Why are American Blacks Still So Poor/Prone to Crime?

[Mach]

So why do I find conflicting statistics?
| National Review

I found that blog too, but look at the table. It's basically the same on prior year and current year, and only on prior month illicit use is their an uptick of what, a few percentage points?

file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/NSDUHresults2013-1.pdf

In 2013, among persons aged 12 or older, the rate of current illicit drug use was 3.1 percent among Asians, 8.8 percent among Hispanics, 9.5 percent among whites, 10.5 percent among blacks, 12.3 percent among American Indians or Alaska Natives, 14.0 percent among Native Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders, and 17.4 percent among persons reporting two or more races. • There were no statistically significant differences in the rates of current illicit drug use between 2012 and 2013 for any of the racial/ethnic groups. Between 2002 and 2013, the rate of current illicit drug use increased from 8.5 to 9.5 percent for whites. Among blacks, the rate increased from 8.7 percent in 2003 and 2004 to 10.5 percent in 2013 (Figure 2.12).

It's just not the sort of difference you'd expect given the incredibly high black drug arrests, convictions, and duration of imprisonment.

But that's just raw data that's very close. I'm surprised its not higher, I would think a population that has such higher poverty and crime and violence, they may naturally self medicate more in part as a direct result.

Since blacks are 200% more likely to live in poverty, is it any surprise they deal from the street and not their suburban apartment or out of their house when their parents are traveling the world leaving them alone in the house (or whatever the examples were in the thread...)?

 

[Cephus]

Sure, but then what if that's not enough?

We'll never know until we try it but I don't think we'll try it any time soon. Conservatism, true conservatism, not the pseudo-liberal, hyper-religious neo-cons that infest the GOP, builds nations. Liberalism tears them down. That's what we have right now, a nation in decline because liberals are in charge. So long as that's true, we're doomed.

 

[phattonez]

I found that blog too, but look at the table. It's basically the same on prior year and current year, and only on prior month illicit use is their an uptick of what, a few percentage points?

file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/NSDUHresults2013-1.pdf


It's just not the sort of difference you'd expect given the incredibly high black drug arrests, convictions, and duration of imprisonment.

But that's just raw data that's very close. I'm surprised its not higher, I would think a population that has such higher poverty and crime and violence, they may naturally self medicate more in part as a direct result.

Since blacks are 200% more likely to live in poverty, is it any surprise they deal from the street and not their suburban apartment or out of their house when their parents are traveling the world leaving them alone in the house (or whatever the examples were in the thread...)?

So let's say that drug use rates are similar (though since these studies seem to be based on self-reporting, I'm a little iffy), why then do we have the disparity? I've brought up recidivism and plea deals as explanations. What do you say?

 

[Hawkeye10]

I found that blog too, but look at the table. It's basically the same on prior year and current year, and only on prior month illicit use is their an uptick of what, a few percentage points?

file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/NSDUHresults2013-1.pdf


It's just not the sort of difference you'd expect given the incredibly high black drug arrests, convictions, and duration of imprisonment.

But that's just raw data that's very close. I'm surprised its not higher, I would think a population that has such higher poverty and crime and violence, they may naturally self medicate more in part as a direct result.

Since blacks are 200% more likely to live in poverty, is it any surprise they deal from the street and not their suburban apartment or out of their house when their parents are traveling the world leaving them alone in the house (or whatever the examples were in the thread...)?

Victim Culture is wrong that this bad stuff visits their lives like a virus, that they had nothing to do with it....if they got educated, stopped doing crime and violence, and stopped supporting others around them doing crime and violence and staying stupid their lives would likely be significantly better.

I say that they should try it.

 

[phattonez]

Victim Culture is wrong that this bad stuff visits their lives like a virus, that they had nothing to do with it....if they got educated, stopped doing crime and violence, and stopped supporting others around them doing crime and violence and staying stupid their lives will likely be significantly better.

I say that they should try it.

Personally I'm not really bothered by the high drug arrest rate because I think that it's a reflection of the high violent crime rate. If that wasn't there then I would be more outraged about disparity in drug arrests.

