Which WMD has most usable value?

[joko104]

If an anthrax outbreak occurs anywhere in the world that’s an act of biological warfare? That’s what you are claiming?

Natural diseases can be used as a biological weapon but doing so requires human agency behind the use. USAMRIID has definitively confirmed that no human agent was being Covid. It’s a 100% natural disease that spread due to natural factors.

So what was the military specialty of your supposed Covid expert? Why won’t you say? Is it because they are clearly someone who would have ****ing clue as to Covid’s origins?

The 1918 Flu Pandemic originated in the United States. Should the 20 million people it killed be considered the result of a US biological attack on the world?

Your question again is nonsense. Do you claim all fires are the result of fire bombing - or do you claim that natural fire has ever been used as a weapoon?

No, it is nonsense to claim that covid-19 has any biological warfare potential and this is not a covid-19 debate. It is about the viability of biological warfare.

Warfare doesn't necessary mean total destruction and conquest of another country. It can be just a matter of whittling the other side down, the ability to withstand harm caused by spreading a contagious disease in another country more than your own people - such as far more people travel from China to the USA than Americans travel from the USA to China. It is the only WMD where there may be no way to know if it is a deliberate attack or just a natural pandemic. It is true the overwhelming majority of pandemic diseases historically have come from China to the West, like the West brought pandemic disease to the USA - and the USA used natural diseases as a biological weapon against Native Americans.

Biological weapons are the only WMD that can be used where it no evidence that a biological weapon has been used at all. Overall, it likely is the most covert weapon of all - because even poisons prove the death was by murder. But if a person dies of food poisoning by a common natural food poison - and the small scale (which has been done in the USA) to large scale such as covid-19 - and then more new, more contagious forms of it keep coming in or evolving here.

There is no way to prove it is a biological attack discovered and evolved - then released by accident or deliberately - in the Wuhan gain of function biological warfare laboratory - or did it come on its own from nature - and/or from somewhere else. That proves its superiority over nuclear weapons - tactical or large scale - and chemical weapons. If either of those were used we would know it is an attack - though might not know by who. Can't know with biological weapons unless the attacker literally admits it.

 

[Jonsa]

Nuclear, biological or chemical?

My answer has always been the one we are under attack from now - biological. Covid-19 is a test run - targeting who China most would like to eliminate - elderly because they are costly non-producers - and blacks - with the population explosion in Africa threatening China's growing economic interests there. It also is a tactic warning from China. Since we get everything from China - even most food now is from or processed in China, they could kill virtually every American by an unstoppable biological attack before we knew anything was happening - and then about it. Regardless, most of us are dead, dying or inevitably will be infected - all while China (or other attack) says "we didn't do it, it just came out of nature!"

We also see the benefits to biological attacks too.

Deniability: You can kill hundreds of thousands or millions, devastate the adversaries economy and society, while denying any responsibility or alternatively claim it was an accident.

Harm to adversary: Covid-19 has permanently destroyed hundreds of thousands of small businesses, soon to top over half a million, with small business the largest employer in the USA. The unemployed reached 40 million. The national debt will have increased 50% in not much more than a year - and the costs and harms - economic and to society will last for years and may keep getting worse as more and more lethal stains of it are released or evolved.

Killing the enemy: The Wuhan biological warfare gain-of-function covid-19 is claimed to have killed 350,000 Americans and the number rapidly growing. If this continues, it will be the most deadly war the USA has ever been in - with nothing but profits and benefits to the attacker. Brilliant strategy by China.

Profitability: China is at the same time making trillions off this as people no longer spend money at restaurants, travel, road trips and going to amusement parks or the theater. Rather, they spend that money buying from Amazon and WalMart - 95%+ being Chinese products. Even most masks are from China.

The response of the USA to a nuclear or chemical attack, even if far less deadly and destructive, would be immediately and massive. But our response to a biological attack? Destroy ourselves even further and send the attackers massive sums of money as a reward - while we are being continuously made sick, harmed and killed and our society smashed.

The most effective WMD is covert biological attack, because it can be used with only benefits for doing so, while slaughtering the enemy by every measure.

big problem with biological weapons. To be a mass killer it has to be aerosol transmission and as covid has proven, its damn hard to contain the spread. then once it starts to spread you get unpredicable variants and mutations. I suppose you could innoculate your entire population against it, but covid has also demonstrated you couldn't do that without the enemy finding out.
the conspiracy theory is cute. It reminds me of the one where the Israeli were supposedly building an ethnobomb bioweapon kill palestinians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon

 

[Rich2018]

...contrary to an above poster, ALL biological weapons are natural diseases...

