Why Democrats Are Not Supporting Israel

[cpwill]

I've been waiting for credible evidence since the allegations were made.

Evidence points to systematic use of rape and sexual violence by Hamas in 7 October attacks

...On Monday, UN-appointed independent experts said that “given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks”, mounting evidence of rapes and genital mutilation pointed to possible crimes against humanity.​

They've been raping the hostages, too.

...Renana Eitan, the head of psychiatry at the Ichilov Tel Aviv medical centre, previously told the Guardian that of the 14 freed hostages still under her care – including children – several had been subjected to or witnessed sexual abuse. The US state department has said that the week-long truce between Israel and Hamas in November broke down because the militants refused to release the remaining women in its custody, over fears they would speak publicly about sexual violence....​

From the BBC:

"Some women were raped before they were dead, some raped while injured, and some were already dead when the terrorists raped their lifeless bodies," his statement says. "I desperately wanted to help, but there was nothing I could do."...​

​

Israel's Women's Empowerment Minister, May Golan, told the BBC that a few victims of rape or sexual assault had survived the attacks, and that they were all currently receiving psychiatric treatment.​

​

"But very, very few. The majority were brutally murdered," she said. "They aren't able to talk - not with me, and not to anyone from the government [or] from the media."​

​

Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.​

​

In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.​

​

Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.....​

From the left-wing oppositionist Haaretz: New Report Reveals Hamas' 'Widespread and Systematic' Sexual Violence on October 7

Zagagi-Pinhas told the Times that they had found patterns – victims found dead, stripped and mutilated, including being shot in the genitalia, and tied to trees – in several different areas. "The fact that the same things happened in three to six locations can't be coincidence, but proof this was premeditated," she said. "Many of the witnesses we spoke to talk of the victims being shot and them still trying to rape a dead body."​

​

This report includes testimony from 17 people who saw or heard attacks, therapists who worked with survivors, a victim of attempted rape at the Nova festival, dozens of first responders and 15 former hostages who returned from Hamas captivity – including two men.... Mental health experts who spoke to Haaretz for an investigation last year told of dozens more witnesses of assaults, including gang rapes. Oftentimes, the victims were killed after their assaults.​

 

[Felis Leo]

Yes

No it doesn’t

They don’t fire on unarmed children.

No

Israeli soldiers have admitted to firing upon unarmed civilians, including children.

IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid

***

www.haaretz.com

So try a less-unintelligent easily-disproven lie to blurt out.

 

[cpwill]

All the people who carried out/ordered the October 7th attacks are dead. So who is the "they" here, rahl? Ten year-olds lining up for food being used as target practice by the IDF?

1. Israel needs food distribution outside of HAMAS' control to work.

2. "Near" does a LOT of work when it is used to mean "not actually at the site, but half a klick away"

.... i wanted to give a fuller answer, but, I need to go to bed with the wife, so, If you want that, let me know, and I will try to knock it out this at some point this week.

 

[Felis Leo]

....you have to know that is not happening.

Israeli soldiers are killing unarmed children, cpwill. They are admitting to killing unarmed children. Both in Gaza and the West Bank.

Israeli soldiers snipe children constantly. They are very good at it. Of course, the sources for this are Ha'aretz and B'Tselem. Do you presume that these soldiers who admit to this are just a bunch of lying left-wing crybaby Jewish conscripts who are telling this to lying Ha'aretz and lying B'Tselem who are made up of other lying left-wing Jews who are trying to make their country look bad because...they are just evil liars who want to hurt Israel?

Or is it because the government that calls the Palestinians "Amalek" and the government ministers who constantly talk about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and permanently expelling the Palestinians actually hate the Palestinians and would be happy to see them all dead and is acting upon their desires through their military?

EDIT: I just saw your edits cpwill. Happy to pick this back up tomorrow.

 

[jaypatriot]

Israel doesn’t want a two state solution, as its actions have made quite clear.