 

[Cephus]

So let's say that drug use rates are similar (though since these studies seem to be based on self-reporting, I'm a little iffy), why then do we have the disparity? I've brought up recidivism and plea deals as explanations. What do you say?

To be honest, I think it's because large swaths of black people see themselves as inherently outsiders. They are a nation within a nation. They have no reason to follow our laws or pay attention to our social standards, but they expect us to cater to their whims, hand out checks and treat them like they're special. They need to be dissuaded from this belief system. I just don't think that's going to happen while we have so many people on the political left who agree with them.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Personally I'm not really bothered by the high drug arrest rate because I think that it's a reflection of the high violent crime rate. If that wasn't there then I would be more outraged about disparity in drug arrests.

OK, but my point is that I am done listening to whining about their situation when underclass blacks are not doing much if anything to improve their situation, when a lot of what they complain about they and other blacks are the ones committing the bad acts. Since they act like they dont give a **** I dont either. If they should change their minds then so will I.

 

[Hawkeye10]

To be honest, I think it's because large swaths of black people see themselves as inherently outsiders. They are a nation within a nation. They have no reason to follow our laws or pay attention to our social standards, but they expect us to cater to their whims, hand out checks and treat them like they're special. They need to be dissuaded from this belief system. I just don't think that's going to happen while we have so many people on the political left who agree with them.

"Victim" is the correct word here.

But guess what, how they see themselves is up to them.

 

[Cephus]

Victim Culture is wrong that this bad stuff visits their lives like a virus, that they had nothing to do with it....if they got educated, stopped doing crime and violence, and stopped supporting others around them doing crime and violence and staying stupid their lives would likely be significantly better.

I say that they should try it.

Of course they should, but they won't so long as the political left is patting them on the head and telling them that nothing is their fault and they deserve free stuff because... slavery.

 

[Cephus]

"Victim" is the correct word here.

But guess what, how they see themselves is up to them.

Sure it is, but I still think they see themselves more as outsiders who get to make their own rules and live by their own standards, than victims. I think the victimhood narrative comes more from the political left, who us just using them as a dedicated voting bloc, than actually caring what happens to them.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Sure it is, but I still think they see themselves more as outsiders who get to make their own rules and live by their own standards, than victims. I think the victimhood narrative comes more from the political left, who us just using them as a dedicated voting bloc, than actually caring what happens to them.

They both end up at "We dont have to do the work, or pay for anything, because we are "special"", but I assure you that decades of trying to convince them that they are victims has worked...that is the driver of the problem now.

 

[Hawkeye10]

There is one thing that I am still trying to understand, I am not sure that I get it yet........inner city blacks till the 80's stayed in the area and stayed in the church after they made it, usually these being the ones who had both the smarts and the will to get educated and thus partake of the American dream. That abruptly stopped, all of the sudden they moved to the burbs and either stopped going to church or they went to majority white churches in the burbs which welcomed them, and they had a huge pick of them. BUT, they keep voting D.

Why is that?

I say that it looks like how the feminists successfully argue to women who managed to grow up and take care of themselves that the law must treat women as children, must look after them with special rights and advantages because they are too weak to take care of themselves. The feminists argued "Sure you dont need this, but a lot of your sisters do, we have to do this for them, we have an obligation to look after and to help them".

I think that non underclass blacks vote D almost to a person because while they did give up on and abandon the lower class blacks this one last betrayal they cant bring themselves to do, to not support their victim minders the democrats.

But maybe I am wrong.

thoughts?

 

[chuckiechan]

Sure there is. Hold the people within that culture to the same standards as everyone else. Stop making excuses for them. Stop giving them leniency. Stop telling them that their circumstances are not their fault. In other words, stop paying any attention to liberals.

I'm a believer in the orphanage system. Take these ferel kids out of the drug and alcohol compromised homes at an early age, and get them the hell out of the culture at all costs.

 

[Black Dog]

So why do I find conflicting statistics?

| National Review

National review? Yea what a great source. You find conflicting reports because you would rather use fake news sites who pander to a political ideal.