Again I'm not a chemist, but this site talks about "genetically engineered superbugs"{

Genetic engineering and biological weapons - PMC

New technologies, desires and threats from biological research

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The sought after Holy Grail is seeking biological weapons that target people of a certain race or ethnicity...

Yeah but is there really a significant DNA difference between human races to enable such a difference to be attacked ?

 

[joko104]

Again I'm not a chemist, but this site talks about "genetically engineered superbugs"{

Genetic engineering and biological weapons - PMC

New technologies, desires and threats from biological research

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yeah but is there really a significant DNA difference between human races to enable such a difference to be attacked ?

Virus and bacteria evolve very quickly and usage of different species, chemicals, ph factors and low level radiation, probably other means can be used to engage in such gain-of-function development of superbugs.

Whether genetic markers that are used to identify to people's racial and ethic origins - which is done (think of ancestry.com) - can be a basis for the selectivity of lethal pathogens, even if they just tend to kill one ethic/racial group than another, just like some virus more attack the elderly while others more attack the young.

I've read covid-19 is far more lethal to black people than white people. If so, the theory that there is potential to engineer a virus or bacteria to most infect a certain ethnicity is viable. I wonder if covid-19 more attacks black and white people than Asians in terms of the actual stats of the percentage being infected and killed depending on race/ethnicity. There are around 20,000,000 people of Asian ancestry in the USA. I can not recall seeing any report of an Asian-American dying of covid-19. Doesn't mean the kill rate is not the same - just haven't seen it of the many hundreds of articles of this and that person dying of covid.

Maybe you can work thru this:

DEFINE_ME

 

[Rich2018]

I've read covid-19 is far more lethal to black people than white people. If so, the theory that there is potential to engineer a virus or bacteria to most infect a certain ethnicity is viable. I wonder if covid-19 more attacks black and white people than Asians in terms of the actual stats of the percentage being infected and killed depending on race/ethnicity. There are around 20,000,000 people of Asian ancestry in the USA. I can not recall seeing any report of an Asian-American dying of covid-19. Doesn't mean the kill rate is not the same - just haven't seen it of the many hundreds of articles of this and that person dying of covid.

I've read that too but not heard any reputable scientist state that they believe it to be true.

The difference could be down to sociological factors like standard of living, poverty and cultural resistance to counter measures like wearing masks and avoiding social gatherings.

 

[joko104]

I've read that too but not heard any reputable scientist state that they believe it to be true.

The difference could be down to sociological factors like standard of living, poverty and cultural resistance to counter measures like wearing masks and avoiding social gatherings.

Possibly, but it is known that viruses have attacked people based largely upon age, although everyone has the same dna.

 

[Captain America]

The person in the military I have discussed this with said it clearly is from China, but no one says anything because there is absolutely nothing we can or will do about it. I would not expect the US military to admit they have no defense against biological attacks and can't do anything about it if China did this.
In fact, it is a nonsensical statement. Every contagious disease easily spread is a biological weapon.

Indeed! Clearly! LOL!

So, tell me Joko. Who you gonna believe? The U.S. Army Medical Research and Development Command or someone you "know" in the military?

All due respect to our women and men serving in uniform. I, too, wore that uniform once. Let me tell you from first hand observation during my time in. Not everyone in the military is always the sharpest tack in the pack. Myself included. Just saying......

 

[joko104]

Indeed! Clearly! LOL!

So, tell me Joko. Who you gonna believe? The U.S. Army Medical Research and Development Command or someone you "know" in the military?

All due respect to our women and men serving in uniform. I, too, wore that uniform once. Let me tell you from first hand observation during my time in. Not everyone in the military is always the sharpest tack in the pack. Myself included. Just saying......

What is interesting is the true DESPERATION of most Democrats to defend China - and will make up anything to do so. The "US Army Medical Reseachs and Development Command" did NOT say covid-19 didn't come from China and did NOT say China did not accidentally or deliberately release covid-19. If fact, the one sentence message even mentioning it didn't even have a link.

But SOOO desperate to defend China that you make up something never said by anyone.

The only thing your message may prove is you are correct that "not everyone in the military is the sharpest tack in the pack. LOL

 

[Jredbaron96]

Nuclear weapons.

Chemical weapons are a poor man's WMD. Biological weapons are potentially more dangerous but are also more vulnerable in a lot of ways.

 

[OlNate]

What a load of tosh.

