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Who's to blame for the slow recovery?

It's a case of 'just right'.
This a BS argument, you cannot imply "Clinton deregulated, it was the mentality of his admin", "it caused the bubbles"...imply it was a liberal belief.....and then say "well, we cons don't want anarchy, we want it to be just right", a false Goldilocks fairy tale.

The point is, dereg has been a neo-liberal (read CONSRVATIVE) policy/ideology. There is no point in trying to say "no-no-no, I'm not arguing for NO regulations", it is a strawman. If you don't like the dereg under Clinton, then you don't like neoliberal economics, and I have seen nothing from you that supports that.


Frank Dodd has NOT been implemented, and ANYONE arguing it has any sort of "end result" does not know anything about it.
 
The fundamental problem I see here is the lack of acknowledgement of the simple fact that government doesn't produce added value, in an economic sense.
Sure....other than limiting to a large extent major economic disasters since WWII.....well....that is until...neoliberals were able to break the Glass.
 
We aren't in a recession. According to Mr Keynes theory, we should currently be running a surplus, and saving the extra.
You know we are in an extended recovery....because Keynes was not used. And where did you ever get the idea that we should be running a surplus NOW?
 
Denial so deep, it is neither the topic of this thread, nor worth my time. Do please feel free to continue to live in your fact free liberal bubble.

I accept yer weak and pathetic surrender.

government doesn't produce added value, in an economic sense.

Public schools, colleges, and universities don't add economic value? Job training programs? Publicly funded research facilities and transportation infrastructure? National and state parks?
 
This a BS argument, you cannot imply "Clinton deregulated, it was the mentality of his admin", "it caused the bubbles"...imply it was a liberal belief.....and then say "well, we cons don't want anarchy, we want it to be just right", a false Goldilocks fairy tale.

The point is, dereg has been a neo-liberal (read CONSRVATIVE) policy/ideology. There is no point in trying to say "no-no-no, I'm not arguing for NO regulations", it is a strawman. If you don't like the dereg under Clinton, then you don't like neoliberal economics, and I have seen nothing from you that supports that.


Frank Dodd has NOT been implemented, and ANYONE arguing it has any sort of "end result" does not know anything about it.

I beg to differ. While true, they are still writing the regulations surrounding Dodd-Frank (which should be a big red flashing dire warning sign already), the impact on the banking industry is clearly felt, massive consolidation of local banks being acquired by big banks to become ever bigger 'too big to fail' banks, giving us a less diverse, less robust, monoculture banking industry, even more susceptible to bubbles. Remember, it wasn't the smaller local banks that needed TARP bail out, it was the big banks, so why are we allowing the elimination of the local banks which didn't cause us any trouble? Makes no sense.

Should these ever bigger 'too big to fail' banks ever get caught in a bubble, the bail out they'll require will likely bankrupt the nation.
 
I accept yer weak and pathetic surrender.

No, I'm just tired of you excessively lengthy posts with so much inaccurate in them, it's overwhelming, and besides that, it's not the topic of this thread, is it?

Public schools, colleges, and universities don't add economic value? Job training programs? Publicly funded research facilities and transportation infrastructure? National and state parks?

No, they don't. Not according to the economic definition provided by the citation.
 
Sure....other than limiting to a large extent major economic disasters since WWII.....well....that is until...neoliberals were able to break the Glass.

Even a fully intact Glass-Steagall wouldn't have staved off the mortgage bubble, if that's what you were referring to.
 
I'm just tired of you excessively lengthy posts with so much inaccurate in them

You could choose to respond to the elements you find most egregious.

>>besides that, it's not the topic of this thread, is it?

You brought up the CRA, or whatever it is yer surrendering over.

>>Not according to the economic definition provided by the citation.

The first two words of that article are, "In business … ." How do you feel? No economic value from those gubmint activities? Gubmint isn't business.
 
You know we are in an extended recovery....because Keynes was not used. And where did you ever get the idea that we should be running a surplus NOW?

Because we are not in a recession. Keynes himself (unlike many of those who claim to be his followers today) argued that we should run (and save) surpluses when we weren't in recession, in order to have funds to deficit-spend when we were.
 
Because we are not in a recession. Keynes himself (unlike many of those who claim to be his followers today) argued that we should run (and save) surpluses when we weren't in recession, in order to have funds to deficit-spend when we were.
I don't know which is more stupid, making claims about what Keynes theorized when you have no clue....... or believing that since we are not in a gdp decline lasting more than a few months, then we are in a period of where we can post surpluses.

Tell me, where in the hell did you pick up on these Keynes binary states of the economy? Charles Murray perhaps? RJ Samuelson?
 
