Who Are the Real Insurrectionists?

[fmw]

The last three sentences reflect my analysis, sure. But what is babble about the facts,that preceded them? Trump spews fantasies about elections. Some of his supporters lap it up. Any request for evidence is partisan babble or some other dismissive phrase. Put up or shut up goes the old saying.

Obviously it isn't you that is going to put up or shut up.

 

[fmw]

this is a proven lie

Not only do you fail to understand what an investigation is but now you call me a liar. Won't see you around.

 

[rahl]

Not only do you fail to understand what an investigation is but now you call me a liar. Won't see you around.

I've proven your statement was a lie. I've given you dozens and dozens of investigations, and their findings. It's not even remotely debatable. So, the statement "There were no investigations" remains a proven lie.

 

[The Baron]

She disobeyed a lawful order?

What was the order?

She had been warned.

A lie. She was not even in the same room with the "cop". People were yelling. And there is no evidence that the "cop" ever said anything.

She lunged towards the officers.

A lie. She started climbing through the window. She was not even in the same room with the "cop".

She was shot.

Yes. Unarmed and in cold-blood.

Now, if you call that murder,

I do.

And so would any other clear-thinking individual.

 

[Nickyjo]

I agree. Nobody was murdered here though.

By definition and law, no it wasn't.

By defnintion and law, no he wasn't.

By definition and law, no he didn't.

Belief has no relevance here. It's objective legal reality.

yes

If they breach a secured govn't facility where congressmen are being held for safety, against the explicit orders of LEO? sure.

Someone climbing through your window, is by definition inside your home.

Yes, windows are part of houses.

She had breached the window into the room.

Irrelevant.

She was breaching a secured location against the explicit orders of LEO. She as most certainly a thread to the congressmens safety. It's why she was shot.

no woman was murdered.

Can we agree that this is wrapped up in our politics, involving what we think the woman was objecting to, whom the cop was protecting, the emotions stirred up (in my view irresponsibly) by Trump, etc? I imagine the officer regrets what happened, but by the de facto rules of our society, this gets marked down with all the police shootings that have been questioned, and even civilian actions as that of Travon Martin and the Kenosha killings by Rittenhouse, even going back to the OJ and Rodney King incidents. What we believe and opine about the events will be affected, even at times overwhelmed, by where we sit politically.

 

[Fledermaus]

As evidenced by the fact that they have already justified it?

Yea, I know.

Still murder is murder however you justify it.

It wasn't murder.

Stop saying stupid things.

 

[Fledermaus]

What was the order?

A lie. She was not even in the same room with the "cop". People were yelling. And there is no evidence that the "cop" ever said anything.

A lie. She started climbing through the window. She was not even in the same room with the "cop".

Yes. Unarmed and in cold-blood.

I do.

And so would any other clear-thinking individual.

Lawful order... STOP.

She was breaching the barricade between violent insurrectionists and Congress members.

In the act of breaching she was shot and fell backwards into fellow insurrectionists.

The one gunshot stopped fellow insurrectionists from entering.

Mission accomplished.

No murder.

 

[Fledermaus]

Can we agree that this is wrapped up in our politics, involving what we think the woman was objecting to, whom the cop was protecting, the emotions stirred up (in my view irresponsibly) by Trump, etc? I imagine the officer regrets what happened, but by the de facto rules of our society, this gets marked down with all the police shootings that have been questioned, and even civilian actions as that of Travon Martin and the Kenosha killings by Rittenhouse, even going back to the OJ and Rodney King incidents. What we believe and opine about the events will be affected, even at times overwhelmed, by where we sit politically.

Politics don't trump facts...

The fact is that the final barricade was breached and the officer fired in defense of the Congress members he was sworn to protect.

Thems the facts.

 

[Fledermaus]

Not only do you fail to understand what an investigation is but now you call me a liar. Won't see you around.

He didn't call you a liar.

He pointed out a lie.

 

[primaryKey]

I do.

And so would any other clear-thinking individual.

What exactly are the rules of engagement between Capitol police dealing with a riotous mob that has already breached the capital and is actively pushing against LEOs trying to barricade doors with their bodies? Keep in mind that at this point the officers are already aware from radio comms that officers have been injured and likely killed by the rioters.