Yeah, this is the thread winner. I actually feel stupider for even skimming the OP. Can't wait until we're clear of this bullshit.

 

[OlNate]

Nuclear, biological or chemical?

My answer has always been the one we are under attack from now - biological. Covid-19 is a test run - targeting who China most would like to eliminate - elderly because they are costly non-producers - and blacks - with the population explosion in Africa threatening China's growing economic interests there. It also is a tactic warning from China. Since we get everything from China - even most food now is from or processed in China, they could kill virtually every American by an unstoppable biological attack before we knew anything was happening - and then about it. Regardless, most of us are dead, dying or inevitably will be infected - all while China (or other attack) says "we didn't do it, it just came out of nature!"

We also see the benefits to biological attacks too.

Deniability: You can kill hundreds of thousands or millions, devastate the adversaries economy and society, while denying any responsibility or alternatively claim it was an accident.

Harm to adversary: Covid-19 has permanently destroyed hundreds of thousands of small businesses, soon to top over half a million, with small business the largest employer in the USA. The unemployed reached 40 million. The national debt will have increased 50% in not much more than a year - and the costs and harms - economic and to society will last for years and may keep getting worse as more and more lethal stains of it are released or evolved.

Killing the enemy: The Wuhan biological warfare gain-of-function covid-19 is claimed to have killed 350,000 Americans and the number rapidly growing. If this continues, it will be the most deadly war the USA has ever been in - with nothing but profits and benefits to the attacker. Brilliant strategy by China.

Profitability: China is at the same time making trillions off this as people no longer spend money at restaurants, travel, road trips and going to amusement parks or the theater. Rather, they spend that money buying from Amazon and WalMart - 95%+ being Chinese products. Even most masks are from China.

The response of the USA to a nuclear or chemical attack, even if far less deadly and destructive, would be immediately and massive. But our response to a biological attack? Destroy ourselves even further and send the attackers massive sums of money as a reward - while we are being continuously made sick, harmed and killed and our society smashed.

The most effective WMD is covert biological attack, because it can be used with only benefits for doing so, while slaughtering the enemy by every measure.

Complete and utter bullshit. Not even China could have imagined how bad Trump would have handled this. Or, if they did, then you enabled them by voting for the dumb prick.

Either way, this belongs in the CT forum, despite the transparently ridiculous attempt to frame it as a military discussion.

 

[MamboDervish]

Do you think about what you write? But since it is YOUR claim, go start a thread on the Covid-19 board and explain your claim that Covid-19 has wonderfully benefited the USA and has made the USA stronger. That's your claim - go start a thread on it.

Try thinking again before jumping into your ranting mode. You are now ON RECORD as claiming covid-19 has greatly benefited the USA and made the USA much stronger as a nation.

Epic fail. People with twice your brains have tried to put words in my mouth with no more luck than you. You are the one who claims justification for claiming it's a biological weapon.
Given the result, it's clearly obvious you haven't thought that through.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

For China to release Covid 19 intentionally in Wuhan China would make sense under only a few conditions

They would have to believe the US was being led by an absolute moron who would screw up so badly the US would do worse than China in handling the virus

They would have to believe that no one would know it was the center for research into coronavirus in bats, making it a leading candidate for being responsible for releasing it. That would be an absolute moronic move. Ideally from a Chinese standpoint it would be much better to release it in the US or Europe. Far away from China and any potential blame.

China would have to believe it could contain it better than the US which was rated as the most prepared nation to handle it.

So it would make sense only if Trump was an absolute moron, the Chinese believed he was a moron, and the Chinese were stupid enough to release it in Wuhan rather than an outside country

 

[joko104]

Epic fail. People with twice your brains have tried to put words in my mouth with no more luck than you. You are the one who claims justification for claiming it's a biological weapon.
Given the result, it's clearly obvious you haven't thought that through.

All contagious lethal diseases are by definition a biological weapon - and have been used as biological weapons for over 3,500 years. You claim is as irrational as claiming no gun is a deadly weapon unless you can prove a specific gun was used deliberately to kill someone - and then only that gun is a deadly weapon. Otherwise, guns are not weapons.

Since you refuse to discuss the topic and instead just rant person insults, I'm done with you. Waste other people's time, not mine.

 

[joko104]

I wonder how many Democrats have a prayer closet where they pray to an image of Xi Jinging multiple times a day? SO fixated on declaring China is a nation of saints to be defended at all costs, most can't even discuss the topic of biological weapons efficacy as a WMD compared to other WMDs.