I beg to differ. While true, they are still writing the regulations surrounding Dodd-Frank (which should be a big red flashing dire warning sign already)
DOOD, Dodd Frank has not been fully implemented as it was written, stop with the notion that they are "adding to it".
the impact on the banking industry is clearly felt, massive consolidation of local banks being acquired by big banks to become ever bigger 'too big to fail' banks, giving us a less diverse, less robust, monoculture banking industry, even more susceptible to bubbles.
Yer confusing "consolidation" with many exist and few de novo entrants....and the results say new regulation is having little effect on new entrants.


But again, yer pushing for less regulation, after blaming deregulation.
Remember, it wasn't the smaller local banks that needed TARP bail out, it was the big banks, so why are we allowing the elimination of the local banks which didn't cause us any trouble? Makes no sense.
"Elimination": the exiting of small bank from the broader market.

Should these ever bigger 'too big to fail' banks ever get caught in a bubble, the bail out they'll require will likely bankrupt the nation.
Nice rhetoric, TARP, a loan, nearly "bankrupt the government" too, I suppose. Look, I'm all for breaking up large institutions, I'm not quite sure how......but again, it is funny to see a dereg guy......demand regulation......to break up the big banks.
 
Even a fully intact Glass-Steagall wouldn't have staved off the mortgage bubble, if that's what you were referring to.
Says the guy who objected to "Clinton" deregulation!


But of course, I did not expect you would address the larger issue of Federal Banking in relation to bank runs/depressions since WWII......I suppose the idea of looking back prior to WWI would be too tough.
 
Because we are not in a recession. Keynes himself (unlike many of those who claim to be his followers today) argued that we should run (and save) surpluses when we weren't in recession, in order to have funds to deficit-spend when we were.

Completely agree. I think the most effective way to achieve this given the current budget is to raise taxes.

I'd also like to see some additional spending, i.e. infrastructure jobs, but to a lesser magnitude than the tax increases.
 
Who knows why the timing of the bubble bursting?

Bursting??? I have shown you the timeline and trend of it inflating.

I don't pretend to.

You do.

Some critical mass of toxic assets in the system coupled with an economic downturn. Everyone leveraged to the hilt in hopes of hitting big easy money.

The housing crisis precipitated the economic downturn.
 
The fundamental problem I see here is the lack of acknowledgement of the simple fact that government doesn't produce added value, in an economic sense. There are only 3 ways that you produce added value, you grow it, you dig it out of the ground, or you manufacture it. Government does none of these things, ergo, government doesn't produce added value, ergo government is overhead. Overhead needed for running a society.

Do not misconstrue that government doesn't do things that are valuable, it does. Essential, yes, that too. But it doesn't produce value added. So it's a value sink, and not a value source in the economic scheme of things.

What is overhead, and what is added value? No society can exist without transportation links, that's a given. So American Airlines, FedEx, Greyhound(or other entities identical in purpose and configuration) can all be considered overhead, not added value, but necessary infrastructure? You uber-right folks love your guns and frontiersman image, and can take care of yourselves, so are police forces overhead or added value? Police can be either public or private, and there are differing sets of problems with each, but which is it- value added, or just a drain on the private sector? There are private schools that charge a lot of money to turn out educated professionals, undoubtedly needed for running society, and there are heavily subsidized public schools that do the same. Overhead, or are they adding value?

Try another little thought experiment if this seems an abstraction. Let's say some wacky future government decides to privatize all present government services- police, prisons, the military, etc. It then nationalizes all previously private endevours. Your local Starbucks becomes the peoples stimulant outlet no. 66771. So now who is paying the bills? Are you now going to grouse about those hard working mailmen and prison guards, whose taxes are going to support extras like restaurants, coffee shops, and cell phone makers, necessary yes, but really just a drain on society? You see where this is going, do you not?

Your idea that value must be dug up, grown, or manufactured is quaintly 19th century in outlook. In today's world the most lucrative businesses produce the most abstract services. Facebook, Microsoft, Google.....they are all pretty far from agriculture and smokestack industry. Most goods and services today can function equally within the public or private sphere, although there is a spectrum with some functions becoming problematic at either end. A private army doesn't work too well, although is not impossible. The peoples stimulant outlet no. 66771 is not an entity I'd hold my breath on, although there is no essential economic reason why it could not exist.

Apply the calculations to the government, I think you'll see it more clearly. Government is simply society's overhead costs. And as such, should be limited, reduced at every turn, ruthlessly controlled.

I know. All those concepts are probably foreign to you when applied to government. Pity really.

