• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

While it's fun to bash Trump, there's an important lesson here.

aociswundumho said:
You're not addressing the point. If political intervention improves outcomes, why are the housing and healthcare markets complete disasters? They both have heavy government intervention.
Click to expand...
Healthcare needs more government intervention. It is capitalism gone wild.
Housing, while far from a disaster,needs government regulation and intervention in order to make home ownership affordable to more people. Housing left to only capitalism would mean fewer people being able to even own a home.
 


  1. Elon Musk
    • Position: Co-head of the Department of Government Efficiency
    • Corporations:
      • Tesla Inc.: An electric vehicle and clean energy company with a market capitalization of approximately $700 billion.
      • SpaceX: A private aerospace manufacturer and space transport services company; as a private entity, its market capitalization isn't publicly listed.
    • Net Worth: Estimated at $435.5 billion.
  2. Vivek Ramaswamy
    • Position: Co-head of the Department of Government Efficiency
    • Corporations:
      • Roivant Sciences: A biopharmaceutical company with a market capitalization of nearly $9 billion.
      • Strive Asset Management: An investment firm focusing on non-ESG approaches; market capitalization details are private.
    • Net Worth: Approximately $1 billion.
  3. Howard Lutnick
    • Position: United States Secretary of Commerce
    • Corporation: Cantor Fitzgerald: A global financial services firm; as a private company, its market capitalization isn't publicly disclosed.
    • Net Worth: Estimated at $3.2 billion.
  4. Jared Isaacman
    • Position: Administrator of NASA
    • Corporation: Shift4 Payments: A payment processing company with a market capitalization of approximately $9 billion.
    • Net Worth: Around $1.7 billion.
  5. Warren Stephens
    • Position: Ambassador to the United Kingdom
    • Corporation: Stephens Inc.: An independent financial services firm; as a private entity, its market capitalization isn't publicly available.
    • Net Worth: Approximately $3.4 billion.
  6. Stephen Feinberg
    • Position: Deputy Secretary of Defense
    • Corporation: Cerberus Capital Management: A private equity firm managing about $65 billion in assets; as a private company, its market capitalization isn't publicly listed.
    • Net Worth: Estimated at $5 billion.
  7. Steve Witkoff
    • Position: Middle East Envoy
    • Corporation: Witkoff Group: A real estate development firm; as a private company, its market capitalization isn't publicly disclosed.
    • Net Worth: At least $1 billion.
  8. Frank Bisignano
    • Position: Head of the Social Security Administration
    • Corporation: Fiserv: A financial technology company with a market capitalization of nearly $9 billion.
    • Net Worth: Approximately $1 billion.
  9. Massad Boulos
    • Position: Middle East Advisor
    • Corporation: SCOA Nigeria PLC: A company with a market capitalization of about $865,000.
    • Net Worth: Subject to scrutiny; claims of billionaire status have been questioned.

Also don't forget..

  1. Scott Bessent
    • Position: United States Secretary of the Treasury
    • Background: Founder of Key Square Group, a global macro investment firm.
    • Net Worth: Information on his exact net worth is not publicly disclosed, but as a prominent hedge fund manager, he is considered to be among the wealthy individuals in the administration.
  2. Kelly Loeffler
    • Position: Administrator of the Small Business Administration
    • Background: Former U.S. Senator from Georgia and former CEO of Bakkt, a digital assets platform.
    • Net Worth: Estimated at over $1 billion.

These individuals, along with others previously mentioned, contribute to what is considered one of the wealthiest administrations in modern U.S. history, with at least 13 billionaires holding significant government roles.

as a socialist, he sure has crap load of billionaires in his admin, don't you think so?


Diving Mullah
 
aociswundumho said:
It doesn’t matter. For example, imagine that instead of massive tariffs, Trump uses massive government subsidies to achieve the same result. It would still be a disaster. As soon as you start overriding voluntary consumer behavior with political decrees, things begin to deteriorate - and that’s exactly what we see in the housing and healthcare markets.
Click to expand...

Except Trump doesn’t have any logical plan other than “tariffs good”.

If a rich landowner made decrees that override voluntary consumer behavior on their “private property” you would support them to the death.
 
phoenix2020 said:
Neither is a disaster.
Click to expand...

