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Why Capitalism Is Worth Defending

So what happens if one week before your socialist hordes take over the US, I mortgage my home to the hilt, take all of the equity and buy a whole bunch of machine tools or high end computer animation equipment, rent a warehouse and start a metal working company or a animation studio? Am I left penniless?

If I write a book, or create Spider-man, do I get to keep the copyright? If I invent a new drug, do I get to keep the patent?

I’ve posted a rough sketch of how a more-or-less ‘fully realized’ Libertarian Socialist society might function, here;

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-co...sm-and-communism-hated-65.html#post1059747824
 
I’ve posted a rough sketch of how a more-or-less ‘fully realized’ Libertarian Socialist society might function, here;

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-co...sm-and-communism-hated-65.html#post1059747824

I've already read that comment. It doesn't answer my questions.


So what happens if one week before your socialist hordes take over the US, I mortgage my home to the hilt, take all of the equity and buy a whole bunch of machine tools or high end computer animation equipment, rent a warehouse and start a metal working company or a animation studio? Am I left penniless?

If I write a book, or create Spider-man, do I get to keep the copyright? If I invent a new drug, do I get to keep the patent?​
 
Once again, the mushy-headedness of socialism rears its ugly head. It's not stealing if they've been contracted to perform the labor.

This is wrong for several reasons. First, and foremost; those contracts are illegitimate because they were signed under duress.
 
I've already read that comment. It doesn't answer my questions.
So what happens if one week before your socialist hordes take over the US, I mortgage my home to the hilt, take all of the equity and buy a whole bunch of machine tools or high end computer animation equipment, rent a warehouse and start a metal working company or a animation studio? Am I left penniless?
If I write a book, or create Spider-man, do I get to keep the copyright? If I invent a new drug, do I get to keep the patent?​

I'm not going to play this game.
 
I'm not going to play this game.

Oh pretty please, please play the game. It's simple really.

I just want to know why the money I invest in my house will be off-limits but the same money I invest in buying machines which count as the means of production will be taken away from me. Why the different treatment. Why punish me when I invest in machines to a.) create an income for me, b.) create incomes for people who freely decide that they want to work for me, and c.) create products that people freely decide to buy?

You don't have an answer for my question because your silly intellectual masturbation isn't a coherent philosophy, it's just angst-driven escapism that is divorced from reality. It's not a system of thought, it's just snippets of intellectually sounding prose that appeals to the envy centers in your brain.
 
This is wrong for several reasons. First, and foremost; those contracts are illegitimate because they were signed under duress.

Here we go again. Workers are slaves clearly..
 
The proper term for it is Wage Slavery. It's a painful reality for most Americans, myself included.

That anyone would compare the condition of a kid yapping all day about communism on an internet forum to a nineteenth century African-American sharecropper or a child laborer in a sweatshop is offensive at best. The very fact that you have the free time and resources to get online and whine everyday proves that you are no wage-slave; you are actually one of the exploiters, or at least a beneficiary thereof. So keep your arrogant, judgmental mouth shut. The system is highly flawed, but using violent coercion to force state ownership of the ill-defined "means of production" is not the solution.
 
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Any socialist answer to this question will fall somewhere between fairyland and fascism.

Either they expect everybody to come together willingly in a socialist utopia (like the idiotic anarcho-syndicalists think will happen), or else they will violently coerce the legitimate owners of capital to give it up (e.g. Soviet Union).

It's either an impossibility, or an authoritarian nightmare.

For socialism to function, coercion is necessary and overly abundant. Personal freedoms are also sacrificed.

Note that he conveniently ignores that the now owners, worked to earn the money to create the business and that many still work to grow that same business.
Also note, that many of the workers for that owner, own other businesses through their retirement plans and that they also profit "from exploitation" of other workers.

It's a totally ridiculous concept.

I don't necessarily disapprove of socialism as a concept, but it only works on paper. It has never worked when applied to reality. People will not work for the "greater good" of mankind.
 
For socialism to function, coercion is necessary and overly abundant. Personal freedoms are also sacrificed.

Property rights are sacrificed, other freedoms should remain intact in a socialist economy/society. When real socialism arrives coercion won't be necessary.



I don't necessarily disapprove of socialism as a concept, but it only works on paper. It has never worked when applied to reality. People will not work for the "greater good" of mankind.

But they will work for themselves, right? The point isn't to work for the greater good of humanity, it's to work for yourself and instead of a property owner.

History is littered with cases of people trying to force communism into existence. When the world is ready for it, the process will be much less painless, will face much less resistance and will operate much smoother.
 