I'd say it is pretty clear that government provides a number of very desirable services that would have to be shouldered by private industry if they did not exist. In other words, they add value to society, and have worth. If you want to get ruthless with government, and push more of such into the private sector, well that is quite doable, but not without its set of problems. How have private prisons done in the US? Would you like Blackwater doing security in your neighbourhood? We hardly need mention the US medical system, where just on the news today, a firm making "Epipens" (preloaded syringes filled with a $1 drug that counters the effects of extreme allergic reaction) has bumped up the price from $50 to $600. You may have to look at a few dead kids lying beside a half eaten peanut butter sandwich, but oh- the profits! They're adding value.....but not to society.
 
Bursting??? I have shown you the timeline and trend of it inflating.



You do.



The housing crisis precipitated the economic downturn.

I believe there was an economic downturn which started it, and then the bubble bursting fed it to become worse.
 
I believe there was an economic downturn which started it, and then the bubble bursting fed it to become worse.

Did you not attempt to read the chart previously provided?

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Furthermore, all the evidence points to the housing market collapse being the main contributor to the economic downturn.
 
I believe there was an economic downturn which started it, and then the bubble bursting fed it to become worse.

The housing market began collapsing in 2007. The recession began in 2008. Check your facts.
 
No, I'm just tired of you excessively lengthy posts with so much inaccurate in them, it's overwhelming, and besides that, it's not the topic of this thread, is it?



No, they don't. Not according to the economic definition provided by the citation.

That is MMI's MO. Have lengthy hard to read posts with a bunch of gibberish and cherry picked facts mixed in with a bunch of delusions that are hard to respond to without hitting a character limit due to his wordy posts and then when we get tired of it all he declares that we have given our pathetic surrender. He makes the longest posts of anyone on here on a regular basis and then when others offer up evidence to dispute his biased rubber stamp liberal agenda he calls it irrelevant or something else and claims that he doesn't take reading assignments when there is no reading assignment larger than any of his posts.
 
Because we are not in a recession. Keynes himself (unlike many of those who claim to be his followers today) argued that we should run (and save) surpluses when we weren't in recession, in order to have funds to deficit-spend when we were.

These liberals don't even know what recession means. One of them recently said that our mere 20 trillion dollar national debt was the result of being a deficit hawk and called our deficits austerity.
 
Completely agree. I think the most effective way to achieve this given the current budget is to raise taxes.

I'd also like to see some additional spending, i.e. infrastructure jobs, but to a lesser magnitude than the tax increases.

We do need to raise taxes but we need to make sure that anyone over the poverty line is paying something, not zero, and the rich should pay more than they do now. The purpose of tax increases should be to help shore up the deficit. Far left liberals, of which you do not appear to be, want to tax just the rich more while 43% pay zero and then they want to take 100% of those increased tax revenues and spend 125% of it. I agree that if the economy is growing we are not in a recession. It's stupid to argue that. I'm a big believer that slow steady growth is better for the economy long term than fast growth is. However, we can increase the paltry growth we have now but we don't need to deficit spend in order to do it.
 
The housing market began collapsing in 2007. The recession began in 2008. Check your facts.

There was an economic slowdown just prior to the financial crisis.
 
We do need to raise taxes but we need to make sure that anyone over the poverty line is paying something, not zero, and the rich should pay more than they do now. The purpose of tax increases should be to help shore up the deficit. Far left liberals, of which you do not appear to be, want to tax just the rich more while 43% pay zero and then they want to take 100% of those increased tax revenues and spend 125% of it. I agree that if the economy is growing we are not in a recession. It's stupid to argue that. I'm a big believer that slow steady growth is better for the economy long term than fast growth is. However, we can increase the paltry growth we have now but we don't need to deficit spend in order to do it.

You are aware that income taxes are not the only taxes nor is it the sole source of federal tax revenue?
 
We do need to raise taxes but we need to make sure that anyone over the poverty line is paying something, not zero, and the rich should pay more than they do now. The purpose of tax increases should be to help shore up the deficit. Far left liberals, of which you do not appear to be, want to tax just the rich more while 43% pay zero and then they want to take 100% of those increased tax revenues and spend 125% of it. I agree that if the economy is growing we are not in a recession. It's stupid to argue that. I'm a big believer that slow steady growth is better for the economy long term than fast growth is. However, we can increase the paltry growth we have now but we don't need to deficit spend in order to do it.

Aren't there two parts to government spending? Taxation revenue is one part, the spending is the other part.

Since Obama got his tax hike through, seems logical the next step would to reduce government spending, especially on stupid stuff, like the shrimp on a treadmill.
 
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