Yes they are.

Thanks to regulated capitalism, literally millions of young people will never own their own homes, and instead will spend their lives making landlords richer. I'll be starting a separate thread on this soon.

Healthcare is even easier:

health2.webp

health.webp

health1.webp
 
Questerr said:
Except Trump doesn’t have any logical plan other than “tariffs good”.
Click to expand...

Yes he does. He wants to bring manufacturing and factory jobs back to the US en masse.

Nor does it even matter if he has a plan or not.

Do you support government central planning?
 
aociswundumho said:
Yes he does. He wants to bring manufacturing and factory jobs back to the US en masse.

Nor does it even matter if he has a plan or not.

Do you support government central planning?
Click to expand...

Except Trump also wants countries to drop their tariffs to zero and have free trade, which will result in outsourcing those jobs. His plan is entirely contradictory and schizophrenic.

No, I support small government consisting of a federation of worker communes.
 
Sandy Shanks said:
With full employment and the most successful economy in the world, who the hell cares about a trade deficit? Somebody explain that to me.
Click to expand...
Our President has caused a trade war between the two largest economies in the world, China and us. The felon has also caused trade wars with the EU, Canada, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, and Australia.

The leaders in Russia and China are ecstatic as their most powerful enemy is destroying itself.

Our economy is heading straight into a recession with tariff-inspired inflation while Americans have lost billions from their investment and retirement account.

Never in our history has our President caused so much damage. The felon has been in office for less than three months, begging a question.

With Republican leaders in Congress saying and doing nothing to stop this vengeful felon {"I am your retribution."), how much more global damage will there be in the next four years?

CNN reports, "President Donald Trump is set to impose an astounding 104% in levies across all Chinese imports on Wednesday, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt announced on Tuesday. This comes on top of Chinese tariffs that were in place prior to Trump’s second term.

"China was already set to see tariffs increase by 34% on Wednesday as part of Trump’s “reciprocal” tariffs package. But the president tacked on another 50% after Beijing didn’t back off its promise to impose 34% retaliatory tariffs on US goods by noon Tuesday, adding an additional 84% in duties.

Politico added, "Trump barreled forward with his ongoing trade war Tuesday, saying that his administration is making progress toward deals with international partners in an effort to calm markets and show that his tariff plan is working."

Trump is a prolific liar and storyteller who ignores what is going on around him. White House officials follow a similar pattern. Americans cannot trust what Trump and the White House say. The press secretary follows a Trump inspired script. In many cases White House officials have no idea what is going on.

The same can be said for the convicted felon and accused insurrectionist. He says what is convenient. Reality is irrelevant.
 
Diving Mullah said:
These individuals, along with others previously mentioned, contribute to what is considered one of the wealthiest administrations in modern U.S. history, with at least 13 billionaires holding significant government roles.
Click to expand...

That's nice, but you didn't answer the other part of the question:

Diving Mullah said:
He's swinging the pendulum entirely in the opposite direction by enacting a corporate capitalist fascist state where only a handful of corporations—accountable exclusively to him—are permitted to operate.
Click to expand...

How is Trump going to stop the other 7 million C and S corps from operating?
 
KingLeo said:
It does not have to be one or the other, i.e. socialism -vs- capitalism.
The US has for decades been a blend of socialism and capitalism and for the most part it has worked well.
What Trump is trying to turn the US into is an authoritarian oligarchy which is far more dangerous to us citizens.
Click to expand...
The public school system is the socialist system in America. Centrally run, bloated with overpaid and far too many administrators, pay based on time served no matter your skills and dedication, a job for life, early retirement. I can't think of how the public schools would be run any differently in a socialist country. We are now number 31 since the former worst president Carter created the DOE and now replaced by Biden as the all-time worst.

How is Trump turning us into an oligarchy? Because he is rich and so is Musk, both working without pay?
 
aociswundumho said:
That's nice, but you didn't answer the other part of the question:



How is Trump going to stop the other 7 million C and S corps from operating?
Click to expand...
In the same way, he forced Bezos and the Washington Post not to endorse Biden/Kamala. Many businesses rely on government business he can use that as an extortion tool to bend a knee or be wiped out. We are not talking about mom-and-pop stores but major corporations with a vast market capitalization.

