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Where does the real fault lie?

MaggieD

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Hoplite

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Wtf? How on earth do you come up with "where does the real fault lie"?
 

spud_meister

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with the person who pulled the trigger, simple as that.
 

Johnny

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It's the fault of the shooter.

When you grow up in an urban area it's too risky to report crime. You learn very quickly to mind your own. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it is what it is. You don't want to be labeled a snitch.
 

MaggieD

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It's the fault of the shooter.

When you grow up in an urban area it's too risky to report crime. You learn very quickly to mind your own. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it is what it is. You don't want to be labeled a snitch.
It just seems sooooo sad to me that moms/dads don't rise up to protect their own. A little girl jumping rope. A little boy riding his bike. A couple of kids sitting on the porch. The stories are heartbreaking.

But if people refuse to help the police, what can the police do? As someone said on another thread here, "When seconds count, remember....the cops are only minutes away."

To Spud -- if you had little children and somebody shot your daughter and you KNEW that your neighbors knew who did it, wouldn't you blame them, too?
 

Hoplite

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It just seems sooooo sad to me that moms/dads don't rise up to protect their own. A little girl jumping rope. A little boy riding his bike. A couple of kids sitting on the porch. The stories are heartbreaking.
What do you expect them to do?

But if people refuse to help the police, what can the police do? As someone said on another thread here, "When seconds count, remember....the cops are only minutes away."
Except it's rarely that simple. I support law enforcement but I am the first to mention that there are people on the police force that give the uniform a bad name. Cops that dont care, cops that are here for a power trip. These cops are rare, but they poison other people's minds against the police and makes them hesitant to trust.

Keep in mind, a lot of these poor areas have many immigrants in them. Many of these immigrants come from places where police are not to be trusted.
 

MaggieD

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What do you expect them to do?


Except it's rarely that simple. I support law enforcement but I am the first to mention that there are people on the police force that give the uniform a bad name. Cops that dont care, cops that are here for a power trip. These cops are rare, but they poison other people's minds against the police and makes them hesitant to trust.

Keep in mind, a lot of these poor areas have many immigrants in them. Many of these immigrants come from places where police are not to be trusted.
In many communities, neighbors have set up Community Watch Programs. Stickers on signs to call the cops about suspicious activity. These urban neighborhoods are not much different than the Wild West, and the sheriff can't do it alone.

Get rid of apathy in these neighborhoods and these thugs couldn't survive. People are afraid to step up, yet they don't move from these neighborhoods and let their children die. I blame the neighborhoods and the apathetic people living in them as much as I blame the gangsta's.
 

Hoplite

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In many communities, neighbors have set up Community Watch Programs. Stickers on signs to call the cops about suspicious activity. These urban neighborhoods are not much different than the Wild West, and the sheriff can't do it alone.
It isnt that easy. When tattling can get you or your family shot at, you think twice. It's easy to criticize people for not standing up when its not your neck thats being risked. What you're doing is ragging on people who generally dont have much to begin with to risk everything for the sake of the community.

Except we arent a society that values the community above the individual, we value the individual above the community. Thank you free market economy?

Get rid of apathy in these neighborhoods and these thugs couldn't survive. People are afraid to step up, yet they don't move from these neighborhoods and let their children die. I blame the neighborhoods and the apathetic people living in them as much as I blame the gangsta's.
I think it's less apathy and more fear and I fail to see how you can justify blaming someone for not wanting to speak out if the consequences are possible injury or death. It's the same reason a lot of people join gangs, you do it for protection, not just the lifestyle.
 

Goshin

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Each and every one of us is ultimately responsible for our own safety. Each and every one of us shares in the responsibility or our communities safety, in how we respond to crime and the presence of criminals among us.

Chicago is not safe because Chicagoans are not doing what it takes to make it safe. This probably includes cooperating with the police; it might include more active measures.


Major changes in local government would be a good start.
 
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StandUpChuck

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It isnt that easy. When tattling can get you or your family shot at, you think twice. It's easy to criticize people for not standing up when its not your neck thats being risked. What you're doing is ragging on people who generally dont have much to begin with to risk everything for the sake of the community.