I don't know, but I can say that from what I've seen in video footage from the comfort of my living room I'm absolutely shocked that more people weren't shot on Jan 6. The unbelievable restraint of the police was, in my opinion, more than the rioters deserved given the beatings they collectively bestowed on the LEOs protecting the Capitol and Gov't officials in the building. LEOs were defending themselves and others from a violent mob. Everyone in the mob fighting against the LEOs against those doors gets painted with that same brush - violent mob. To call this one particular person innocent, and hence it a cold-blooded murder in this situation is a bit disingenuous and ignores all context.

 

[Nickyjo]

Obviously it isn't you that is going to put up or shut up.

I put up the facts

An investigation to determine how many mailed ballots were fraudulently submitted. Starting with all of them. On the basis of determining how much fraud existed in the 2020 election. No need to worry. It won't happen.

And we should conduct an investigation just because Trump said so? Where is the probable cause, for want of a better phrase? The people who should know, Trump appointees who had it as part of their job descriptions to know or investigate, said all was well. But they don't count, once they differ with The Donald's version of reality, even Ivanka. Against that we have the "dream team" of Giuliani, Sidney "The Dead Venezuelan Did It" Powell, and was it the Pillow or the Overstock guy? We went through this before in 2016, remember? Trump recently raised $250 million from his sucke... um, faithful, more than enough to investigate.

 

[Nickyjo]

Obviously it isn't you that is going to put up or shut up.

I put up facts. My work is done. Counter them with alternate facts, to coin a phrase.

 

[Nickyjo]

Politics don't trump facts...

The fact is that the final barricade was breached and the officer fired in defense of the Congress members he was sworn to protect.

Thems the facts.

You won't get any argument from me. This is all just so sad, starting with Trump's irresponsibility, and the gullibility of people who should have known better than to believe him, rather than buy the fanciful, inaccurate vision of our country he viciously preached.

 

[WillyPete]

A lie. She was not even in the same room with the "cop". People were yelling. And there is no evidence that the "cop" ever said anything.

Assuming you claim is true (that there's no audio recorded, and no witnesses to anything the officer said) your review boards, courts and juries are going to take the sworn officer's word over some dead rando protestor that was trying to undermine the barricade.

Ashli was using a tried and true method of breaching barricades, a variation on the human shield, an apparently unarmed woman presenting no clear threat forces her way through, daring them to shoot her. If they arrest her, that's at least one less person covering the barricade, and I bet she could keep two or three busy, and then the barricade is gone.

Here's the kicker. In a righteous uprising, if they shoot her, the rest of the crowd is supposed to go wild, and redouble it's efforts, so it's a win-win. Instead they fled.

You see? Ashli's martyred herself, and at the same time demonstrated her "team" wasn't worth being a martyr for.

 

[CLAX1911]

If you call a mob braking into the Capitol to disrupt an election process, where the mob overwhelmed the authorities, took away their weapons and used them on them, going after the VP while chanting to hang him, where several deaths occurred, including a member we of the mob disobeying a lawful order and lunged at an officer getting shot and killed…all caught on camera…if that is your definition of a “mild riot”….

Then please refer to BLM protests, the Freddie Gray riots and such as “mild public disturbances”.

Only one death occurred. From the videos I saw the authorities were not overwhelmed they seemed to be holding the doors open and guiding them through.

BLM riots not protests went on for months thousands of police were injured and way more people were killed.

That's why you have to lie about the capital riot and pretend anybody but babbitt was killed because you don't want to address the insurrection on your side.

That's why I think pelosi didn't order more security and why the FBI hasn't done anything to ray Epps. They wanted this to distract from the riots they were supporting.

They wanted a show trial to pretend they give a crap about this

 

[Nickyjo]

Only one death occurred. From the videos I saw the authorities were not overwhelmed they seemed to be holding the doors open and guiding them through.

BLM riots not protests went on for months thousands of police were injured and way more people were killed.

That's why you have to lie about the capital riot and pretend anybody but babbitt was killed because you don't want to address the insurrection on your side.

That's why I think pelosi didn't order more security and why the FBI hasn't done anything to ray Epps. They wanted this to distract from the riots they were supporting.

They wanted a show trial to pretend they give a crap about this

Only Pelosi didn't order more security? And McConnell did?

The two sets of events are different, not only in the number of injuries, but also in their objectives, their instigator(s), and their contexts. Why do some people on the right not see the difference? Jan 6, though no more inexcusable than the riots you mention, was as qualitatively different from them as what OJ and Lee Harvey Oswald were accused of. What is wrong with noticing that?