For example, he has let his FCC dogs go after PBS because of supposed "DEI" violations

And his EPA and other agencies have threatened companies to comply or be faced with retaliation from the US government. Remember congress gave up these powers and gave them to the Executive Branch...So the Trump administration has lots of leverage to dictate what companies can or can not do.

Diving Mullah
 
aociswundumho said:
Trump has a vision of taking America back to a time when most people worked in factories, and he's actually trying to force that vision on the rest of us. His use of tariffs is a clear example of government central planning, just on a small scale. He's using state power to try to reshape the American economy according to his own personal preferences.

It’s important to understand that tariffs are built on the same logic as central planning: the belief that government officials should override voluntary exchange and market signals to engineer a particular economic outcome. That’s the dangerous idea behind it.

Thankfully, Trump only has limited power, because this is still a free country. The U.S. is not a socialist state with a centrally planned economy.

But let’s think about how much damage he can do using only tariffs. Then imagine if he had control over the entire economy: wages, prices, raw materials, labor markets - every input. That would be a disaster. And we already have a name for that kind of system: socialism, which is public control over the means of production.

Trump is demonstrating to us why socialist countries are so poor - and why their people are often so miserable that the government has to build walls to keep them from escaping.

If you want prosperity, and the freedom to buy what you want, from who you want , then the answer is capitalism and largely free markets, not state control or central planning.
Click to expand...
One of the things that has always struck me about Trump is his ability to use new technological and social trends in American politics to harness support in his crusade to bring our country back to its past.
One of the reasons why I hate the Left so much is because of their support for Centralized power, and I’m sorry to see that the Right is going the same way. We should always lean toward de-Centralization so that political power can flow down to the lowest level possible.

Mark
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Trumpism is antithetical to American conservatism for more reasons than this or these

Trumpism is authoritarianism.

Trump said the Constitution should be scrapped and that the govt should violate the 2nd Amendment.

Trumpism is distinctly un-American.
Click to expand...
That's why I don't support him, even though I agree with some of his policies.

Mark
 
Paradoxical said:
The public school system is the socialist system in America. Centrally run, bloated with overpaid and far too many administrators, pay based on time served no matter your skills and dedication, a job for life, early retirement. I can't think of how the public schools would be run any differently in a socialist country. We are now number 31 since the former worst president Carter created the DOE and now replaced by Biden as the all-time worst.

How is Trump turning us into an oligarchy? Because he is rich and so is Musk, both working without pay?
Click to expand...

Musk doesn’t have an actual government job he can be paid for and Trump’s presidential salary would literally be pocket change to him.
 
aociswundumho said:
Trump has a vision of taking America back to a time when most people worked in factories, and he's actually trying to force that vision on the rest of us. His use of tariffs is a clear example of government central planning, just on a small scale. He's using state power to try to reshape the American economy according to his own personal preferences.

It’s important to understand that tariffs are built on the same logic as central planning: the belief that government officials should override voluntary exchange and market signals to engineer a particular economic outcome. That’s the dangerous idea behind it.

Thankfully, Trump only has limited power, because this is still a free country. The U.S. is not a socialist state with a centrally planned economy.

But let’s think about how much damage he can do using only tariffs. Then imagine if he had control over the entire economy: wages, prices, raw materials, labor markets - every input. That would be a disaster. And we already have a name for that kind of system: socialism, which is public control over the means of production.

Trump is demonstrating to us why socialist countries are so poor - and why their people are often so miserable that the government has to build walls to keep them from escaping.

If you want prosperity, and the freedom to buy what you want, from who you want , then the answer is capitalism and largely free markets, not state control or central planning.
Click to expand...
A lot of false narratives here. I'm surprised no one called you out on it.

Happier people tend to live in countries that have socialize health care
 
You must have learned about the U.S. from KKK history books.


The entire U.S. history is based on the centralization of the government, and federal power was used when states insisted on suppressing, enslaving, and maintaining the status quo of oppression against U.S. citizens. The left uses the federal government as it is meant to pull the states, often reluctantly, toward some measure of civility and equal rights for all. Now, Trump and the GOP and conservatives are using the power of the federal government in the opposite direction, undoing many of the civil liberties that people have fought to gain.