Property rights are sacrificed, other freedoms should remain intact in a socialist economy/society. When real socialism arrives coercion won't be necessary.

Mankind must evolve past the point of egoism for socialism or any similar system to work. We aren't even close to being at that point.


But they will work for themselves, right? The point isn't to work for the greater good of humanity, it's to work for yourself and instead of a property owner.

History is littered with cases of people trying to force communism into existence. When the world is ready for it, the process will be much less painless, will face much less resistance and will operate much smoother.

Because people think only of themselves, and how they can benefit from any given situation, socialism will always fail.
 
Mankind must evolve past the point of egoism for socialism or any similar system to work. We aren't even close to being at that point.

Because people think only of themselves, and how they can benefit from any given situation, socialism will always fail.

Egoism isn't going to be enough to save individualism when individualism is no longer an option, it might even help fuel the transition into socialism. As countries around the globe continue to advance culturally and economically, more and more people are going to collectively decide that working for pennies for the benefit of foreign powers or property owners doesn't serve their own interests. They're going to demand improved wages and working conditions, just like every developing culture before them. Eventually the leverage necessary to produce capital will be lost as cheap labor becomes more and more scarce. As capitalism naturally speeds up the development the poorer countries who provide the labor for the capitalist countries, capitalism is essentially committing suicide at a very slow rate.
 
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Egoism isn't going to be enough to save individualism when individualism is no longer an option, it might even help fuel the transition into socialism. As countries around the globe continue to advance culturally and economically, more and more people are going to collectively decide that working for pennies for the benefit of foreign powers or property owners doesn't serve their own interests. They're going to demand improved wages and working conditions, just like every developing culture before them. Eventually the leverage necessary to produce capital will be lost as cheap labor becomes more and more scarce. As capitalism naturally speeds up the development the poorer countries who provide the labor for the capitalist countries, capitalism is essentially committing suicide at a very slow rate.

What makes you think that cheap labor will become scarce? or that the common man will ever have more leverage than the wealthy? Equality is as unlikely as peace. I don't have the confidence in humanity that you apparently have.
 
What makes you think that cheap labor will become scarce? or that the common man will ever have more leverage than the wealthy? Equality is as unlikely as peace. I don't have the confidence in humanity that you apparently have.

What makes you think any population in the world will work for next to nothing forever? The people working for a few dollars a day today aren't going to be content with doing so as their country/culture continues to develop and modernize. Just as workers in the US and throughout the west started becoming less content with low wages, so will workers in the third world eventually. It's not that the common man will have more leverage over the wealthy, it's that the wealthy will have less leverage over the worker. American capitalists have less leverage over American workers than they do over Chinese or Mexican workers right?

It just seems to me that either 30 years from now, or 100 years from now collective effort will start replacing individual ownership naturally as the third world starts catching up with the rest of us.
 
The free market brings peace and equality?

Or hand and hang? ;)
 
The free market brings peace and equality?

Or hand and hang? ;)

Hand in hand, of course.

And yes, it does. Peace and equality are what you get when people are free to do business with one another. Free trade is what brings and preserves peace. The free market is what permits equality.

War and inequality stem from oppression and coercion.
 
It seems we have very different definitions of peace and equality. "The free market brings peace and equality" strikes me as doublespeak.

How does the market permit equality? It certainly doesn't produce income equality, which determines quality of life. If everything depended solely on how much spending power you have there would be vast inequality and injustice.

The free market brings and preserves peace? Isn't coercion and oppression necessary to open new markets and to produce capital? History has a long record of weak countries who are rich in resources being meddled with by powerful countries who are in need of resources and new markets. Invasions, coup d'etats, economic sanctions, revolutions ect are all common practice for the sake of international commerce.
 
It seems we have very different definitions of peace and equality. "The free market brings peace and equality" strikes me as doublespeak.

I have to admit, Bardo, you are one of the few reasonable socialists I have been speaking with lately, so I will be happy to have a reasonable discussion with you, as you raise some good questions.

You say my definition of equality is doublespeak, but I would say that it is in fact yours.

How does the market permit equality?

By definition a free market is one free from coercion. Naturally, I am not speaking of the corporatist hybrid-economy we have today, which is rife with corrupt government oppression. But a true free market necessarily is based on equality. What do I mean by equality? Nothing less the what is meant by "equal protection under the law."

