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White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine

Nice
 
snakestretcher said:
Because Putin will strike. Nobody wants an escalation into a European war again-with the very real danger of escalation to a global conflict which could be the end of us all. Putin's actions so far are clear evidence that he does't care.
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Well then just tell the Ukraine to stop fighting because they belong to Russia now
 
During the past week the US has pushed 20,000 Javalins and Stingers into Ukraine.

Although the Polish MiG fighter jets sound like a good idea, they'll be toast if Russia has brought in any S-400 anti-air systems.

Videotape from the town of Irpin north of Kyiv shows Russian missile strikes killing civilians including children.
 
Rogue Valley said:
White House weighs three-way deal to get fighter jets to Ukraine

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Ukraine MiG-29




Seems like the US talks with allies about replacement jets are still underway. Ukraine really needs all available MiG/Sukhoi fighter jets.

U.S. in talks with Poland on deal to send fighter jets to Ukraine
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Let's hope that's the ONLY "three way" they are getting into. :p
 
snakestretcher said:
Provoking him to even greater excess would not be a good idea; unless you think he would cave at the thought of Poland's 23 (twenty three), MiG29s against his 440+.
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I don't think he's crazy, willing-to-risk-it-all person you seem to suggest that he is. If we look at his actions - influencing through media manipulation, cyber warfare with low accountability, invading extremely weak powers with no alliances to their names - Putin appears to only go after the lowest hanging fruit and only in small bites. There is no evidence that he's anxious to start an all-out war in Europe... in fact the evidence points to the contrary. We can't forget what Ukraine is - an economically and militarily insignificant nation with no mutual defense arrangements with anyone, anywhere. Invading Ukraine is "low cost" for Putin. Invading a NATO state would be a completely different thing and so far there is no evidence that he would unilaterally take that step. In fact, with his actions in Ukraine, every NATO nation will be shoring up their eastern borders precisely in anticipation of Russian aggression.
 
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phoenix2020 said:
We can't forget what Ukraine is - an economically and militarily insignificant nation with no mutual defense arrangements with anyone, anywhere.
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Although Ukraine is not a NATO nation, that does not relegate it to impoverishment and ineptitude.

Ukraine's GDP is larger than that of 8 NATO nations and her military is 6th in Europe (PwrIndx Score) and holding its own against a massive Russian invasion force.

What perennially holds Ukraine back is corruption, but that situation is also improving.
 
snakestretcher said:
Being Polish myself, I'm quite aware; but thanks for your interest.
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I suspected you were after talking about your grandfather in a different thread. Don't understand why you couldn't see that Polish Migs could be delivered in different ways to Ukraine's needs though.

My bad if I offended.
 
There is a small department in the Pentagon whose job is to keep track of Russian military hardware around the world.

I hope they are busy now searching for MiG and Sukhoi fighter jets.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I suspected you were after talking about your grandfather in a different thread. Don't understand why you couldn't see that Polish Migs could be delivered in different ways to Ukraine's needs though.

My bad if I offended.
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No offence taken; but you must appreciate that anything Putin perceives as NATO involvement could be extremely dangerous. It's an impossible dilemma just like a no-fly zone would inevitably escalate into a wider, possibly global, conflict once the first Russian aircraft was shot down.
 
Well, the Poland-Rammstein-Ukraine venture for the "29's" has been nixed by the US anyway.
 
The US and Allied response has happened so damn fast. It's been amazing to watch.
 
Chagos said:
nixed by the US anyway
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Yeah, wonder why that happened.

Anyhow I listened to a broadcast today which reminded me - even if Putin defeats Ukraine, holding the country is going to be a whole other ball game. Uf he's running out of money taking the country - paying to control Ukraine will be nigh impossible.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Yeah, wonder why that happened.
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Really?

Flying planes into Ukrainian air space for the purpose of shooting down Russian ones and all of that from a NATO base has you wondering over the implications that would involve?

Poland's proposal was not co-ordinated with anybody else and, had it not been nixed, could well have resulted in direct Russian retaliation upon Poland, triggering article 5.

I have no idea if that would have happened and no idea if it would not, but escalating the current situation is certainly against NATO policy.
Infinite Chaos said:
Anyhow I listened to a broadcast today which reminded me - even if Putin defeats Ukraine, holding the country is going to be a whole other ball game. Uf he's running out of money taking the country - paying to control Ukraine will be nigh impossible.
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Agreed.

Holding down a country of 40 million (or even a sizeable fraction of those all hostile to the Kremlin) is impossible. Only worked in Germany after '45 (thankfully) on account of the broad alliance imposing it on a people that then saw better opportunities than the last 12 years had offered.
 
