White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine

[Rogue Valley]

White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine

Ukraine MiG-29

3.5.22
The U.S. remains in discussions with Poland to potentially backfill their fleet of fighter planes if Warsaw decides to transfer its used MiG-29s to Ukraine. The ongoing talks, as President Volodymyr Zelenskyy pleads with Congress for help, underscore the frantic push to find weapons to equip Ukrainian forces as they continue to fight off the massive Russian invasion. As Poland weighed sending its warplanes to Ukraine last week, Warsaw asked the White House if the Biden administration could guarantee it would provide them with U.S.-made fighter jets to fill the gap. The White House said it would look into the matter.The Biden administration didn’t oppose the Polish government giving Kyiv the MiGs, which could potentially escalate tensions between NATO and Moscow. Poland, for now, has held on to its fighter jets. Several Eastern European countries like Poland, Bulgaria, and Slovakia retain dozens of Russian-made aircraft in their inventories and have been hesitant to give up those planes without guarantees from the U.S. that they could replace them.

Poland has been modernizing its aircraft fleet since 2006, when it first started flying F-16s, and in 2020 signed a $4.6 billion deal for 32 F-35s, the first of which will arrive in 2024, making those older Russian-made planes expendable. The White House has “in no way opposed Poland transferring planes to Ukraine,” the spokesperson added, pointing out how difficult an operation it would be to get the planes into Ukraine. Russian officials have pledged to attack any convoys carrying weapons entering the country. The on-again, off-again effort to get MiGs into Ukraine started last weekend, when European Union security chief Josep Borrell made the startling announcement that several countries would soon ship fighter jets to the border for transfer to Ukraine’s armed forces. Ukrainian officials told POLITICO at the time that several of their pilots had already arrived in Poland for the handoff, but the deal stalled out. Bulgaria and Slovakia also rejected the idea, and the Ukrainian pilots left empty-handed.

Seems like the US talks with allies about replacement jets are still underway. Ukraine really needs all available MiG/Sukhoi fighter jets.

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

 

[ttwtt78640]

White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine

Ukraine MiG-29




Seems like the US talks with allies about replacement jets are still underway. Ukraine really needs all available MiG/Sukhoi fighter jets.

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

This idea would be OK if countries A, B and C decided to give militarily aid (in he form of their aircraft) to Ukraine, but goes way over the line when it’s actually the US giving 150% (or more) of that aid.

It’s like farmers in those countries saying that they will give their old (outdated) tractors away to help farmers in Ukraine, but will only do so if the US (taxpayer) agrees to give them newer (and much better) tractors. In other words, those pretending to be doing the charitable giving are actually getting far more than they are giving.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Some of us members were all sitting around the table with a couple retired F-15 & F-16 pilots yesterday at the golf course and they said it typically takes about 100 hours seat time, with additional classroom theory to cross over to other fighter jet platforms. Of course it depends on the platform that they flew before making the transition.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

This idea would be OK if countries A, B and C decided to give militarily aid (in he form of their aircraft) to Ukraine, but goes way over the line when it’s actually the US giving 150% (or more) of that aid.

It’s like farmers in those countries saying that they will give their old (outdated) tractors away to help farmers in Ukraine, but will only do so if the US (taxpayer) agrees to give them newer (and much better) tractors. In other words, those pretending to be doing the charitable giving are actually getting far more than they are giving.

That may be so but swapping your driving skills from a 20 yr old tractor to a new model isn’t the same thing as swapping your flying skills from a Mig-29 to an F16.

 

[snakestretcher]

Getting those aircraft to Ukraine is going to be difficult; in order for NATO countries to avoid Putin claiming 'acts of war' by flying them in, they would need to be dismantled and transported overland, ironically leaving them vulnerable to air attack.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That may be so but swapping your driving skills from a 20 yr old tractor to a new model isn’t the same thing as swapping your flying skills from a Mig-29 to an F16.

I agree, but the idea that I would donate my (well used) 2002 vehicle to charity if (and only if?) I was handed a 2020 vehicle as a replacement is not exactly being generous.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

they would need to be dismantled and transported overland

Ukrainian pilots could fly them over from Poland? Or the craft could land near the Polish border and be pushed across.

not exactly being generous.

Agreed, but it’s not just the piloting skills that will make this work and if I wanted my pilots up in the air ASAP, I’d go for the older craft that they are used to - especially as spares and mechanic support won’t require yet more transfers.