Except we arent a society that values the community above the individual, we value the individual above the community. Thank you free market economy?


I think it's less apathy and more fear and I fail to see how you can justify blaming someone for not wanting to speak out if the consequences are possible injury or death. It's the same reason a lot of people join gangs, you do it for protection, not just the lifestyle.
But when innocent kids are being killed, it's time to step out of your own comfort zone. Start taking steps to rat out these thugs, abandon the hell hole neighborhoods, wear a free condom so you don't end up raising kids in a danger zone, teach your kids how to recognize when something's about to go down on the street (as if no one knows), teach your kids not to play jumprope next to gangsters. If you live in an area long enough, you know the street, you know the trouble areas. I let my kid play outside with his friends unsupervised because we live in a safe area. However because nothing is 100% safe, I know where he is. When he and his friends want to ride their bikes in an area that's known for fast moving cars, one of us goes with him. *He* might not notice a car that's being driven erratically, but *I* would. I'm not saying it's the parents' fault that these 2 little girls were caught in the crossfire, but maybe if mom were outside watching, she'd have noticed 2 morons riding their bikes with guns, because I'm sure the girls didn't.

I dunno ... do something. :shrug:
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Hardly a week goes by but a young child is killed by gang gunfire in the City of Chicago. It's generally accidental random shootings. These crimes are most often not solved because people in the neighborhoods are afraid to speak up.

I understand they're afraid...but is this not partly their own fault?

I could list link after link, but this one will have to do:

9-Year Old Caught In Crossfire & Killed Playing Jump Rope In Chicago [Video] « Hip-Hop Wired
I believe there is a fault in the San Andreas area. :2razz:

Seriously though, the fault lies with the gun men and the community at large.
They let it get this bad and now their children pay the price.

That's what happens when people buck the authorities for all the wrong reasons.
 

Johnny

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This is why gun control is a failure. They restrict ownership of weapons to law abiding citizens while the criminals will have guns. The public is left defenseless.

If more people had firearms the bad guts would think twice.

It's also a right but it gets more and more restricted.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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This is why gun control is a failure. They restrict ownership of weapons to law abiding citizens while the criminals will have guns. The public is left defenseless.

If more people had firearms the bad guts would think twice.

It's also a right but it gets more and more restricted.
Even though I'm a huge supporter of gun rights, I think it has less to do with that and more to do with the community culture.

No snitching and "screw the police" attitudes do way more harm than good.
 

MaggieD

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Even though I'm a huge supporter of gun rights, I think it has less to do with that and more to do with the community culture.

No snitching and "screw the police" attitudes do way more harm than good.
Absolutely agree. I would add one more factor. Moms who disregard the lives of their children. If you live in a neighborhood where a child can get killed playing outside, don't let your kids play outside. Or move.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Absolutely agree. I would add one more factor. Moms who disregard the lives of their children. If you live in a neighborhood where a child can get killed playing outside, don't let your kids play outside. Or move.
Very true.

My second belief is that programs like section 8 and housing projects (among all the other social welfare programs) have created a transient style hub for young males.

They can go back and forth, from house to house with their girlfriends and evade the authorities.
 

Johnny

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Absolutely agree. I would add one more factor. Moms who disregard the lives of their children. If you live in a neighborhood where a child can get killed playing outside, don't let your kids play outside. Or move.

Wrong. It's not possible for everybody to just move. And you can't coop a kid up in the house 24/7.
 

MaggieD

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Wrong. It's not possible for everybody to just move. And you can't coop a kid up in the house 24/7.
If I choose to raise my kids in a freakin' war zone, it's my fault when they're shot on my front porch. If you can't move, then pretend like it's rainin' 24/7 and keep 'em inside. An awful lot of these people could move. They've just gotta' get out of the habit of being stay-at-home moms.
 

Johnny

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No. A lot of people were born in their neighborhoods and are too poor to move. Stop blaming the victims. That's what's wrong with America. People blame the victims.