America was unable to protect apartheid South Africa indefinitely, and Israel is well on its way down the same path.

Israel is smart to not want a two-state solution.
Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank still want to kill Jews.
Until they renounce that stated goal, why should Israel trust them to be their official neighbor?
The Palestinian Authority still has not amended their charter which clearly states it is still official PA policy to destroy the State of Israel.
If they still state they wish to destroy Israel then why would Israel agree to a two-state solution?

Did the PA Ever Revise Its Charter Calling for the Destruction of Israel?​

Dec 3, 2023, 9:39 PM
But is the PA still technically committed to the destruction of Israel? Unless the PA has officially amended the Palestinian National Covenant, then it is still official PA policy to destroy the State of Israel. So, did they revise the PLO Charter in accordance with the Oslo Accords?

Let’s examine if they did. According to Article 33 of the PLO Charter:

This charter can not be amended except by a two-thirds majority of all the members of the National Assembly in a special session called for this purpose.

In a special session held by the Palestinian National Council on April 24, 1996, 504 members voted in favour of amending the PLO Charter, 54 against, and 14 abstentions. However, according to Wikipedia:

In 1996, when the Council had to vote on the revision of the Palestinian National Charter, the total number of PNC members was increased from 400 to about 800.

In sum, only 63% of the total PNC members (504 out of 800) voted to nullify the offending articles, falling just short of the two-thirds majority needed to comply with Article 33 in order to have any legal effect. In any case, this was a vote to agree to amend the Charter. It did not itself result in a formally amended Charter.

The Blogs: Did the PA Ever Revise Its Charter Calling for the Destruction of Israel?

From the blog of James Cooper at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com

 

[rahl]

Israeli soldiers have admitted to firing upon unarmed civilians, including children.

No they haven’t.

So try a less-unintelligent easily-disproven lie to blurt out.

Hamas hides behind civilians. They are in the find out stage after October 7th.

 

[Logophile]

No, stands on its own. Do you support people who hate you ?

People have to have cause to hate. If I don't give them cause, they don't hate. Your question is rather silly. If you are trying to apply it to the Palestians, as per all humans, they are likely to hate those that oppress them, steal from them and hurt them. The US government has supported that oppression. The Israeli government causes their suffering. You can put two and two together

 

[Real blank]

People have to have cause to hate. If I don't give them cause, they don't hate. Your question is rather silly. If you are trying to apply it to the Palestians, as per all humans, they are likely to hate those that oppress them, steal from them and hurt them. The US government has supported that oppression. The Israeli government causes their suffering. You can put two and two together

I imagine you know this isn’t true. Do you think everyone that is hated are actually responsible for hatred against them.

 

[Tigerace117]

Israel is smart to not want a two-state solution.
Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank still want to kill Jews.
Until they renounce that stated goal, why should Israel trust them to be their official neighbor?
The Palestinian Authority still has not amended their charter which clearly states it is still official PA policy to destroy the State of Israel.
If they still state they wish to destroy Israel then why would Israel agree to a two-state solution?

Did the PA Ever Revise Its Charter Calling for the Destruction of Israel?​

Dec 3, 2023, 9:39 PM
But is the PA still technically committed to the destruction of Israel? Unless the PA has officially amended the Palestinian National Covenant, then it is still official PA policy to destroy the State of Israel. So, did they revise the PLO Charter in accordance with the Oslo Accords?

Let’s examine if they did. According to Article 33 of the PLO Charter:

This charter can not be amended except by a two-thirds majority of all the members of the National Assembly in a special session called for this purpose.

In a special session held by the Palestinian National Council on April 24, 1996, 504 members voted in favour of amending the PLO Charter, 54 against, and 14 abstentions. However, according to Wikipedia:

In 1996, when the Council had to vote on the revision of the Palestinian National Charter, the total number of PNC members was increased from 400 to about 800.

