Why aren't we debating behavior?[W:132]

[Masada]

Violence is a behavior which leads to gun related crime. While it may be true that if NO gun existed, there would be no gun related deaths, it doesn't address the root of our societal problem, which is behavior.

One thing we all have in common is a desire to see tragedies like Sandy Hook prevented in the future. Senseless shootings and the loss of innocent life is an horrific tragedy. That being said, many people are concerned about steps being taken that 1. Dont have any real impact on such violence, and 2. Violate the freedoms of ALL Americans.

Behavior should be addressed once and for all. I'll have the courage to give my opinion after looking through hundreds of research studies and countless pages of statistics.

The vast majority of gun related violence occurs in America's 50 largest metropolitan areas. In fact, in these cities, there are more than 17 gun related deaths per 100,000 people, while the national average is just 5 gun related deaths per 100,000 people. Taking a closer look at the demographics, I learned that White males, ages 10-19, had a homicide rate of 6 shooting deaths per 100,000 people. Black males, ages 10-19, had a homicide rate of 50 shooting deaths per 100,000 people. Statistics show that upwards of 76% of ALL gun related homicides are committed by black males between the ages of 10-26.

This is literally a "hands off" topic for sooooo many people. But I'll give my own opinion anyway. If it's a discussion we need to have as a nation, then perhaps we are discussing the wrong issues when it comes to "guns". Why doesn't it make sense to address such statistics? 76% of all gun related homicides are committed by a very narrow segment of our society. What does that tell us? But the problem is, too many people are afraid of engaging this topic out of fear of being called "racist". It's a damn tragedy, and we refuse to address it because of political correctness and fear. We would rather diminish our nation's Constitution than confront the elephant in the room and run the risk of offending someone.

Outreach, education, funding? What is effective? Why are the rates of homicide so lop sided? What is causing this? Why are homicide rates so much higher in cities? These are the questions we need to be answering. I have my own opinions on why the numbers are so lopsided, but let's hear everyone else's.

 

[Fisher]

Because the leftist autocratic faction isn't willing to engage in an honest debate about these issues because they highlight the failure of the welfare system and paint pretty big chunks of their base in a very bad light, so they attack the right's base instead and blame them for no preventing the left's base from stealing their guns and murdering and robbing people with them. If you pay attention you will notice how they will say criminal, but not discuss poverty in the debate or statistics about race and violent crime. It is a good subject to bring up if you want to hear the crickets chirping.

 

[Masada]

Because the leftist autocratic faction isn't willing to engage in an honest debate about these issues because they highlight the failure of the welfare system and paint pretty big chunks of their base in a very bad light, so they attack the right's base instead and blame them for no preventing the left's base from stealing their guns and murdering and robbing people with them. If you pay attention you will notice how they will say criminal, but not discuss poverty in the debate or statistics about race and violent crime. It is a good subject to bring up if you want to hear the crickets chirping.

I agree with you, but I'm not coming at this from a "racial" slant at all. Everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs, "DO SOMETHING!!!" Ok, well, for once why don't we do something meaningful? Gun violence is a huge issue in the black community. It's the NUMBER ONE cause of death for black males under the age of 35. Why????? What is causing there to be a substantially larger amount of violence within the black community?

 

[Fisher]

I agree with you, but I'm not coming at this from a "racial" slant at all. Everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs, "DO SOMETHING!!!" Ok, well, for once why don't we do something meaningful? Gun violence is a huge issue in the black community. It's the NUMBER ONE cause of death for black males under the age of 35. Why????? What is causing there to be a substantially larger amount of violence within the black community?

My opinion on it is simple--Welfare. Concentrate low-income blacks into government housing projects, give them just enough to survive on but punish them by taking that away if they make any effort to start up the ladder, and what you have left is idle people left to their own devices in an otherwise unstructured environment. My criticism with welfare isn't that it exists, but that it is surrounded by a cliff with no realistic pathways out for those who are the most dependent on the system because of the lingering effects of codified racism and segregation. People pass the time drinking, drugging, and fighting because to get a minimum wage job might cost you the roof over your head.

 

[Goshin]

Lotta violent crime in cities. Maybe we should ban cities. :mrgreen:

 

[Masada]

Yes, lotta violent crime in cities.