Chagos said:
Really?
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Yeah, the point was made by an analyst in a lunchtime interview today that the planes were not going to be flown over to Ukraine by Poles or anyone from a NATO country. The upgraded Polish Migs would have had various bits of modern NATO technology stripped out so that Ukrainian pilots would not need much retraining to fly them.

Chagos said:
Flying planes into Ukrainian air space for the purpose of shooting down Russian ones and all of that from a NATO base has you wondering over the implications that would involve?
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What I read being discussed was parking them at a US base in Poland for Ukrainian pilots to come and get them. The analyst argued what difference there was between a donated standard NATO issue stinger missile that has already been used and a donated Russian built Mig with all the NATO tech stripped out.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Yeah, the point was made by an analyst in a lunchtime interview today that the planes were not going to be flown over to Ukraine by Poles or anyone from a NATO country. The upgraded Polish Migs would have had various bits of modern NATO technology stripped out so that Ukrainian pilots would not need much retraining to fly them.



What I read being discussed was parking them at a US base in Poland for Ukrainian pilots to come and get them. The analyst argued what difference there was between a donated standard NATO issue stinger missile that has already been used and a donated Russian built Mig with all the NATO tech stripped out.
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I'd agree that it's difficult to see a difference between stingers (supplied) and MiGs (supplied) but the latter still constitute an escalation that NATO clearly wasn't going to foment.

The original Polish idea (also from what I read and heard and as unsubstantiated as anything else nowadays) was for Poland to bring them to Rammstein, from there to be turned over to Ukraine (by means of passage undefined as such).

For all I know (and that ain't all that much) stinger and anti-tank guns might have been passed at night thru some obscure Ukrainian border fence (joke!!!), flying planes straight from the US's biggest base on foreign soil would have been a different cuppa.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
This idea would be OK if countries A, B and C decided to give militarily aid (in he form of their aircraft) to Ukraine, but goes way over the line when it’s actually the US giving 150% (or more) of that aid.

It’s like farmers in those countries saying that they will give their old (outdated) tractors away to help farmers in Ukraine, but will only do so if the US (taxpayer) agrees to give them newer (and much better) tractors. In other words, those pretending to be doing the charitable giving are actually getting far more than they are giving.
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But wouldn't they also be serving the interests of the US in producing more food (in theory)?
 
Chagos said:
I'd agree that it's difficult to see a difference between stingers (supplied) and MiGs (supplied) but the latter still constitute an escalation that NATO clearly wasn't going to foment.

The original Polish idea (also from what I read and heard and as unsubstantiated as anything else nowadays) was for Poland to bring them to Rammstein, from there to be turned over to Ukraine (by means of passage undefined as such).

For all I know (and that ain't all that much) stinger and anti-tank guns might have been passed at night thru some obscure Ukrainian border fence (joke!!!), flying planes straight from the US's biggest base on foreign soil would have been a different cuppa.
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Just checked up on this, what the Americans didn't like was Rammstein suddenly being used as the base or the US being used as an intermediary with F-16's being swapped for Polish use.

"The US position was in support of Poland sending the jets directly to Ukraine, not for the US to act as an intermediary," the US official added.
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Meanwhile, the Polish Prime Minister wanted the move to be made by NATO in total agreement which also probably upset the Americans.

Meanwhile I think the first mass massacre of civilians or use of tactical nukes / dirty bombs or chemical weapons will probably change minds pretty quickly.

www.bbc.co.uk

Russia could launch chemical attack in Ukraine - White House

False claims about chemical weapon development are a Russian ploy to justify more attacks, says Jen Psaki.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
Just checked up on this, what the Americans didn't like was Rammstein suddenly being used as the base or the US being used as an intermediary with F-16's being swapped for Polish use.



Meanwhile, the Polish Prime Minister wanted the move to be made by NATO in total agreement which also probably upset the Americans.

Meanwhile I think the first mass massacre of civilians or use of tactical nukes / dirty bombs or chemical weapons will probably change minds pretty quickly.

www.bbc.co.uk

Russia could launch chemical attack in Ukraine - White House

False claims about chemical weapon development are a Russian ploy to justify more attacks, says Jen Psaki.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Not outside the realm of possibilities.

As to Rammstein being used as an intermediate stop, there was also the problem (or so the US stated) of that base having no technical staff that could service (or even, if and where necessary, repair) the MiGs.

Of course that may be just an additional excuse for nixing the whole effort since they could perhaps have fallen back on Luftwaffe technicians. Maybe there are still some of those about that have remained conversant with planes that once were in German possession anyway.

The air force of the newly re-united Germany inherited them from the collapsed GDR and actually flew them for a while, before selling them to Poland.
 
I fail to see any grand distinction between Javelin's and Stinger's being directly supplied to Ukraine by NATO nations, and Polish MiG's being supplied to Ukraine via NATO nations.

All are lethal, and all can kill Russian soldiers.
 
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