In sum, only 63% of the total PNC members (504 out of 800) voted to nullify the offending articles, falling just short of the two-thirds majority needed to comply with Article 33 in order to have any legal effect. In any case, this was a vote to agree to amend the Charter. It did not itself result in a formally amended Charter.

The Blogs: Did the PA Ever Revise Its Charter Calling for the Destruction of Israel?

From the blog of James Cooper at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com

Then Israel has no one to blame but itself for the Palestinians continuing to fight back against oppressive foreign occupiers.

Why should any of the middle eastern states trust Israel to be their neighbor, given Israel’s often stated desires and attempts to steal their land?

 

[Logophile]

I imagine you know this isn’t true. Do you think everyone that is hated are actually responsible for hatred against them.

In the case of the Palestinians, it's certainly true. And since that's what we're actually talking about, I'll just say it

 

[The Brad Dad]

Hamas probably shouldn’t have attacked Israel on October 7th. They are in the find out stage now.

What was so bad about Oct 7? I hear it's a war.

 

[bomberfox]

This war for greater Israel is netanyahu’s goal.

 

[jaypatriot]

Then Israel has no one to blame but itself for the Palestinians continuing to fight back against oppressive foreign occupiers.

Why should any of the middle eastern states trust Israel to be their neighbor, given Israel’s often stated desires and attempts to steal their land?

You wrote: "Why should any of the middle eastern states trust Israel to be their neighbor, given Israel’s often stated desires and attempts to steal their land?"

The counter argument to that should be:
Why should Israel trust Palestine to be their neighbor, given the Palestinians' often stated desires and attempts to destroy that sovereign country?

You've hit upon the reason the conflict goes on and on. No one trusts the other side to do what is right to create peace and harmony in that region.

Israel no doubt feels eliminating Hamas and settling more of the West Bank is the only way for Israel to insure its sovereignty over the Palestinian territories.
In other words "Might makes right".

It's the so-called Mexican Standoff.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Perhaps the answer is simple. The democrats are now pro Hamas/Palestine because Trump is pro-Israel. We’ve entered a political era where democrats automatically oppose anything republican while republicans automatically oppose anything democratic. They’re even willing to do a 180. Since Reagan the GOP has been very much pro-free trade while democrats were more protectionist. Since Trump began with his tariffs, protectionist, the democrats have all of a sudden become pro-free trade.

Being pro-Israel has been a bi-partisan affair since good old, the buck stops here, Harry Truman. Now that Trump has maintained the GOP pro-Israel stance, the democrats have become anti-Israel. I think this anti-Israel stance the democrats are now taking is 100% due to Trump being pro-Israel. It falls into line with democrats opposing anything the republican propose and vice versa, the democrats opposing any republican proposal. No thoughts as to the merits of the proposal is given, just who proposed it.

If only we could go back to the days when party politics was not so tribal.

 

[MAGAnificent]

And Israel needs to stop building settlements, abandon its maximalist military objectives, and commit to the two-state solution.

Baloney. The Palestinians are not the least bit interested in a two-state solution. Their singular goal is the complete annihilation of the state of Israel. That is in the charter of Hamas and every other terrorist group attacking Israel. They had that goal in mind when attacking Israel on 10/7/23.

 

[bomberfox]

It's hard to explain why people want to defend those who would hate them if they knew them.

Mh its complicated. I dont think i would be accosted in Ramallah but even then my position is if we didnt react to the nazis with genocide why should we treat Palestinians differently? Why should west bank palestinians continue to suffer terrorism from Israeli settlers like Moshe Sharvit? There are literally American citizens who go to Israel to aid in displacement.

 

[bomberfox]

1. Israel needs food distribution outside of HAMAS' control to work.

2. "Near" does a LOT of work when it is used to mean "not actually at the site, but half a klick away"

.... i wanted to give a fuller answer, but, I need to go to bed with the wife, so, If you want that, let me know, and I will try to knock it out this at some point this week.

On that note it seems that the aid was being stolen by ISIS drug traffickers among others.