No dodge. What you're not realizing is that prosecutors can often avoid trial by getting a defendant to plead guilty. Since drug offenses carry mandatory minimums, it's often easier to get a defendant to plead guilty to a drug charge than to go to trial. Do you know what percentage of cases end with a plead deal? Around 97%.

Why Innocent People Plead Guilty | by Jed S. Rakoff | The New York Review of Books

Oh I am so sorry. When I was a police officer, I failed to realise this![/end sarcasm]

That has little to do with sentencing. Why don't you actually read what I posted instead posting nonsense.

Further, consider recidivism.

This chart came from? Stormfront or American Renaissance, lol.

 

[phattonez]

National review? Yea what a great source. You find conflicting reports because you would rather use fake news sites who pander to a political ideal.

Oh this should end well.

Oh I am so sorry. When I was a police officer, I failed to realise this![/end sarcasm]

That has little to do with sentencing. Why don't you actually read what I posted instead posting nonsense.



This chart came from? Stormfront or American Renaissance, lol.

Like I thought. This is fruitless. Have a nice day.

 

[Black Dog]

If you read those cited articles objectively you will recognize they are completely and ridiculously biased and don't At all reflect what their headlines are purporting. The altnet article....it's just ridiculous. But the Times article is intentionally deceptive. It cites the level of incarceration for drug crimes...not for drug use, then goes on to talk about percentages of drug use...two entirely unrelated categories.

That's not to say there is t disparity in sentencing and problems in the 'war in drugs'.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Altnet article actually sights the study here...

APHA Study

By the American Public Health Association. If you actually look at the study, you will see they are dead on.

Wait you are actually trying to say Time Magazine, is being intentionally deceptive? LMAO!

I notice you completely ignored the last one after dismissing the Altnet article out of hand, and blaming Time Magazine for being deceptive.

Since you want to try and obfuscate rather than actually addressing the data. here is the results of the survey from the last article...

https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUH-DetTabs2014/NSDUH-DetTabs2014.pdf

Sorry post some evidence to refute them and not your opinion

Don't need to obviously. I already refuted them, and now you.

 

[Black Dog]

The only reason more whites are dealing is because whites outnumber blacks 5:1 at 63% of the US population. You might want to look at the comparison of percentages after you take this into account. Whites come down dramatically in the percentages after you include all the numbers and facts.

Then please feel free to post these number and "facts" you are taunting. So far you have shown, nothing.

How many of these blacks have had prior judgments before the hammer finally came down?. Have you researched priors before or after you linked these one sided links?

Well post the evidence that says different. Or do I have to school you again?

 

[Black Dog]

Oh this should end well.

Because you have no argument? I guess that is true.

Like I thought. This is fruitless. Have a nice day.

Rather than show were the table came from (like a table with no link means anything) you leave?

OK. Did not expect much else.

 

[ecofarm]

To be honest, I think it's because large swaths of black people see themselves as inherently outsiders. They are a nation within a nation. They have no reason to follow our laws or pay attention to our social standards, but they expect us to cater to their whims, hand out checks and treat them like they're special.

Yeah, that's not racist.

Citation? None, of course. Just racist rhetoric.

 

[radcen]

For the political left, their only "solution" is to stop paying attention to the problem and hoping it will go away.

I don't necessarily agree. The uber left has solutions. Problem is their solutions are the same old and tired and failed solutions they've always had.

 

[Mach]

So let's say that drug use rates are similar (though since these studies seem to be based on self-reporting, I'm a little iffy), why then do we have the disparity? I've brought up recidivism and plea deals as explanations. What do you say?

Disparity in incarceration/sentencing/etc? That's widely reported.

Most of its long and nuanced and boring...soundbites like "it's a crime, they choose to do it!" has that libertarian-esque simplicity appeal...it's also not at all reality.

If law enforcement is measured on convictions, going to poor urban areas, often filled with black youth, is like fish in a barrel.
How would you do the same in a nice white suburban neighborhood? Knock door to door isn't OK...undercover? How much time would that take and cost, vs just cruising the projects? And even if they could scare up a few arrests, people with money won't stand idly by when cops "harass" their kids, they will fight it to the bitter end. My jimmy had rich kid syndrome, etc. Poor inner city kids brought up for arrest?...Well everyone knows the drill....