As far as not being able to report crime that's why I support the right to bear arms. If tge people could defend themselves it wouldn't be an issue.
 

MaggieD

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No. A lot of people were born in their neighborhoods and are too poor to move. Stop blaming the victims. That's what's wrong with America. People blame the victims.

As far as not being able to report crime that's why I support the right to bear arms. If tge people could defend themselves it wouldn't be an issue.
I don't mean to blame the victims entirely. I'm trying to say that law enforcement, in a free society, cannot make neighborhoods safe on their own. It takes the neighborhood. That's what infuriates me. Yes! They're afraid. But people simply have to step up to save their children.

Somehow the idea of kids jumping rope and packin' doesn't sound too plausible to me. And if you're saying other people should have guns....well, now they can in Chicago. But if they've got the balls to stand outside and shoot at a gangster, certainly they should have the balls to identify the thug that shot the neighbor's child.

As for being too poor to move, I'm sorry. I do not buy it. Get a couple families together. Actually marry a guy instead of havin' him sneak out the backdoor so you can collect your welfare check. It's all doable. It would be for you, Johnny. Wouldn't it?
 

Johnny

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It's worse to report it because you're put at risk by not only those involved but others after people know you talk to to police.

What criminals count on is a public that's unarmed. If they knew the public was as armed as they are they'd think twice. Shooting back at the shooter is not as dangerous to your safety as being labeled a snitch.

Getting married has nothing to do with anything.
 

MaggieD

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It's worse to report it because you're put at risk by not only those involved but others after people know you talk to to police.

What criminals count on is a public that's unarmed. If they knew the public was as armed as they are they'd think twice. Shooting back at the shooter is not as dangerous to your safety as being labeled a snitch.

Getting married has nothing to do with anything.
You're right. My bad. How 'bout just wanting a dad in the house? One who's actually *yikes* working?
 

Harry Guerrilla

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It's worse to report it because you're put at risk by not only those involved but others after people know you talk to to police.

What criminals count on is a public that's unarmed. If they knew the public was as armed as they are they'd think twice. Shooting back at the shooter is not as dangerous to your safety as being labeled a snitch.

Getting married has nothing to do with anything.
You'd be surprised how much that has to do with a lot of things.

The social welfare system has influenced the single parent family more than anything else.

With that comes the disconnect of the traditional family structure, which creates an interdependence among all the members.
Essentially, marriage tends to settle people down, to insure the well being of the family structure.

When that erodes you have a class of transient, anti social men running around breeding more transient, anti social men.
 

Johnny

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You're right. My bad. How 'bout just wanting a dad in the house? One who's actually *yikes* working?

No I'm not saying having two parents at home doesn't help. I agree. But if you look at the divorce rates today so many couples get divorced these days so it still creates a single parent household as one parent usually has tge kid more of the time.

Maybe I misunderstood your post.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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No I'm not saying having two parents at home doesn't help. I agree. But if you look at the divorce rates today so many couples get divorced these days so it still creates a single parent household as one parent usually has tge kid more of the time.

Maybe I misunderstood your post.
It's not necessarily divorced households but homes where the second parent is erratically present and, generally, non supportive.
 

Kali

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It just seems sooooo sad to me that moms/dads don't rise up to protect their own. A little girl jumping rope. A little boy riding his bike. A couple of kids sitting on the porch. The stories are heartbreaking.

But if people refuse to help the police, what can the police do? As someone said on another thread here, "When seconds count, remember....the cops are only minutes away."

To Spud -- if you had little children and somebody shot your daughter and you KNEW that your neighbors knew who did it, wouldn't you blame them, too?
What 'they' you talking about? The kids are doing normal stuff like skipping rope, riding bikes, etc. Are you suggesting that kids should never leave the house?


If I had kids and knew my neighbors knew who did it? They would either tell me who did out right or I would damn sure do some stuff to make em talk. Then once I found out who killed my kids? They would die.

*Have not read whole thread so this may have already came up.*
 
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