Why are American Blacks Still So Poor/Prone to Crime?

[Moderate Right]

You make outstanding points. Anything that can be even minimally associated as "soft on crime" is a political death sentence for an incumbent politician.

Any change in attitude would have to come from the voters, and yeah, I know that's not bloody likely anytime soon.

Absolutely killed Michael Dukakis.

 

[Mach]

You make outstanding points. Anything that can be even minimally associated as "soft on crime" is a political death sentence for an incumbent politician.
Any change in attitude would have to come from the voters, and yeah, I know that's not bloody likely anytime soon.

Thanks. And add to that the irony that Republicans ALSO claim that we should have far less government (I assume that means criminal laws/prisons, etc.) interference, but on this issue, it's much harder than say...taxes, to get them to shrink it

We need show a link between fixing the criminal justice part, leading to lower welfare/crime I guess. Good luck to us...

 

[Cephus]

I'm a believer in the orphanage system. Take these ferel kids out of the drug and alcohol compromised homes at an early age, and get them the hell out of the culture at all costs.

I agree to a certain degree, especially since the foster care system is so ridiculously overcrowded. I'm all for people having kids if they want, but they have to actually take care of them and raise them to be useful members of society and far too often these days, that simply doesn't happen. They're animals raising animals.

 

[Cephus]

I don't necessarily agree. The uber left has solutions. Problem is their solutions are the same old and tired and failed solutions they've always had.

But they're not useful solutions. They're not solutions that actually solve the problems.

 

[jdog]

And are those rules still in place? Because if they're not, then it is no longer a factor.

Yes they are, but that is not even the issue. The fact is that the black population was more prosperous before the Welfare programs, and before forced desegregation for that matter. The Welfare state is directly responsible for the majority of social problems in the black communities. It changed the entire culture over the 40 or 50 years it existed as the Welfare State.

 

[Mach]

Yes they are, but that is not even the issue. The fact is that the black population was more prosperous before the Welfare programs, and before forced desegregation for that matter. The Welfare state is directly responsible for the majority of social problems in the black communities. It changed the entire culture over the 40 or 50 years it existed as the Welfare State.

I posted a crap ton of study data above that doesn't mention that.

Where is your data, please tell me it's more than a single person who wrote a book, that's also not surprisingly light on data?

Also, racial segregation is an indicator for lower income/higher crime. Which is mostly the SE (same places that held slaves...they stay with their own, and those happen to be extremely poor parts of the country, they never really did recover from the slave days in those southern states.)

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't necessarily agree. The uber left has solutions. Problem is their solutions are the same old and tired and failed solutions they've always had.

Offering (endless?) rewards for personal economic, social and educational failure are unlikely to eliminate that failure.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I say you should cite credible sociology or criminal justice research and not suggest from the armchair how to change society for the better on the matter of black crime. Well, not really, I think you should chit chat about whatever you like...but don't expect it's serious or wonder why it's not taken seriously, right?

"anti victim" memes are for the likes of 4chan, reddit, and random forum posts, not for any serious discussion.

Everything that might be true is for serious discussion, your attitude is appropriate only after my ideas are defeated.

I have spent a good part of my life around victims, both those who recovered to some degree and those who let the abuser effectively end their lives....or rather effectively ended their own lives even as they blamed others for their choices...those who put on the coat of victimhood that was offered so strongly to them only to have that coat imprison them.

I have lots to say here, I will not tolerate quietly your dismissal and condescension,

 

[chuckiechan]

I posted a crap ton of study data above that doesn't mention that.

Where is your data, please tell me it's more than a single person who wrote a book, that's also not surprisingly light on data?

Also, racial segregation is an indicator for lower income/higher crime. Which is mostly the SE (same places that held slaves...they stay with their own, and those happen to be extremely poor parts of the country, they never really did recover from the slave days in those southern states.)

Black society although lower middle class for most part, was crushed by President Johnsons "Great Society" requirement that there would be no welfare allowed for two parent homes.

 

[Jaygodmedia]

Who do you believe that scripture applies to?

Looking through out history and you tell me who spread lies and murders?

 

[Jaygodmedia]

You don't disagree. Interesting. Your "culture" is a joke.

Yes the joke is on you. As you wish to be what you will never become. Continue to live in your world of lies and deceit by your nature it is when you belong.