 

[Tigerace117]

You wrote: "Why should any of the middle eastern states trust Israel to be their neighbor, given Israel’s often stated desires and attempts to steal their land?"

The counter argument to that should be:
Why should Israel trust Palestine to be their neighbor, given the Palestinians' often stated desires and attempts to destroy that sovereign country?

You've hit upon the reason the conflict goes on and on. No one trusts the other side to do what is right to create peace and harmony in that region.

Israel no doubt feels eliminating Hamas and settling more of the West Bank is the only way for Israel to insure its sovereignty over the Palestinian territories.
In other words "Might makes right".

It's the so-called Mexican Standoff.

If “might makes right” Israel has no room to wail about Hamas.

Nazi Germany no doubt felt it was their right to conquer their neighbors as well. Israel feeling stealing other people’s land is “their right’ can’t change the nature of said action, nor make Israel’s mass murder campaign go away.

 

[cpwill]

On that note it seems that the aid was being stolen by ISIS drug traffickers among others.

I am astonished to learn that Islamist terrorist organizations have been stealing food to prioritize themselves and control others. How very surprising and not at all exactly like what we've seen from them many times before.

 

[bomberfox]

I am astonished to learn that Islamist terrorist organizations have been stealing food to prioritize themselves and control others. How very surprising and not at all exactly like what we've seen from them many times before.

Im adding that organizations not aligned with Hamas stole food aid and ive seen people on here and within the Israeli government specifically back this blockade as a form of hostage negotiation and not stopping hamas from stealing it.

 

[jaypatriot]

If “might makes right” Israel has no room to wail about Hamas.

Nazi Germany no doubt felt it was their right to conquer their neighbors as well. Israel feeling stealing other people’s land is “their right’ can’t change the nature of said action, nor make Israel’s mass murder campaign go away.

Hamas is like cockroaches in a big city. It is a never-ending battle to rid a city of insect infestation. The more that Hamas fighters are killed, the safer Israel will be.
It's been that way fighting Arab terrorists since 1948 when Israel was first established.

I continue to be in favor of Israel destroying any threat that weakens their sovereign as a nation struggling to survive.

 

[Tigerace117]

Hamas is like cockroaches in a big city. It is a never-ending battle to rid a city of insect infestation. The more that Hamas fighters are killed, the safer Israel will be.
It's been that way fighting Arab terrorists since 1948 when Israel was first established.

I continue to be in favor of Israel destroying any threat that weakens their sovereign as a nation struggling to survive.

Israel’s desperation attempts to implant a Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem can’t be excused with any amounts of wails about Hamas.

Israeli forces have indeed been attacking peaceful Palestinian villages since 1948.

You are in favor of literally anything Israel does, so that is throughly meaningless

 

[jaypatriot]

Israel’s desperation attempts to implant a Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem can’t be excused with any amounts of wails about Hamas.

Israeli forces have indeed been attacking peaceful Palestinian villages since 1948.

You are in favor of literally anything Israel does, so that is throughly meaningless

I find it offensive and unbelievable anyone would actually compare what Israel is doing in Gaza to the Nazi Final Solution implemented in Germany in 1942, where there was a plan to exterminate six million Jews, Poles, and other minorities from Eastern Europe.

There's a lack of perspective there that boggles the mind.

 

[Tigerace117]

I find it offensive and unbelievable anyone would actually compare what Israel is doing in Gaza to the Nazi Final Solution implemented in Germany in 1942, where there was a plan to exterminate six million Jews, Poles, and other minorities from Eastern Europe.

There's a lack of perspective there that boggles the mind.

Given you happily defend Israel forcibly sterilizing non white Jewish people, that claim is utterly laughable.

Israel is gleefully emulating the Nazis in a desperate attempt to carry out the Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem

 

[NolanVoyd]

Hamas

No. Hamas. That hamas is hiding behind civilian human shields isn’t Israel’s fault.