 

[snakestretcher]

Ukrainian pilots could fly them over from Poland? Or the craft could land near the Polish border and be pushed across.



Agreed, but it’s not just the piloting skills that will make this work and if I wanted my pilots up in the air ASAP, I’d go for the older craft that they are used to - especially as spares and mechanic support won’t require yet more transfers.

No, flying them over would be technically involving NATO, and that would be the beginning of a wider European conflict with Russia; which is why we're anxious not to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, despite Zelensky's wishes.

 

[Rogue Valley]

This idea would be OK if countries A, B and C decided to give militarily aid (in he form of their aircraft) to Ukraine, but goes way over the line when it’s actually the US giving 150% (or more) of that aid.

I don't blame Poland for wanting to be recompensed for sophisticated fighter jets removed from its arsenal.

Unfortunately, neither Ukraine nor the US has any MiGs just parked and collecting dust somewhere.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't blame Poland for wanting to be recompensed for sophisticated fighter jets removed from its arsenal.

Unfortunately, neither Ukraine nor the US has any MiGs just parked and collecting dust somewhere.

OK, but how much is something “just parked and collecting dust somewhere” worth? My point is that charitable giving by Poland is far different than what is being proposed.

 

[snakestretcher]

I don't blame Poland for wanting to be recompensed for sophisticated fighter jets removed from its arsenal.

Unfortunately, neither Ukraine nor the US has any MiGs just parked and collecting dust somewhere.

Yes. Poland has only 23 MiG29 in service. Russia has over 400.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

flying them over would be technically involving NATO

Not if it’s Ukrainian pilots flying them. And if they are pushed / pulled over a land border by Ukrainians then NATO has nothing to do with it.

You know there’s a land border between Poland and Ukraine right?

 

[Rogue Valley]

OK, but how much is something “just parked and collecting dust somewhere” worth?

My comment was about if there are any MiGs collecting dust in the Arizona desert. The US has many aircraft collecting dust out weat.

The Poles do indeed use their MiGs.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Such a decision would be a Polish sovereign decision, not a NATO decision.

 

[trouble13]

Getting those aircraft to Ukraine is going to be difficult; in order for NATO countries to avoid Putin claiming 'acts of war' by flying them in, they would need to be dismantled and transported overland, ironically leaving them vulnerable to air attack.

Here's what I don't understand.

Why a the west allowing Putin to set the parameters. Why not tell him that any attacks on our convoy by them will be viewed as an act of war against the entire world. Then start transporting in the planes and dare him to strike.

 

[ouch]

Stay with this, West! Do everything possible to insert whatever fighting equipment and supplies into secured areas of Ukraine until better plans with how to defeat the Putin Russians in Ukraine comes to tuition.

 

[maxparrish]

Here's what I don't understand.

Why a the west allowing Putin to set the parameters. Why not tell him that any attacks on our convoy by them will be viewed as an act of war against the entire world. Then start transporting in the planes and dare him to strike.

It isn't necessary to convoy in fighters. Ukrainian pilots have already sought to pick up the MIGs in donating countries and fly them to whatever bases they use. Once they cross the border they will be responsible for defending themselves, if need be.

As far as parts and other equipment, however arms are shipping into Ukraine NOW would be the method used for support euipment.

 

[trouble13]

It isn't necessary to convoy in fighters. Ukrainian pilots have already sought to pick up the MIGs in donating countries and fly them to whatever bases they use. Once they cross the border they will be responsible for defending themselves, if need be.

As far as parts and other equipment, however arms are shipping into Ukraine NOW would be the method used for support euipment.

The Ukraine people have every right to be pissed off at the western world.

 

[maxparrish]

I agree, but the idea that I would donate my (well used) 2002 vehicle to charity if (and only if?) I was handed a 2020 vehicle as a replacement is not exactly being generous.

This isn't a test of Poland's generosity; this is a method of getting help to Ukraine. If that is the goal, all this belly aching over who is being generous is pointless.

And, by the way, the Mig 29s make up 1/3rd of Poland's fighters. They are modernized and as capable as the F-16, which US test pilots have attested to. For Poland to give up to a 1/3rd of its fighters and not expect their near-term NATO replacement is nuts.

 

[maxparrish]

The Ukraine people have every right to be pissed off at the western world.