 

[CLAX1911]

Only Pelosi didn't order more security? And McConnell did?

The two sets of events are different, not only in the number of injuries, but also in their objectives, their instigator(s), and their contexts. Why do some people on the right not see the difference? Jan 6, though no more inexcusable than the riots you mention, was as qualitatively different from them as what OJ and Lee Harvey Oswald were accused of. What is wrong with noticing that?

You guys are just utterly consumed with this and I'm happy for that because it's going to cost you in November. That is of course if the Republicans don't screw it up.

 

[fmw]

I put up facts. My work is done. Counter them with alternate facts, to coin a phrase.

I also put up facts. There have been no investigations of 2020 voter fraud.

 

[fmw]

He didn't call you a liar.

He pointed out a lie.

He pointed out what he called a lie from my post. Same thing.

 

[Fledermaus]

Only one death occurred. From the videos I saw the authorities were not overwhelmed they seemed to be holding the doors open and guiding them through.

BLM riots not protests went on for months thousands of police were injured and way more people were killed.

That's why you have to lie about the capital riot and pretend anybody but babbitt was killed because you don't want to address the insurrection on your side.

That's why I think pelosi didn't order more security and why the FBI hasn't done anything to ray Epps. They wanted this to distract from the riots they were supporting.

They wanted a show trial to pretend they give a crap about this

Violent insurrectionists were bashing in the final barricade between the Congress people and the mob.... No one there was opening doors for the rioters. That is where Miss Darwin win the award.

Your CONSPIRACY THEORY level thinking is rather silly.

 

[Fledermaus]

He pointed out what he called a lie from my post. Same thing.

You can repeat a lie someone else presented and it doesn't make you THE liar.

However, If the shoe fits....

 

[Fledermaus]

I also put up facts. There have been no investigations of 2020 voter fraud.

Your OPINION is noted.

And laughed at.

 

[Nickyjo]

You guys are just utterly consumed with this and I'm happy for that because it's going to cost you in November. That is of course if the Republicans don't screw it up.

Of course we are. The whole thing was a horrifying but supremely interesting event, unprecedented, and deeply revealing. Jan 6 is the Catholic feast of the Epiphany, when Christ was reveled to the non-Jewish world, in the form of the Magi who visited him as a baby. Appropriate. The word epiphany means "manifestation," apparently from words that mean "on" and "display." On that day we had the clearest epiphany of Trumpism, with much of what The Donald stood for on display, a great bookend to a presidency that began with similar chaos at airports four years earlier. It included so many aspects of Trump's message and style: among other things, a lie, a refusal to accept an election result for the third or fourth time, a betrayal of an ally (Pence), and a call to violence (cf. his suggesting police not be so gentle, that his crowd punch hecklers, etc.). How could his time in office end any differently?

Who would not be fascinated by such an event? When my kid and his friends ask me what the tumultuous 1960s were about, I tell them to watch "Bonnie and Clyde" and "Cool Hand Luke" to get a sense of the rebellious spirit of the age. When and if I am blessed with grandchildren, and if they were to ask me to describe the Trump presidency, I will likely tell them to read about or view the events of Jan 6 to get a sense it it.

 

[CLAX1911]

Of course we are.

That's the point of a distraction.

 

[Nickyjo]

That's the point of a distraction.

Not at all. There's precedent for political junkie-ness, at least in me. I had a night job driving a cab in 1973 in NYC. Came home 3-4 am, slept a few hours, and watched Chairman Sam Ervin and company during the Watergate hearings. Bought all the papers. True, this scandal doesn't have as many colorful characters as the Nixon gang did, but it's early, and Cassidy Hitchinson will do for now as a John Dean: calm, collected and credible. You would have to combine Flynn, Powell and Giuliani to make up one batshit crazy G. Gordon Liddy, however, though Rudy does fairly well by himself. The SS texts won't match the Nixon tapes, but it appears a few of the texts have a mysterious disappearing quality, reminiscent of the 40-minute gap that Nixon secretary I Rosemary Woods might have deleted. And just today, I was reminded on TV of Trump's quote that "When somebody is president of the United Stares, the authority is total." That will surely remind other old-timers of the Nixon line to David Frost, "well, when the president does it, it's not illegal."

No apologies.