 

[Fishking]

Nuclear, biological or chemical?

Biological. How else are we supposed to get the zombie apocalypse?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I wonder how many Democrats have a prayer closet where they pray to an image of Xi Jinging multiple times a day? SO fixated on declaring China is a nation of saints to be defended at all costs, most can't even discuss the topic of biological weapons efficacy as a WMD compared to other WMDs.

Do you believe that Donald Trump is an absolute moron in that he would lead the US to a horrible Covid 19 response, far worse than South Korea and other East Asian countries?

Do you believe that China believed that Trump was an absolute moron and believed he would do a horrible job?


As for biological weapons, they are dangerous to the creating country if they do not have a cure for it. Even if they do, it is dangerous as they can mutate and bypass any cure for it. Small Pox being a stable virus was quite different


Covid 19 as a biological weapon is rather poor, it kills the old and or sick leaving the healthy alone. The opposite of what most would want in a bio weapon

 

[joko104]

For China to release Covid 19 intentionally in Wuhan China would make sense under only a few conditions

They would have to believe the US was being led by an absolute moron who would screw up so badly the US would do worse than China in handling the virus

They would have to believe that no one would know it was the center for research into coronavirus in bats, making it a leading candidate for being responsible for releasing it. That would be an absolute moronic move. Ideally from a Chinese standpoint it would be much better to release it in the US or Europe. Far away from China and any potential blame.

China would have to believe it could contain it better than the US which was rated as the most prepared nation to handle it.

So it would make sense only if Trump was an absolute moron, the Chinese believed he was a moron, and the Chinese were stupid enough to release it in Wuhan rather than an outside country

Or it was accidently released in Wuhan - for which China could either immediately warn us taking all harm mostly on itself and facing demands to shut the lab down - or could seize on the opportunity to lie and allow it to spread worldwide, making the easy calculation how this could benefit China and harm their economic and potentially military adversaries - and as a test run plus a warning to the USA and West - while claiming it just a one in a billion coincidence it started just outside the door of their Virus based gain-of-function biological weapons development laboratory.

What a coincidence how virtually every pandemic disease hitting the USA coincidentally was first detected in China - over and over again. I suppose a person could flip a coin and it lands on heads a billion times in a row. Certainly couldn't be a trick coin with heads on both sides. Besides, not seeing the coin claiming that it could be a trick coin would just be a wacko conspiracy theory.

 

[joko104]

Do you believe that Donald Trump is an absolute moron in that he would lead the US to a horrible Covid 19 response, far worse than South Korea and other East Asian countries?

Do you believe that China believed that Trump was an absolute moron and believed he would do a horrible job?


As for biological weapons, they are dangerous to the creating country if they do not have a cure for it. Even if they do, it is dangerous as they can mutate and bypass any cure for it. Small Pox being a stable virus was quite different


Covid 19 as a biological weapon is rather poor, it kills the old and or sick leaving the healthy alone. The opposite of what most would want in a bio weapon

I believe your TDS messages are moronic. The topic is not your fixation on hatred of the President and love of Xi Jinping. Go start a thread on that somewhere else if there aren't enough TDS hate-on-Trump threads already for you.

China would not have a biological warfare gain-of-function virus lab if China believed they are too dangerous to create. That is a moronic claim on your part.

In fact, all gain-of-function research was banned worldwide for the dangers of accident release - until the great Dr. Anthony Fauci successfully lead the charge to have the ban lifted - and then some rich Americans and his organization heavily financed building the massive laboratory, because they could use the unthinkably cruel "wet markets" as their source of mammals for research and development of biological weapons that could be produced from natural diseases mammals have that normally do not harm humans. They knew Americans would never, ever tolerate such savage torturous treatment of mammals from around the world - including protected and endangers species.

Only the most simple minded people think of warfare only in terms of total genocide - nor grasp warfare is about the other side suffering more loss than you own - which is exactly what warfare inherently is about. Covid-19 is perfect by the same measure you state for other than such simpleton thinking.

But go ahead and make your case for your claim the covid-19 has been wonderfully beneficial to the USA because it mostly kills the elderly, poor and sick - since that's your claim. Start a thread on that claim on the covid-19 and see how that goes.

You won't object if on the Covid-19 board I point out that Lord Tammerlain says Covid 19 has tremendously benefited the United States by killing old, sick and poor people, will you? You just made that claim.

 

[Rich2018]

Possibly, but it is known that viruses have attacked people based largely upon age, although everyone has the same dna.