True equality recognizes the equality of both sexes, all races, all religions (and non-religious views), all sexual orientations. We are far from true equality today. But Libertopia would see all diverse peoples treated equally by government. Government, in turn, would be the only organization to legitimately initiate coercion, in the enforcement of such laws as are minimally necessary to ensure sustained liberty and equality for all.

It certainly doesn't produce income equality,

No, just as it doesn't produce height equality, or weight equality, or IQ equality, good-looks equality, charisma equality, etc...

which determines quality of life.

Only for some, and even then only partially. All those factors I just listed are equally if not more important to quality of life.

Personally, I disagree with you that income has any bearing whatsoever on quality of life. See the quote in my sig.

If everything depended solely on how much spending power you have there would be vast inequality and injustice.

Not at all. I don't see the basis for your statement that "everything depends on spending power." You shouldn't be able murder or steal, no matter how much money you spend. We're not talking about anarchy or corruption here.

The free market brings and preserves peace?

When people are trading, and investing in one another, and doing so fairly, they are not going to war.

Isn't coercion and oppression necessary to open new markets and to produce capital?

No.

History has a long record of weak countries who are rich in resources being meddled with by powerful countries who are in need of resources and new markets. Invasions, coup d'etats, economic sanctions, revolutions ect are all common practice for the sake of international commerce.

All perpetrated by criminals, corrupt corporatists and the like (and communists and socialists have committed just as many of the exact same atrocities as you just listed) This has nothing to do with the free market.
 
By definition a free market is one free from coercion. Naturally, I am not speaking of the corporatist hybrid-economy we have today, which is rife with corrupt government oppression. But a true free market necessarily is based on equality. What do I mean by equality? Nothing less the what is meant by "equal protection under the law."

Equal protection under the law doesn't mean it's a level playing field, this is what I'm getting at when I say your definition of equality is different from mine. To say that the free market is totally free from coercion seems a bit naive, I know you'll say the same about Marxian economics, just bear with me. Entities at work within the market (corporations, entrepreneurs, ect) are naturally going to want to expand, right? It's also natural that they're going to run into competitors. These entities are going to do everything within their means to defeat their competitors and continue on expanding by soaking up more of their market. They're going to cut corners. In order to compete in an ever more competitive market they're going to have to cut costs somewhere, and I'd argue that eventually they're going to have to cut costs everywhere.

What is there to stop these entities from expanding indefinitely? The answer I keep hearing is "the market will correct itself eventually". What if it doesn't? I run a small business, anyone who runs a business knows that it can be nearly impossible to compete with larger businesses who can afford to produce, market and distribute similar goods and services at a much lower price. So if one business starts gaining more and more influence over their market, what's to stop them from monopolizing their market all together? This leads me to believe that as capitalism becomes more and more established and advanced that eventually corporatism is inevitable. Businesses will literally become "too big to fail".

True equality recognizes the equality of both sexes, all races, all religions (and non-religious views), all sexual orientations. We are far from true equality today.

Agreed.




No, just as it doesn't produce height equality, or weight equality, or IQ equality, good-looks equality, charisma equality, etc...

Come on, Guy. Income inequality drastically affects lives, and is not as subjective or frivolous as height equality, weight equality, good looks equality, ect ect. I'm not suggesting economics should be responsible for finding love for everyone. I would argue that income inequality is also oppressive. If the market was completely free, one's spending power would determine who is fit to receive medical care, education, shelter, even food and water. If you don't want to subscribe to this from a philosophical perspective, look at it from an economical perspective. If only the strong and fortunate are realistically (as opposed to lawfully) entitled the means to success, a minute portion of the populace will have the spending power to support the economy in any stable fashion. The poorest will be stealing what they need and the richest will be he ones keeping the economy going. Plutocracy is the only plausible result as far as I can see.



Only for some, and even then only partially. All those factors I just listed are equally if not more important to quality of life.

Personally, I disagree with you that income has any bearing whatsoever on quality of life. See the quote in my sig.

Again, we'll have to fundamentally disagree. If the market was as free as possible the rich will be living the most comfortable lives imaginable and the rest of us will have to support them with our labor, living the most uncomfortable, miserable lives imaginable. We can see this already, sweatshop workers in Taiwan are at the bottom of the totem pole, while we in the US are at the top. Sure, government oppression has alot to do with the poor quality of life of these third world states, but so does their position in the market. If the US was to pursue a laissez faire economy, we would just be returning those sweatshops to America where they have been expelled by labor movements and government regulation.



Not at all. I don't see the basis for your statement that "everything depends on spending power." You shouldn't be able murder or steal, no matter how much money you spend. We're not talking about anarchy or corruption here.