 

[Removable Mind]

They do. The ones, by and large, who have gotten their asses off the reservation are doing much, much better. So what's their excuse?

I'm sure that they pulled themselves up by the moccasins. No other explanation. The rest are apparently just losers. How's that work?

 

[Parrish]

The obvious answer is White Americans are to blame.

 

[EvaPeron]

You claim that a race is inferior. How is that not racism? Have you seen the definition?

And your IQ test crap is BS. IQ tests don't transcend circumstances. But you don't know anything about IQ tests, do you.

A race can be inferior based upon the standards which judge superiority. For instance, if tall people were considered superior in a society then perhaps asians who tend to be shorter in size would be considered inferior. So, measuring someone by their intellect is not in any way racism. Please understand the definition.

 

[EvaPeron]

Race in one way or another is all you talk about. Your obsession with race defines you. I think you believe that when you get to your idea of heaven everyone will be white, even Jesus, who wasn't white.

I wonder, does it ever occur to someone who is talking to a conservative white person if that person had struggles in their life? It seems to me that in the last two years all we assume is that all whites are privileged and all others are discriminated against. Would it surprise some to know that many white people had very similar life experiences to those of other colors and ethnic groups? Would it even matter?

 

[phattonez]

I wonder, does it ever occur to someone who is talking to a conservative white person if that person had struggles in their life? It seems to me that in the last two years all we assume is that all whites are privileged and all others are discriminated against. Would it surprise some to know that many white people had very similar life experiences to those of other colors and ethnic groups? Would it even matter?

Given how this has gone unreported for years, what do you think?

 

[VanceMack]

The Altnet article actually sights the study here...

APHA Study

By the American Public Health Association. If you actually look at the study, you will see they are dead on.

Wait you are actually trying to say Time Magazine, is being intentionally deceptive? LMAO!

I notice you completely ignored the last one after dismissing the Altnet article out of hand, and blaming Time Magazine for being deceptive.

Since you want to try and obfuscate rather than actually addressing the data. here is the results of the survey from the last article...

https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUH-DetTabs2014/NSDUH-DetTabs2014.pdf



Don't need to obviously. I already refuted them, and now you.

:lamo

Dood...I was on my phone. I took the time to look up two of your sources and saw jusy how flawed they were. Did YOU actually read them or did you google something to make a point and figure...**** it...the title says all I need to know... and post it?

Like I said...Im not contending that there arent problems...just that those sources are far from helpful to your point.

 

[VanceMack]

Looking through out history and you tell me who spread lies and murders?

Your citation of scripture. Who do you think it applies to?

 

[Black Dog]

:lamo

Dood...I was on my phone. I took the time to look up two of your sources and saw jusy how flawed they were. Did YOU actually read them or did you google something to make a point and figure...**** it...the title says all I need to know... and post it?

Like I said...Im not contending that there arent problems...just that those sources are far from helpful to your point.

Those sources are fine, did you actually look at the sources? The data or did you just completely dismiss them out of hand like I said? I mean seriously you are claiming Time Magazine, is trying to pull off some kind of deception. As I said did you even bother to look at the 3rd one you just keep ignoring? As for the first article the source data backs up everything I said.

The sources are fine. I think your statement is full of ****.

First article...

According to the study’s findings recently published in the American Journal of Public Health, abuse and dependence on "hard drugs" (opiates, amphetamine, etc.) are “less common among delinquent African American youth than those who are non-Hispanic white.”

The study was conducted over the course of 12 years and interviewed 1,829 youth (1,172 males and 657 females between the ages of 10 to 18) who were detained at Cook County Juvenile Temporary Detention Center in Chicago between 1995 and 1998.

Researchers interviewed the participants in the study up to nine times through the course of their 20s. In that time, findings revealed that the odds of non-Hispanic white youths using cocaine were 30 times higher than African Americans. Hispanic participants trailed slightly behind, showing 20 times the odds of cocaine use compared to their African-American brethren.

Yep backs up what I said.

“Our goal is to alert people to the burden of drug problems and also to how some of our concern about who has these problems may not be true,” says Dr. Dan Blazer, senior author of the study and a professor of psychiatry at Duke University. “There’s a perception among many individuals that African Americans as a group — regardless of socioeconomic status — tend to abuse or use drugs at higher rate and this [does not support] that.”

