? What, do you think Hamas operatives are hiding inside the skulls of children?

 

[rahl]

Human shields?

Yes

That abstracted logic only works during bombing...and only then, barely.

No it doesn’t

Where do you think Hamas actually is when Israel snipers fire upon unarmed children?

They don’t fire on unarmed children.

What, do you think Hamas operatives are hiding inside the skulls of children?

No