I'm not talking about "anarchy" or corruption either. See my third response in this post. If there are no public services or goods spending power will decide everything about one's existence. If you can't afford rent, you're homeless. If you can't afford health service, you go without. If you can't afford an education, you're stuck in this class.



When people are trading, and investing in one another, and doing so fairly, they are not going to war.

For this to work everyone has to conform to the free market. If there is a country that wants to nationalize their oil reserves, that strikes a blow to any potential markets or resource incomes and there will be war. Again, the more capitalism advances, the more inevitable corporatism becomes. You would also have to assume that people are indeed trading fairly. As a socialist I get very tired of hearing the "human nature" argument, but in this case it supports my argument. ;)




I think I've already addressed this in this post.



All perpetrated by criminals, corrupt corporatists and the like (and communists and socialists have committed just as many of the exact same atrocities as you just listed) This has nothing to do with the free market.

Fair enough. However, I'd argue that "communist" countries are much less likely to pursue imperial interests as there is no demand for expanding markets, growing profits, ect.
 
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These entities are going to do everything within their means to defeat their competitors and continue on expanding by soaking up more of their market. They're going to cut corners. In order to compete in an ever more competitive market they're going to have to cut costs somewhere, and I'd argue that eventually they're going to have to cut costs everywhere.

What is there to stop these entities from expanding indefinitely? The answer I keep hearing is "the market will correct itself eventually". What if it doesn't? I run a small business, anyone who runs a business knows that it can be nearly impossible to compete with larger businesses who can afford to produce, market and distribute similar goods and services at a much lower price. So if one business starts gaining more and more influence over their market, what's to stop them from monopolizing their market all together? This leads me to believe that as capitalism becomes more and more established and advanced that eventually corporatism is inevitable. Businesses will literally become "too big to fail".

This is a very interesting point and here’s my two cents:

I think a free-market economy’s effectiveness at producing benefit for all is largely weighed on the intelligence level of the individuals operating the free market.

Specifically I think that we as humans often think very much in the short term. It’s not our fault to many extents – we live short lives and are of limited brain power.

(and this is just one of many possible examples) If capitalists were able to operate in a market that truly valued the long term, of both the company, industry and the individuals loyal to it, I think we would be much more conscientious about the amount of waste we produce (because no earth = no business). But in reality there are investors that want returns now; who gives a crap what will happen in 200 years?

Our human short term thinking is what gives much of Capitalism a bad wrap.
 
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So if one business starts gaining more and more influence over their market, what's to stop them from monopolizing their market all together?

When's the last time you rode on a train? Railroad companies used to dominate the transportation sector of the economy; today, not so much. When's the last time you flew on Pan-Am or on Trans-World or Braniff? They used to dominate the airline industry. When's the last time that you heard of some company buying a hugely expensive IBM mainframe computer? IBM drove many smaller mainframe companies into oblivion. How about today? How many people do you know who own a GM car? It used to be the case that every car on the road, pretty much, was either a GM , Ford, or Chrysler, with GM having the largest market share.

Come on, Guy. Income inequality drastically affects lives, and is not as subjective or frivolous as height equality, weight equality, good looks equality, ect ect.

Income inequality has absolutely NO EFFECT on people's lives. Rich people spending their money in order to buy political influence does have an effect. The actual inequality has no effect. If Warren Buffet and all of the billionaires in America died tomorrow and their fortunes vanished into thin air, no one's life would be affected positively or negatively by the reduction in income inequality.

If you want to address the problems that tag along with income inequality, then set out to fix them, don't misdiagnose the problem. Political corruption is a real problem. I'll join you in rooting it out and extinguishing it. A rich person should have no more political influence than the poorest of the poor.

We can see this already, sweatshop workers in Taiwan are at the bottom of the totem pole, while we in the US are at the top. Sure, government oppression has alot to do with the poor quality of life of these third world states, but so does their position in the market.

It's interesting that you bring up the case of sweatshop workers. We often see this story play-out - do-gooding leftists agitate on behalf of sweatshop laborers in foreign countries. They work to raise the incomes of these workers. The consumer boycotts are so successful that the company raises the wages of the workers in order to end the boycott and protests. Do-gooding leftists move on to their next target. What's left behind is a company paying employees more than the value that they produce and the company can no longer sell the product at a competitive price. The company fires the employees. The employees now have no job, but at least they can starve and beg with the dignity that comes from not working in a sweatshop. Great.
 