Age I can accept, or sickness - as the body is weaker than one in it's prime.

 

[Jonsa]

Yeah but is there really a significant DNA difference between human races to enable such a difference to be attacked ?

Unknown at this point, but to even if possible there'd be extensive collateral damage since any targetted specific unique gene sequence predominant in the enemy ethnic group in all likelihood would be shared by members of various other populations, since genes are recombinant and humans like sex.

Technology isn't even remotely close to attaining this sci fi weapon.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Or it was accidently released in Wuhan - for which China could either immediately warn us taking all harm mostly on itself and facing demands to shut the lab down - or could seize on the opportunity to lie and allow it to spread worldwide, making the easy calculation how this could benefit China and harm their economic and potentially military adversaries - and as a test run plus a warning to the USA and West - while claiming it just a one in a billion coincidence it started just outside the door of their Virus based gain-of-function biological weapons development laboratory.

What a coincidence how virtually every pandemic disease hitting the USA coincidentally was first detected in China - over and over again. I suppose a person could flip a coin and it lands on heads a billion times in a row. Certainly couldn't be a trick coin with heads on both sides. Besides, not seeing the coin claiming that it could be a trick coin would just be a wacko conspiracy theory.

If the plan was to let it infect the US and the world why inform the world in early Jan of the Virus, along with the genome of the virus. Then creating mass economic issues in China by shutting down for months. Long before it became issues in Europe or the US.

Would it not make sense not to report it and not provide the information to fight the virus? Which if used properly could have ensured the US was barely effected just like South Korea. South Korea in comparison did a far better job than the US with the same information. Had the US did just as well as South Korea, then the negative effects that China suffered economically would have been far more than that of the US

 

[MamboDervish]

All contagious lethal diseases are by definition a biological weapon -

No. They aren't. Certainly not by definition - your words. In fact, the idea is ridiculous on its face. By definition:
"Biological weapons are microorganisms like virus, bacteria, fungi, or other toxins that are produced and released deliberately to cause disease and death in humans, animals or plants."

. . . . . . and have been used as biological weapons for over 3,500 years.

WHA .... ? Moses's curse against the first born of Egypt?
You slay me!

You claim is as irrational as claiming no gun is a deadly weapon unless you can prove a specific gun was used deliberately to kill someone - and then only that gun is a deadly weapon. Otherwise, guns are not weapons.

Non sequitur. The two cannot be conflated. You'll have to work harder on your analogies.

 

[joko104]

Age I can accept, or sickness - as the body is weaker than one in it's prime.

Then how do you explain contagious diseases that most infect children - who are virtually immune to harm by covid 19? Little children are not lethally infected because their bodies are weaker, but old people more lethally infected are because their bodies are weaker?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I believe your TDS messages are moronic. The topic is not your fixation on hatred of the President and love of Xi Jinping. Go start a thread on that somewhere else if there aren't enough TDS hate-on-Trump threads already for you.

China would not have a biological warfare gain-of-function virus lab if China believed they are too dangerous to create. That is a moronic claim on your part.

In fact, all gain-of-function research was banned worldwide for the dangers of accident release - until the great Dr. Anthony Fauci successfully lead the charge to have the ban lifted - and then some rich Americans and his organization heavily financed building the massive laboratory, because they could use the unthinkably cruel "wet markets" as their source of mammals for research and development of biological weapons that could be produced from natural diseases mammals have that normally do not harm humans. They knew Americans would never, ever tolerate such savage torturous treatment of mammals from around the world - including protected and endangers species.

Only the most simple minded people think of warfare only in terms of total genocide - nor grasp warfare is about the other side suffering more loss than you own - which is exactly what warfare inherently is about. Covid-19 is perfect by the same measure you state for other than such simpleton thinking.

But go ahead and make your case for your claim the covid-19 has been wonderfully beneficial to the USA because it mostly kills the elderly, poor and sick - since that's your claim. Start a thread on that claim on the covid-19 and see how that goes.

You won't object if on the Covid-19 board I point out that Lord Tammerlain says Covid 19 has tremendously benefited the United States by killing old, sick and poor people, will you? You just made that claim.

Where did I say that it was beneficial? Can you point that out for me please?

Yes the entire point of warfare is to make the other suffer more than your side.

Covid 19 should not have hurt the US the way it did. The US had the same information that Japan and SK did but did orders of magnitude worse than those countries. That should not have happened, the US handled it poorly and I doubt that was expected in Feb. The most prepared country for a pandemic did nearly the worst of any major country