But look at America's largest city, New York City. Mayor Giulianni reduced crime in that city immensly. He didn't do it by banning guns, passing new regulations, and the like. He did it by cracking down in a serious way on violent offenders. He was proactive, not reactive. Why liberals can't take a page from his book is beyond me.....

 

[justabubba]

BOTH aspects need to be discussed and the findings used to implement laws designed to thwart crime
and since much of criminal activity is conducted while using a gun, it is only prudent to assure changes in gun law is a part of the discussion

 

[Goshin]

Violence as a behavior is a complicated subject with no easy answers. It does not lend itself well to soundbites and short impassioned political rhetoric, and with no glib solutions to offer politicians don't wish to tackle it. Also, as you pointed out, some of the data about violence and demographics could be construed as "racially charged" and most politicians dread opening that can of worms worse than they fear losing elections.

Really though... the US isn't particularly violent compared to the world at large. We're about middle-rank in homicides, and some studies say we have far LESS violence that England... just more of it fatal.

Violent crime is way down from a high in the 70s.

What we HAVE are high-profile cases like the elementary school shooting that the 24/7 Red-Bull version of media overhypes so drastically you'd think it happens every month... and it doesn't. These rare statisical anomalies are not really what a rational analysis needs to look at, but rather the daily grind of routine violent crime... which again, isn't that bad in America.

So yeah, we have certain segments of the population who are more prone to violent crime, that is to using unlawful violence as a means to an end or an expression of rage, than others. What do these segments of society tend to have in common?

1. Poverty.
2. A view of the system as biased against them; a lack of hope for positive change.
3. A culture that glorifies violence, "attitude", ego, the acquisition of great wealth, disdain for education and conventional success, distrust of the rest of society, etc.
4. Welfare... no money and idle hands are the Devil's workshop no doubt.
5. Gangs, factions, "us vs them", drug trade.

Put all that together, and especially where human beings are jammed in tight in a dense population where they rub against each other in social friction constantly, and you have a recipe for violence.

Solving that one is going to be difficult.

 

[Paschendale]

Because the leftist autocratic faction isn't willing to engage in an honest debate about these issues because they highlight the failure of the welfare system and paint pretty big chunks of their base in a very bad light, so they attack the right's base instead and blame them for no preventing the left's base from stealing their guns and murdering and robbing people with them. If you pay attention you will notice how they will say criminal, but not discuss poverty in the debate or statistics about race and violent crime. It is a good subject to bring up if you want to hear the crickets chirping.

...

I, and many others, talk about poverty as the cause of violent crime all the time. Such discussions are usually met with "poor people are the way they are because they make bad choices" and "it's because of culture". The discussion nearly always ends up with the right wing trying to prove that poor blacks and Hispanics have some kind of moral failing. The debate you're talking about happens, and is subsequently short-circuited, constantly.

 

[Fisher]

...

I, and many others, talk about poverty as the cause of violent crime all the time. Such discussions are usually met with "poor people are the way they are because they make bad choices" and "it's because of culture". The discussion nearly always ends up with the right wing trying to prove that poor blacks and Hispanics have some kind of moral failing. The debate you're talking about happens, and is subsequently short-circuited, constantly.

Then what is your proposed path out of the abyss?

 

[specklebang]

99.99% of people never commit an act of violence. That .001% that are too crazy to be civilized are inevitably going to do some harm. There is no way to eliminate this and I am grateful that the proportion of this is so small. Sure, it gets big press but it is minuscule in comparison with the majority who go quietly about their lives.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Just an observation. This discussion is a good discussion and pretty much on target. Guns are not the issue... or at least not the major issue. There are societal issues that are the real problem... poverty, mental illness, access to services, etc... However comments like these are comments that automatically derail the discussion:

Because the leftist autocratic faction isn't willing to engage in an honest debate

Why liberals can't take a page from his book is beyond me.....

See what you did? Your presentation sucks. You automatically created a defensive atmosphere by making dumb partisan hack accusations. And what did you get? Here's one:

The discussion nearly always ends up with the right wing trying to prove that poor blacks and Hispanics have some kind of moral failing.

Make a stupid partisan hack comment, and you will turn a potentially good discussion into a stupid partisan one.

How about you guys try to drop the partisanship for a moment and actually discuss the issue, REASONABLY?