Using data from 72,561 youth interviewed for the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, researchers found that 37% of those aged between 12 and 17 had used alcohol or other drugs at least once in the past year. Nearly 8% met criteria for a substance use disorder — either the less severe “substance abuse” diagnosis or the more problematic “substance dependence,” which is more commonly known as addiction.

The study, which was published Monday in the Archives of General Psychiatry, controlled for variables like socioeconomic status because rates of severe drug problems tend to be greater amongst the poor. Despite this, Native American youth fared worst, with 15% having a substance use disorder, compared to 9.2% for people of mixed racial heritage, 9.0% for whites, 7.7% for Hispanics, 5% for African Americans and 3.5% for Asians and Pacific Islanders. - Study: Whites More Likely to Abuse Drugs Than Blacks | TIME.com

Well looks like the Times article was not only straight forward, but again backs up exactly what I said.

White people do more drugs; people of color do more time in jail for drugs—and that’s just one of the nasty discrepancies highlighted by a recent National Survey on Drug Use and Health. While people of color are far more commonly prosecuted and incarcerated for drug-related offenses in the U.S., the data reveals that white folk are more likely to have experimented with narcotics.

With one notable exception, more white Americans continue to experiment with serious drugs like cocaine or non-medical use prescription drugs during their lifetime than African Americans. Additionally, a higher percentage of white Americans reported having tried crack, hallucinogens, cocaine, marijuana, or prescription drugs than Latinos or Hispanics. - White People Do More Drugs, Black People Serve More Time - Vocativ

You might want to get your phone and eyes looked at for accuracy.

 

[Risky Thicket]

I wonder, does it ever occur to someone who is talking to a conservative white person if that person had struggles in their life? It seems to me that in the last two years all we assume is that all whites are privileged and all others are discriminated against. Would it surprise some to know that many white people had very similar life experiences to those of other colors and ethnic groups? Would it even matter?

Fair question, Eva. In the context of this thread I was referring to phatonnez.

Yes, of course their are white people who have had very difficult times just as there are other colors and ethnic groups who have had or are having difficult times. The one clear difference is that in addition to financial and employment difficulties people who are not white must also deal with systemic bigotry and racism.

 

[VanceMack]

Those sources are fine, did you actually look at the sources? The data or did you just completely dismiss them out of hand like I said? I mean seriously you are claiming Time Magazine, is trying to pull off some kind of deception. As I said did you even bother to look at the 3rd one you just keep ignoring? As for the first article the source data backs up everything I said.

The sources are fine. I think your statement is full of ****.

First article...


You might want to get your phone and eyes looked at for accuracy.

The altnet article is a blog written with an obvious bias that doesnt get out of its own way before the first sentence.
"By now we can all agree that the real target of Reagan’s enduring war on drugs was never drugs, it was African Americans." 1, the War on Drugs was initiated by Nixon in 71. It was continued by Carter. Reagan responded to demands by black American community leaders to address the problem of the growing crack epidemic. Clinton throughout his 8 year presidency INCREASED incarcerations.

Further...the comments about incarceration rates are completely unrelated to the topic of drug use. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/piusp01.pdf Yes...the report states it ESTIMATES 1 in 3 black males, 1in Hispanic males, and 1 in 17 white males will go to prison "at some point in their life" but that has zero to do with drug use and everything to do with the continuing rate of crime committed by those respective groups. The study also shows that black females are incarcerated at a rate that is considerably less than white males (1.7 to 2.6).

Finally...the study cited (actually...the abstract which doesnt tell the whole picture) reference people given an actual clinically diagnosed substance abuse disorder. It does not indicate raw numbers or actual prevalence of use. Thats not even a little bit shocking considering the disparity between the races of individuals submitting for mental health treatment that would actually receive a substance abuse diagnosis. Historical studies indicate blacks are less likely to receive treatment or even diagnosis for mental health disorders. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3928067/Resiliency factors also come into play...for many black Americans life is expected to suck...so when it does it is painful but not debilitating, whereas white Americans tend to be impacted more by perceived lesser events. Thats also seen in suicide rates.

So thats the first article.