It all compounds as well. Do that for a while and why would that community trust the cops, when they cops jail their kids and fathers at rates unseen in any white area...as a minority, in white america...how can they think its anything BUT racism? When it's probably not really racism entirely (as described above)..it will look like racism to any typical person in the community.

But a more comprehensive discussion I found here:

The Color of Justice: Racial and Ethnic Disparity in State Prisons | The Sentencing Project
This details that the disparity is alarming and not disputed (obviously). Remember, if Whites had some alarming negative trend/statistic like this, it would probably have been caught and corrected before it set in for generations. With blacks, as a minority, its just well, you know black people right? (not even racist, more prejudice due to the statistics and a disparity in black people of means to raise awareness, etc)

Policy and Practices
1973 era policies of mass imprisonment, longer sentences, and more punishable offenses.
Drug laws that see blacks at 4x the arrest and 2.5x for possession (some of which is above, + crack, etc.)
Policy stop and frisk of blacks, not whites
pre-trial detention more likely because of income inequality, and pre-trial detention leads to longer convictions and prison terms
Habitual offender laws charge black defendants more than white

Implicit Bias
Psychology of seeing a black man vs white man and perceiving them as more dangerous and more threatening, and more violent.
Media portrayal, black on white crime making headlines

Structural Disadvantage
Poverty, unemployment, and housing differences in race,
Raised in an environment of the above (all of the above), predisposes black children to perceive and commit crimes differently.
==============

Of course, what do most Republicans say about reducing sentencing and habitual criminal laws and drug laws? In threads on that, they seem to think it's bleeding heart liberals that are releasing evil back into society...hardly the type of climate that is conducive to correcting our system.

 

[Mach]

Victim Culture is wrong that this bad stuff visits their lives like a virus, that they had nothing to do with it....if they got educated, stopped doing crime and violence, and stopped supporting others around them doing crime and violence and staying stupid their lives would likely be significantly better. I say that they should try it.

I say you should cite credible sociology or criminal justice research and not suggest from the armchair how to change society for the better on the matter of black crime. Well, not really, I think you should chit chat about whatever you like...but don't expect it's serious or wonder why it's not taken seriously, right?

"anti victim" memes are for the likes of 4chan, reddit, and random forum posts, not for any serious discussion.

 

[radcen]

I'm not sure what to do about it either, but I would at least like to be able to address it without being called racist.

Every time some of us try to talk about an actual possible solution, or even some sort of improvement, a select few run in and scream "Racist!"... yet offer absolutely nothing of value to the conversation in the way of new ideas.

 

[Mach]

I don't necessarily agree. The uber left has solutions. Problem is their solutions are the same old and tired and failed solutions they've always had.

I don't know, i think many new solutions involve laws and training related to discrimination, for starters. But its hard for politicians to be soft on crime. It's even harder if they are doing it to be pro-black, when most cities are majority white. And harder still when conservatives often hold a very harsh and often unrealistic view of how criminal justice works and should work (lock'em up for life, they are degenerates, etc.) I mention that last point knowing that if we dig around, we can find a number of such posts on the forums. Most of that isn't necessarily white racism...it's just that notion that if your own culture doesn't have the issue...why the hell should we "make our streets less safe" for a minority that has a "bad culture"? All of that means real reform is slow at best.

 

[radcen]

I don't know, i think many new solutions involve laws and training related to discrimination, for starters. But its hard for politicians to be soft on crime. It's even harder if they are doing it to be pro-black, when most cities are majority white. And harder still when conservatives often hold a very harsh and often unrealistic view of how criminal justice works and should work (lock'em up for life, they are degenerates, etc.) I mention that last point knowing that if we dig around, we can find a number of such posts on the forums. Most of that isn't necessarily white racism...it's just that notion that if your own culture doesn't have the issue...why the hell should we "make our streets less safe" for a minority that has a "bad culture"? All of that means real reform is slow at best.

You make outstanding points. Anything that can be even minimally associated as "soft on crime" is a political death sentence for an incumbent politician.

Any change in attitude would have to come from the voters, and yeah, I know that's not bloody likely anytime soon.