Yes the do have every right. To think of the years of stingy aid and feckless lure of NATO to a country that would never be allowed in was a major reason for their current agony.

 

[maxparrish]

The Ukraine people have every right to be pissed off at the western world.

White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine


Ukraine MiG-29

Seems like the US talks with allies about replacement jets are still underway. Ukraine really needs all available MiG/Sukhoi fighter jets.

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine

There is an excellent article by Alexander Vindman and Dominic Cruz Bustillos in the journal Foreign Policy. I realize some conservatives don't think well of Vindman because of his role in questioning Trump's phone conversation with Zelinski. But whatever your feelings, he and his co-author are spot on regarding Ukraine.

America Must Do More to Help Ukraine Fight Russia

A Lend-Lease Plan for the Ukrainian Military​

By Alexander Vindman and Dominic Cruz Bustillos​

March 6, 2022

In recent years, the world has been locked in a struggle between democracy and resurgent authoritarianism. Ukraine’s victory over Russia could prove to be a turning point in this struggle.

Washington and its allies should establish a lend-lease program modeled on the one that provided arms and assistance to U.S. allies in Europe during World War II. This program would allow the United States and other NATO members to loan or give aid to Ukraine at little or no cost; such aid could include medium- and long-range air defense systems, antitank weapons (beyond the Javelins that have already been provided), advanced extended-range antiarmor capabilities, coastal defense systems, high mobility artillery, and critically important UCAVs. Kyiv could also benefit from systems that could be leased from the United States and its allies, albeit with the understanding that the weapons and equipment would not necessarily be returned after the war.

it ought to supply Ukraine with the tools it needs to control the skies itself, including ones that would allow Ukraine to strike Russian warehouses or staging areas holding aircraft, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles beyond Ukraine’s borders. This would include UCAVs with air-to-surface and air-to-air capabilities, as well as fighter jets, such as the MiG-29s and Su-25s that Bulgaria, Poland, and Slovakia had proposed to transfer to Ukraine before backtracking for reasons that remain unclear. (Unconfirmed media reports suggest that Washington may have pressured those countries to reverse course.) If NATO members express concerns over transferring fighter jets because of potential gaps in their own air defenses, then the United States and NATO should step in to provide donors with advanced air defense capabilities and more modern fighters, with corresponding training.

The long-term aim of a lend-lease arrangement would be to create stockpiles of military aid along Ukraine’s borders. Ideally, any time Ukraine would submit a request for support, the necessary materiel would be readily available for transport rather than subject to a lengthy procurement process. ...

America Must Do More to Help Ukraine Fight Russia

A lend-lease plan for the Ukrainian military

www.foreignaffairs.com

 

[Rogue Valley]

There is an excellent article by Alexander Vindman and Dominic Cruz Bustillos in the journal Foreign Policy. I realize some conservatives don't think well of Vindman because of his role in questioning Trump's phone conversation with Zelinski. But whatever your feelings, he and his co-author are spot on regarding Ukraine.

Former Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman and twin brother Lt. Colonel Yevgeny "Eugene" Vindman were born in Ukraine.

 

[snakestretcher]

Here's what I don't understand.

Why a the west allowing Putin to set the parameters. Why not tell him that any attacks on our convoy by them will be viewed as an act of war against the entire world. Then start transporting in the planes and dare him to strike.

Because Putin will strike. Nobody wants an escalation into a European war again-with the very real danger of escalation to a global conflict which could be the end of us all. Putin's actions so far are clear evidence that he does't care.

 

[snakestretcher]

Not if it’s Ukrainian pilots flying them. And if they are pushed / pulled over a land border by Ukrainians then NATO has nothing to do with it.

You know there’s a land border between Poland and Ukraine right?

Being Polish myself, I'm quite aware; but thanks for your interest.

 

[American]

This idea would be OK if countries A, B and C decided to give militarily aid (in he form of their aircraft) to Ukraine, but goes way over the line when it’s actually the US giving 150% (or more) of that aid.

It’s like farmers in those countries saying that they will give their old (outdated) tractors away to help farmers in Ukraine, but will only do so if the US (taxpayer) agrees to give them newer (and much better) tractors. In other words, those pretending to be doing the charitable giving are actually getting far more than they are giving.

Question #1: Does Ukraine have the spares and logistics to support this?