Income inequality has absolutely NO EFFECT on people's lives. Rich people spending their money in order to buy political influence does have an effect. The actual inequality has no effect. If Warren Buffet and all of the billionaires in America died tomorrow and their fortunes vanished into thin air, no one's life would be affected positively or negatively by the reduction in income inequality

Disagree 100% because income inequality leads to wealth inequality and we have a finite amount of wealth to go around (food, water, land, ect).

If within a group there are 4 and 1 has 99% of the food supply for himself, you better believe the inequality will impact the remaining 3 in at least one way or another.
 
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Disagree 100% because income inequality leads to wealth inequality and we have a finite amount of wealth to go around (food, water, land, ect).

If within a group there are 4 and 1 has 99% of the food supply for himself, you better believe the inequality will impact the remaining 3 in at least one way or another.

If all 5 people are on an island and they're drawing sustenance from harvesting from the sea and 1 of the 5 decides that in his free time he is going to wall off a section of the sea coast and create a sea-farm and stock it with fish that he catches instead of eating those fish, then when the sea-farm returns a bounty of fish, he has CREATED this new wealth from scratch. The other 4 people have done nothing to aid in the creation of this wealth.

Now, if you as a god-overseer of this island, decide to take this man up to heaven and you destroy his walled-in sea farm, the other 4 people remaining on the Island are no worse off, at all.

One man created the wealth, but his having the wealth didn't affect the others, and when the man and the wealth he created are removed from the situation, the lives of the other 4 are not changed.
 
Equal protection under the law doesn't mean it's a level playing field,

Sure it does. What else could you ask for? Without infringing on the rights of othres?

this is what I'm getting at when I say your definition of equality is different from mine.

Well that's pretty critical.

To say that the free market is totally free from coercion seems a bit naive, I know you'll say the same about Marxian economics, just bear with me. Entities at work within the market (corporations, entrepreneurs, ect) are naturally going to want to expand, right? It's also natural that they're going to run into competitors. These entities are going to do everything within their means to defeat their competitors and continue on expanding by soaking up more of their market. They're going to cut corners. In order to compete in an ever more competitive market they're going to have to cut costs somewhere, and I'd argue that eventually they're going to have to cut costs everywhere.

What is there to stop these entities from expanding indefinitely? The answer I keep hearing is "the market will correct itself eventually". What if it doesn't? I run a small business, anyone who runs a business knows that it can be nearly impossible to compete with larger businesses who can afford to produce, market and distribute similar goods and services at a much lower price.

Yes, but why is it impossible to compete with a large business? Because they have coercive protection arrangement with the government, in the form of government-backed corporate liability shield, government enforced monopolies, the government forces small businesses to jump through more hoop than a large, well-capitalized business.

The fact is that government which interfere minimally with the free market will promote competition and create a market where there is less dominance by big businesses.


So if one business starts gaining more and more influence over their market, what's to stop them from monopolizing their market all together? This leads me to believe that as capitalism becomes more and more established and advanced that eventually corporatism is inevitable. Businesses will literally become "too big to fail".

You need to understand that capitalize takes place no matter what. It is like gravity, even if you put some artificial impediment it its way the force of gravity will still operate on a falling object. Likewise, even if artificial impediments are placed in people's way, there will still be capitalism. "Capitalism" is just a description of human behavior. It can either be free or inhibited.

Look at the Soviet Union, which had a stagnant bureacracy, because people weren't getting paid for their talent and amibition but paid just for showing up. Everybody gets equally, so nobody puts out the effort. And a shadow market showed up of corrupt power-brokering that resulted in a power-based capitalism rather than a money-based capitalism.

Best just to embrace this human tendency. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "Get out of the road if you can't lend a hand."


That's a start.




Come on, Guy. Income inequality drastically affects lives,

I couldn't disagree more. Store up your treasure in heaven, my friend.

and is not as subjective or frivolous as height equality, weight equality, good looks equality, ect ect.

You call that frivolous? Tell that the somebody like Megan Fox who makes a multi-million career based on her good looks. Or Shaquille O'Neill who made a multi-million career on his height. Or any of the myriad people who have gotten by on sheer looks, charisma, personality, etc.

And I notice you side-step intellect...

That fact is, people are unequal in intellect, looks, charisma, connections, skills, likes and dislikes. It's variety. Trying to force equality of income, no different than trying to force equality in any of these areas.

Recall again that the people are going to trade to better their position no matter what the government. Even if you divvy up all the money equally, some people are going to be better situated for other reasons. You cannot have the kind of "equality" you are looking for, it is a fool's errand.
 
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