 

[Mach]

Black society although lower middle class for most part, was crushed by President Johnsons "Great Society" requirement that there would be no welfare allowed for two parent homes.

Any time you can find credible research to back this, feel free. Until then, this is like most Republican proclamations from up high...just fantasy designed to sway the rabble.

 

[VanceMack]

Those sources are fine, did you actually look at the sources? The data or did you just completely dismiss them out of hand like I said? I mean seriously you are claiming Time Magazine, is trying to pull off some kind of deception.

White people do more drugs; people of color do more time in jail for drugs—and that’s just one of the nasty discrepancies highlighted by a recent National Survey on Drug Use and Health. While people of color are far more commonly prosecuted and incarcerated for drug-related offenses in the U.S., the data reveals that white folk are more likely to have experimented with narcotics.

With one notable exception, more white Americans continue to experiment with serious drugs like cocaine or non-medical use prescription drugs during their lifetime than African Americans. Additionally, a higher percentage of white Americans reported having tried crack, hallucinogens, cocaine, marijuana, or prescription drugs than Latinos or Hispanics. - White People Do More Drugs, Black People Serve More Time - Vocativ

You might want to get your phone and eyes looked at for accuracy.

The times article...

1-it is based on a questionnaire and not actual raw numbers. https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/d...015/NSDUH-DetTabs-2015/NSDUH-DetTabs-2015.pdf The study itself acknowledges limitations and bias AND it indicates a large percentage of the minority population isnt collected or is in fact excluded because they 'arent comparable'. Its a helllalong read...but worth at least diving into. Again...SURVEY RESPONDENTS. All things considered...what do you suppose might be the problem with presenting that as a 'definitive' result? (answering the survey honestly, being in a school setting or environment to even answer the questions in the first place, being willing to participate in a survey...stop me if you see any concerns or problems). Further...even survey findings vary year to year...these are the 2013 breakdowns (the Times article was written in 2011).

Results from the 2013 NSDUH: Summary of National Findings, SAMHSA, CBHSQ
But it IS true that whites are more likely to use and abuse prescription drugs by a MUCH larger factor.

At the end of the day...Im not sure what this dance is trying to prove. Even your last article stretches to ridiculous conclusions. More whites DO DRUGS in total. Yes. Yet more African Americans are sent to prison for drug related offenses. YES...offenses like distribution. More white Americans do drugs but more African Americans are sent to prison for POSSESSION. Yes...POSSESSION is a key element of evidence in arrests for distribution of drugs. Blacks have traditionally been sentenced more for crack sales and distribution. YES....because crack use is actually higher among black Americans than white Americans AND black Americans are far more likely to distribute and possess crack than white Americans.
NAACP | Criminal Justice Fact Sheet

 

[Mach]

Everything that might be true is for serious discussion, your attitude is appropriate only after my ideas are defeated.

Hawkeye10, I hate to tell you, but that's not true. You are literally claiming that the burden of proof is on me, to prove your claim wrong.
As is always the case, now and forever, you will need to first demonstrate it with some real evidence, before it can be really debated or analyzed.

I have spent a good part of my life around victims, both those who recovered to some degree and those who let the abuser effectively end their lives....or rather effectively ended their own lives even as they blamed others for their choices...those who put on the coat of victimhood that was offered so strongly to them only to have that coat imprison them.

Cool story bro. Is that what this is? Is that what the enlightenment era was to you, a battle of anecdotes that magically lead many years later to putting a man on the moon or eradicated polio?

I have lots to say here, I will not tolerate quietly your dismissal and condescension,

You are free to say whatever it is you like. But I think you should know, and anyone reading should know, that without evidence to back your claim, and something as far reaching and nuanced as "the racial disparity of crime in the United States", you've not made any credible claim, nor refuted the mountain of evidence presented and trivially looked up.

Worse, I've given you a lot of credible research, and there are countless more papers and journals we can pull right now....but you don't read them and don't respond to them. You haven't refuted a single piece of evidence or claim that I made. So who is dismissing who here? It seems you dismiss the evidence, and advance your belief based on no evidence.

That's called faith. Reason, requires evidence. Faith does not.

 

[chuckiechan]

Any time you can find credible research to back this, feel free. Until then, this is like most Republican proclamations from up high...just fantasy designed to sway the rabble.

I lived it. You read about it in the liberal press.