 

[apdst]

Violence is a behavior which leads to gun related crime. While it may be true that if NO gun existed, there would be no gun related deaths, it doesn't address the root of our societal problem, which is behavior.

One thing we all have in common is a desire to see tragedies like Sandy Hook prevented in the future. Senseless shootings and the loss of innocent life is an horrific tragedy. That being said, many people are concerned about steps being taken that 1. Dont have any real impact on such violence, and 2. Violate the freedoms of ALL Americans.

Behavior should be addressed once and for all. I'll have the courage to give my opinion after looking through hundreds of research studies and countless pages of statistics.

The vast majority of gun related violence occurs in America's 50 largest metropolitan areas. In fact, in these cities, there are more than 17 gun related deaths per 100,000 people, while the national average is just 5 gun related deaths per 100,000 people. Taking a closer look at the demographics, I learned that White males, ages 10-19, had a homicide rate of 6 shooting deaths per 100,000 people. Black males, ages 10-19, had a homicide rate of 50 shooting deaths per 100,000 people. Statistics show that upwards of 76% of ALL gun related homicides are committed by black males between the ages of 10-26.

This is literally a "hands off" topic for sooooo many people. But I'll give my own opinion anyway. If it's a discussion we need to have as a nation, then perhaps we are discussing the wrong issues when it comes to "guns". Why doesn't it make sense to address such statistics? 76% of all gun related homicides are committed by a very narrow segment of our society. What does that tell us? But the problem is, too many people are afraid of engaging this topic out of fear of being called "racist". It's a damn tragedy, and we refuse to address it because of political correctness and fear. We would rather diminish our nation's Constitution than confront the elephant in the room and run the risk of offending someone.

Outreach, education, funding? What is effective? Why are the rates of homicide so lop sided? What is causing this? Why are homicide rates so much higher in cities? These are the questions we need to be answering. I have my own opinions on why the numbers are so lopsided, but let's hear everyone else's.

Because the anti-gunners want to ban guns, not tackle criminal activity. If they went after the criminals, there wouldn't be any gun crimes to exploit for political purposes.

 

[Paschendale]

Then what is your proposed path out of the abyss?

Better education, better infrastructure, better wages, decriminalizing drugs... There's a good start.

 

[Fisher]

Just an observation. This discussion is a good discussion and pretty much on target. Guns are not the issue... or at least not the major issue. There are societal issues that are the real problem... poverty, mental illness, access to services, etc... However comments like these are comments that automatically derail the discussion:





See what you did? Your presentation sucks. You automatically created a defensive atmosphere by making dumb partisan hack accusations. And what did you get? Here's one:



Make a stupid partisan hack comment, and you will turn a potentially good discussion into a stupid partisan one.

How about you guys try to drop the partisanship for a moment and actually discuss the issue, REASONABLY?

Is calling people partisan hacks the touchy-feely approach? Just curious.

 

[apdst]

...

I, and many others, talk about poverty as the cause of violent crime all the time. Such discussions are usually met with "poor people are the way they are because they make bad choices" and "it's because of culture". The discussion nearly always ends up with the right wing trying to prove that poor blacks and Hispanics have some kind of moral failing. The debate you're talking about happens, and is subsequently short-circuited, constantly.

And the Libbos always take the oppurtunity to play the race card.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Is calling people partisan hacks the touchy-feely approach? Just curious.

It's calling a spade a spade. If you want a reasonable discussion about an issue that has merit, present it in a way that gives it credibility. If you just want to bash the other side, don't expect a reasonable discussion... since you would not be creating one.

 

[apdst]

Better education, better infrastructure, better wages, decriminalizing drugs... There's a good start.

Poor people get the same access to those things as everyone else in the country.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

And the Libbos always take the oppurtunity to play the race card.

And we can always count on apdst to further the partisan hackery in any discussion.

 

[Moot]

My opinion on it is simple--Welfare. Concentrate low-income blacks into government housing projects, give them just enough to survive on but punish them by taking that away if they make any effort to start up the ladder, and what you have left is idle people left to their own devices in an otherwise unstructured environment. My criticism with welfare isn't that it exists, but that it is surrounded by a cliff with no realistic pathways out for those who are the most dependent on the system because of the lingering effects of codified racism and segregation. People pass the time drinking, drugging, and fighting because to get a minimum wage job might cost you the roof over your head.

UMMM, Republicans reformed the welfare system back in 1996. So not only are your criticisms extremely outdated and uninformed, but you've lost credibility as well.

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jack Fabulous]

...

I, and many others, talk about poverty as the cause of violent crime all the time. Such discussions are usually met with "poor people are the way they are because they make bad choices" and "it's because of culture". The discussion nearly always ends up with the right wing trying to prove that poor blacks and Hispanics have some kind of moral failing. The debate you're talking about happens, and is subsequently short-circuited, constantly.

If you want to talk about the poverty cycle you really need look no further than single parent statistics.

Children in single-parent families by race - Data Across States - KIDS COUNT Data Center

Non-Hispanic White 25%
Black or African American 67%
American Indian 53%
Asian and Pacific Islander 17%
Hispanic or Latino 42%
Total 35%

If people want to call this a "moral failing" I guess it's kind of hard to argue. Not the words that I would choose but there is definitely a "failing" of some sort going on with statistics this high. Poverty breeds crime and violence, this is true. Single parent homes breed poverty, also true.

 

[justabubba]

If you want to talk about the poverty cycle you really need look no further than single parent statistics.

Children in single-parent families by race - Data Across States - KIDS COUNT Data Center

Non-Hispanic White 25%
Black or African American 67%
American Indian 53%
Asian and Pacific Islander 17%
Hispanic or Latino 42%
Total 35%

If people want to call this a "moral failing" I guess it's kind of hard to argue. Not the words that I would choose but there is definitely a "failing" of some sort going on with statistics this high. Poverty breeds crime and violence, this is true. Single parent homes breed poverty, also true.

clearly a symptom of the behavior problem
but does a physician treat the symptom or the actual illness

 

[Fisher]

Better education, better infrastructure, better wages, decriminalizing drugs... There's a good start.

I think it requires changing the welfare rules first. The welfare system punishes any effort to accumulate wealth when you are in feet first. Families are broken apart and not allowed to live in the same units once things happen like kids reach a certain age or a grandchild is born. Accumulating traceable cash will get you booted off some or all benefits so the underground drug/crime economy is encouraged by the set up. And it sounds racist to say it, but the black community IMO has been mislead by people like Jesse Jackson when they should have been listening to people like Bill Cosby. There are zero clean hands on the issue--left, right, middle, black, white--are all tangled up in this mess as thick as thieves. To me, people need to focus on themselves and their families as best they can and the rules need to be loosened to encourage savings and reward work instead of punishing it. Education is useless unless you have a very unique skill/talent that lets you leap out of the hole, and not that many poor people will have that opportunity as things are.

 

[Masada]

It's calling a spade a spade. If you want a reasonable discussion about an issue that has merit, present it in a way that gives it credibility. If you just want to bash the other side, don't expect a reasonable discussion... since you would not be creating one.

So it's fine if you call a spade a spade, but if we call a spade a spade, it's not ok, and is subject to harsh verbal reprimands from Captain Courtesy....lol....Riiiiiiiight

My opinions are my own. Ignore them, and address the actual facts and stats I've posted throughout this forum on the subject. But when 98% of blacks support liberals, it's pretty safe to say that "liberalism" has played a role in black culture. Not an unfair assessment in my opinion.....but hey, maybe you think people's politics don't effect their lifestyles....who knows?

 

[Paschendale]

I think it requires changing the welfare rules first. The welfare system punishes any effort to accumulate wealth when you are in feet first. Families are broken apart and not allowed to live in the same units once things happen like kids reach a certain age or a grandchild is born. Accumulating traceable cash will get you booted off some or all benefits so the underground drug/crime economy is encouraged by the set up. And it sounds racist to say it, but the black community IMO has been mislead by people like Jesse Jackson when they should have been listening to people like Bill Cosby. There are zero clean hands on the issue--left, right, middle, black, white--are all tangled up in this mess as thick as thieves. To me, people need to focus on themselves and their families as best they can and the rules need to be loosened to encourage savings and reward work instead of punishing it. Education is useless unless you have a very unique skill/talent that lets you leap out of the hole, and not that many poor people will have that opportunity as things are.

Sounds good in theory, but what actual changes would you make?