As for Trump....

Praise for Donald Trump’s supposed “crusade” to restore America’s past imagines him as a champion of decentralization and traditional values. How quaint. In reality, nothing screams big centralized power like Trump’s own governing style. This is the man who railed against federal overreach, yet happily ruled by executive fiat whenever Congress or the courts inconvenienced him. Trump has issued sweeping executive orders to impose his will from the top – from gutting diversity programs to punishing his critics – all while claiming to fight “centralized” leftist power. The irony is rich: Trump’s White House became a one-stop shop for authoritarian edicts

masquerading as a return to America’s “good old days.” or as you call it bring us back to the past!
Let’s unpack that irony. Trump loves to talk about “restoring power to the people,” but his actions concentrate power at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue more tightly than ever. He stacked his administration with loyalists and cronies, bypassed legislative input, and demonized any independent sources of authority. (Decentralization, who?) For instance, when big businesses or institutions dared to deviate from Trump’s line, he didn’t celebrate their independence – he threatened and coerced them from the bully pulpit of his Twitter feed and the Oval Office. Trump’s idea of “freedom” is apparently the freedom to agree with him – or face the consequences. Progressives warned that this brand of governance looks less like Jeffersonian democracy and more like a high-tech reboot of authoritarianism, wrapped in nostalgic rhetoric about a bygone America.

The funniest Part is that all of these have made you Hate Left More....That is utterly hilarious!

Diving Mullah
 
aociswundumho said:
I believe the tariffs are his plan.
Click to expand...

Except he’s also stated he wants other countries to cut their tariffs and have free trade, which will lead to outsourcing and jobs leaving America.

He contradicts himself because he’s trying to protect his narcissistic ego which has already hinged itself on “tariffs are good”.
 
aociswundumho said:
Trump has a vision of taking America back to a time when most people worked in factories, and he's actually trying to force that vision on the rest of us. His use of tariffs is a clear example of government central planning, just on a small scale. He's using state power to try to reshape the American economy according to his own personal preferences.
Click to expand...

In order for this to be true, then he would be making no "trade deals" with other countries. Unless that is just a ploy to keep the markets from taking daily losses. We know it's all bullshit.

No, that's Navarro's vision, maybe Nutlick's, but it's not Trump's. Trump just thinks other countries have been "treating us poorly" and this is his revenge. He can do it because Congress is too chickenshit to stop him. They have the power. I think he's actually convinced himself that other countries pay tariffs.

It's just a big mess. All it's going to do is wreck our economy, and maybe the world's. But maybe Trump and his oligarch's want that, so they can take advantage of the downturn. He said that is what he liked to do.
 
Uh...



He's drunk with power.
 
aociswundumho said:
Trump has a vision of taking America back to a time when most people worked in factories, and he's actually trying to force that vision on the rest of us. His use of tariffs is a clear example of government central planning, just on a small scale. He's using state power to try to reshape the American economy according to his own personal preferences.

It’s important to understand that tariffs are built on the same logic as central planning: the belief that government officials should override voluntary exchange and market signals to engineer a particular economic outcome. That’s the dangerous idea behind it.

Thankfully, Trump only has limited power, because this is still a free country. The U.S. is not a socialist state with a centrally planned economy.

But let’s think about how much damage he can do using only tariffs. Then imagine if he had control over the entire economy: wages, prices, raw materials, labor markets - every input. That would be a disaster. And we already have a name for that kind of system: socialism, which is public control over the means of production.

Trump is demonstrating to us why socialist countries are so poor - and why their people are often so miserable that the government has to build walls to keep them from escaping.

If you want prosperity, and the freedom to buy what you want, from who you want , then the answer is capitalism and largely free markets, not state control or central planning.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, you learned the wrong lesson.

It doesn't matter what the economic ideology -- capitalism, plutocracy, socialism, or communism......If you are ruled by a dictator, then you are not going to have economic prosperity.

And the U.S. is on the cusp of becoming a dictatorship under Trump.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom