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Where do you stand on abortion/deathpenalty?

Where Do You Stand?

  • Pro-Choice, Pro-Death Penalty

    Votes: 5 16.7%

  • Pro-Choice, Anti-Death Penalty

    Votes: 11 36.7%

  • Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty

    Votes: 8 26.7%

  • Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Navy Pride said:
So if you had a relative who was murdered, mutilated, and cannabalized by this animal would you still want to spare him the death penalty....Be careful how you answer this question.........Remember God is watching.........
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1) I am not a Christian.

2) I have no reason to lie.

3) If I had a relative who was murdered I have no reason to think that which I believe, that which I think is right, would change. And certainly would not welcome such a change in myself that comes only from hatred and a desire for revenge.
 
All right doughgirl I will explain myself further. I apologize for my abrasiveness in this matter and in my response to you. However I hope that you realize that this is an important issue to me and the former was the result if that.

You should not assume that I am not educated in abortion or at all. I may be nothing more than a guy with a high school diploma, 2 jobs and 14 years of real life experience. But I don’t need a piece of paper to validate my opinion. Or give me warrant to regurgitate the beliefs and philosophy of others that was taught to me. I do know about abortion and while I have not memorized Roe vs. Wade it does not mean that I have no right to be here or to express my beliefs. As I have said, I have been involved directly, though not physically, with abortion. If you took the time to read my posts on other threads about abortion you would have found that I have posted links to websites detailing the development of a fetus during pregnancy. I am not making a baseless argument.

Though I doubt many really need to know, I will start with my back round. I feel that it will add cohesion to my thoughts, opinions, views and beliefs.

I am 32 years old, I am considered to be white. I am part of the 3rd American generation of a German family that immigrated to this country during the late 1800's, post civil war. In Germany my family was not nobility however we have a coat of arms and our sir name means dweller of the battlefield.

I am the youngest son of a U.S. Army Airborne Ranger who held the rank of Master Sergeant. He and his 4 brothers fought in WWII and the Korean war, except one who died manning the nose gun of a bomber of which class I am not sure of. My father was retired from the military and was 54 when I was born in 1973.

My mother who was of Hungarian and Turkish decent was 16 years my father’s junior and at one time was his step daughter. My father was originally married to my grandmother who from a previous marriage of her own had my mother. As a result there is a deep rift within my family and we are spread across the country. I do not know many of my relatives. My mother was 38 when I was born. I am grateful that she didn't have an abortion when she found out about what was to become me. However had she chose to do so I would not know and I have faith that my conscious self or soul would have found another vessel to live in, though I would be a different person with different parents due to their genes and the environment I would have grown up in.

Both of my parents are now deceased. My father died during open heart surgery in 1986 at the age of 68 when I was 13. My mother died in 1997 at the age of 62 due to a severe brain hemorrhage that occurred during open heart surgery, I was 24. She was in a coma for 2 weeks and on life support. My brothers, sister and I discontinued the use of the machine that supported her life. She lived on her own for about 13 hours then succumbed to the severe brain damage caused by the complication. I believe that she was dead before we took her off of life support. It was macabre and disturbing to hold a vigil for two weeks over her empty body.

I have come face to face with death; it has only reinforced my belief in the living soul, though I did not grow up with religion as an influence in my life. My parents subscribed to the Lutheran Church before I was born but left their congregation due to the social acceptance of status quos in the organization. They did not believe that people should be so bold in the eyes of God. They did not instill in me their beliefs or take me to church. People like you would call me a heathen as I am not baptized or confirmed.

I do have spirituality and it comes naturally to me. Out of a thirst for knowledge I have read many books regarding religion and have studied, on my own, the works of Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, and Hindu philosophies. I am not asking to be saved; I do not believe that I need to be. When I was a child I asked my parents about God. They simply told me that god is everywhere and in everything. A little later I asked why we didn’t go to church like my friends’ families did. They simply told me that God does not require people to worship in a church or to pray to idols like the cross. Belief and faith are enough.

Of course that’s not much but I have developed my own beliefs. I believe that everything even rocks are the make up of God. I believe that God created us within its image and that means God is the universe. I believe the physical existence of god is the collective of everything known to the universe and the living energy that is within all things. I believe that I have lived before and will again. And when I had questioned myself about my immortal soul, I got nothing more than a feeling deep inside that I can’t fully describe but put my doubts to rest. I feel that I am very enlightened because I know that attaining true love and the understanding of it is the ultimate goal in life.

I do not believe that God is a man. I do not believe that God rewards people by answering their prayers or for worshiping it. I do not believe that God punishes its creations for sin or for being “immoral” (these are the creations of man) or not believing in it at all. There is no hell, I believe that if there is punishment at all then it is carried out it the next life as a reincarnated being. Please do not misunderstand me. It is not my intention to infer that you or any one else is wrong in having a differing belief. As I said before, belief and faith are enough.

The fact that death is involved in abortion is not the question of this issue. It is the death of what that is the question. In other threads I have posted my beliefs about life and when that begins in propagation; I have actually said that it does occur while in the womb. I think that after 11 weeks when the fetus begins to seriously develop a brain for its soul to live in is when an unborn child becomes a person worthy of life.

I know that statement is contradictory to what I have said before in this thread. But what is missing is that I also believe that even if the unborn child has a soul at any time while in the womb where it develops; it is still at the mercy of its mother’s will and is not entirely it’s own being. It is fully dependent on its mother’s body for nutrition and safety. And if there is a problem with anything in which it gets from its mother or with her body, or even its own development, it may terminate by itself. It was not immaculately conceived, it was created by its parents when the reproductive organisms containing their genetic information, that their bodies made, combined. It knows no government, or right or wrong, it does not know of itself, of sin or of morals of freedom or slavery until it is born out of the womb and into the world.

Murder in my mind is a heinous crime. I certainly wouldn’t like my life to be robbed of me at this time. However because I believe I will live on after the death of my body the crime isn’t really about my loss. The crime is most egregious to the people who love me and would have to go on without me as my life has been taken from them; they would be the true victims of my murderer. And they would seek justice for their loss not mine because I am not truly dead.

Therefore if a mother and father decide that they do not want a child of their creation to fully develop it cannot be murder because there is no unacceptable loss to them. And if later on, like you and me, they believe it was a mistake then they are victims of themselves, not the people who saw fit to allow them to have the choice between stopping the development of their unborn child and carrying it until it is born. Ultimately they have to take responsibility for what they have done. But they can comfort themselves in knowing that they didn’t truly kill their child because its soul or its energy lives on.

I realize that this will not change your beliefs and that is not my goal. I do hope that you understand me now and perhaps you will allow me a little respect in the future. Also you ask what I do not tolerate. I do not tolerate intolerance. I’ll have to get back to you on how that is even possible. :doh
 
Navy Pride said:
To me it has very little to do with vengence..It has everything to do with justice.........
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ehem, pardon me, but bullshit. It has everything to do with vengeance. It is definitive vengeance. Call it by its name. We don't rape rapists do we?
 

Coming from such a paragon of respected & thoughtful opinions on this forum I take that as a compliment.
 
mixedmedia said:
Coming from such a paragon of respected & thoughtful opinions on this forum I take that as a compliment.
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And I apologize for saying that.


But it's really hard to talk to someone who shows nothing but derision for you and your beliefs. Isn't it, Navy Pride?
 

I don't know what part of being born you don't understand. Furthermore if the premature child was not incubated or cared for in anyway after delivery, because it not fully developed it would die.


My neice was born at 21 ½ weeks, she is now 13 years old. She wasn’t a child when she was born? How ridiculous. Listen to yourself.
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I am and I have been consistent this whole time.



Its not the same, no one has held a gun to your head and told you to have an abortion. And it is not my morals or the those of Pro-Choice supporters that are imposed upon the unborn child. The morals imposed are those of the unborn child's parents, who's body is fully in their control, which they would will upon it whether they could go to a doctor to do it or not.

I apologize. I do not want to upset you. But it is you and your group which intend to impose your morals upon society. You wish to control what cannot be controlled.

I’m sick you say?……….I might be sick but I am educated on this issue, which clearly you are NOT.
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[/QUOTE]

I apologize for my accusation.

Oh and about those babies being saved from a dead mother. Would a baby deliver itself if the mother's body was not discovered within a few hours of her death. Or would it remain alive inside the dead mother until her body was found?

Forget it I know the answer.
 

Not a deterrent I can tell you that the murderer or rapist who is executed is deterred...........He will never rape or murder again.......

I might also add there have been criminals who moved to states without the death penalty to commit their crimes because they knew they could never be executed...........
 
I was almost swayed in to the belief that maybe Tookie Williams should be granted Clemency, then I found out this, He Has Never Owned Up To The Killings!:shock:
 
Deegan said:
I was almost swayed in to the belief that maybe Tookie Williams should be granted Clemency, then I found out this, He Has Never Owned Up To The Killings!:shock:
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Apparenty he raped several of his fellow inmates and threw feces at them. He also hasn't renounced his gang membership to this day and continues to go by his gang name (Tookie) despite speaking out against gangs.

Technically I'm against the death penalty but at this point, I hope Arnie gives the green light to terminate him.
 
Deegan said:
I was almost swayed in to the belief that maybe Tookie Williams should be granted Clemency, then I found out this, He Has Never Owned Up To The Killings!:shock:
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Actually this particular person has left such a legacy behind (forming a major gang which has cost so many more lives) him not including the murders he committed on his own that I am almost swayed into believing that he should be executed. But it's on the governator's plate now.
 
Saboteur

“I apologize for my abrasiveness in this matter and in my response to you. However I hope that you realize that this is an important issue to me and the former was the result if that.”

I apologize as well. Abortion a topic and issue that I believe in with all my heart as I too have been involved both physically and mentally with abortion. It is a topic that people all over the world debate and argue over. Sigh………and well, it can get heated. I do not judge your heart……..I do question what you say, please understand that.

Thank you very much for sharing your personal story. What we have to understand here, is that we all are people with families and views and HEARTS. We are loved by God every one of us. I can tell that you care. And I hope you too realize that I care as well. But abortion is murder in my opinion.


Speaking of Hungary. I have a Hungarian hockey player living with me right now. He and my son are on the same Jr. Hockey team……..I love his accent.

I grew up in a loving family that taught me about God. I accepted Christ when I was young but did not start walking the faith until September 11, 2001. I think we all can remember what happened that day. I turn 50 this month………I’m not to happy about this, but what can I do? I lost my beloved mother two months ago and I am trying to find some peace without her. I know she is in heaven but I want her here with me.
Lately I cry a lot………daily………she knew how much I suffered from the abortion I had and she encouraged me to work and witness to people about abortion and my experience.

My abortion was 25 years ago. I thought of the “thing” inside me as a pollywog not really worth much. I was a feminist……….and thought abortion was fine, my right.

Well I walked in and handed over the money, got the abortion and went on with my life. I married a few years later (the child I carried inside me that I aborted was my husbands) I then had two wonderful children, (now 21 and 24 years old).

My sister however had a child 13 years ago. She was a preemie……..weighed one pound 3 ounces, and was born at 21 ½ weeks. I remember walking in and seeing her in the neonatal unit. She was shorter than a telephone receiver and you could literally see the blood running through her veins. As I stood over her, I changed. I got my first panic attack that day. I remember the numbness in my arms. I realized as I looked at her………what I had done a few years earlier. I realized all over the world children were being aborted older than what she was. I layed in bed at night and could remember the abortion room, the doctor,(he never said a word to me) the noise of the machine…… and the horrible physical pain……..

My life changed after her birth. I became suicidal………I sought counseling……..nothing absolutely nothing helped. My husband didn’t get it, he didn’t understand. To make a long story short, I accepted Christ and He forgave me……..but I knew I had to do something to share my story. I work trying to educate woman, especially young girls about the true facts of abortion. Abortion kills.

My neice was a miracle and still is today at 13 years old. She is perfectly healthy and tops in her class. She is a constant reminder of how precious life is……………

God Bless
 
I understand what your saying. What you said is true, and it is bad. It is also bad that we have executed innocent people, mentally deficient and quite possibly in the future, children. As I said, it does not address why we have murders. And if you do any research into this subject, you will find that it is not administered fairly accross the board. It is very racial and class biased. That, is very wrong.
 


I am pro-life and pro-death penalty.

I disagree with your last statement.If if life in prison was worse than death then why do death row inmates use up all their appeals to buy more time and why have all the lifers in prison not killed themselves?
 

Thank you for sharing your story with us........There are thousands of stories like yours out there where women had abortions and regretted it the rest of their lives.......Even the woman who was corerced by radical feminists to be the plaintiff in Roe V Wade has since said it is the worst decision she ever made in her life and she regrets making it ever day............

People that are pro abortion/choice should be forced to see these little babies that are aborted..Maybe the reality of that would make some of them change their mind on this barbaric act of murder......It may be legal but make no mistake about it....Its still murder......

God Bless you...........
 
Navy Pride thanks.......

"People that are pro abortion/choice should be forced to see these little babies that are aborted..Maybe the reality of that would make some of them change their mind on this "

I do believe this would be one way to get people to see what the reality of abortion really is. They show teenagers pictures of crashes and accidents when they go through drivers education..........why not show pictures of abortions.

When I work the right to life booth at various events........we have these pictures available to anyone that wants to see them. We dont as a rule have them out with the other literature. Why? Because we have people from all ages........look at the literature. These pictures are so graphic that it would be sure to traumatize some people.
I usually show them to teenage kids who think they have seen it all. They start out mouthy and combative and leave speechless.
They have NO CLUE WHATSOEVER.

God Bless.
 

Think of it, there are 3,500 abortions performed every day in this country..Before Roe V Wade was enacted there were 10,000 a year.......That is a staggering increase........

3,500 babies murdered in the womb.......Who knows, future presidents, scientists, inventors, every possible vocation, their lives snuffed out for no reason except as a method for birth control or if a woman had a bad hair day...............Its really so sad...........
 

I'm glad to hear you are conscious of the very young seeing these pictures. There was a small billboard in the front parking lot of a privately owned business near my home that portrayed two abortion pictures - until someone had the good sense to tear it down in the middle of the night. I can tell you, it infuriated me that the same folks who, most likely, expressed such outrage at the split second flash of Janet Jackson's tit during the Superbowl, apparently experienced no disquiet at all about me having to explain those photos to my six-year-old on the way to school.
 

I doubt very seriously if your son even noticed it........That said you might be surprised what a 6 year old can learn in our liberated public schools these days.......
 
Navy Pride said:
I doubt very seriously if your son even noticed it........That said you might be surprised what a 6 year old can learn in our liberated public schools these days.......
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Please don't respond to my posts Navy Pride. You have no idea what occurred between me and my daughter. She is very bright and picked it out right away. Just, please, let other people respond to my posts. I have no interest in discussing this with you.
 


I apologize, I meant no offense..........Its just that abortion is a very passionate issue with me..............
 
You silly people with your "Pro-life" title. As if anyone was "Anti-life", or is that the pro-death penalty crowd? Can you be pro-life and anti-life at the same time?
 
Navy Pride said:
Thank you for sharing your story with us........There are thousands of stories like yours out there where women had abortions and regretted it the rest of their lives.......
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And even many thousands MORE who have not regretted it, for whom the overwhelming emotion was that of relief.
People that are pro abortion/choice should be forced to see these little babies that are aborted..
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Are we back to that nonsense again, the idea of 'seeing"? Emotional claptrap. I have seen aborted fetuses. I have also seen open heart surgery and amputations, those are MUCH MORE bloody and disturbing. What is it about the idea prolifers hold that if they spew enough fetal porn, we somehow "see the errors of our way" I, for one, am not basing my views on emotional platitudes, which the prolife argument seem to ONLY deal with.
Maybe the reality of that would make some of them change their mind on this barbaric act of murder......
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yadda, yadda, yadda. More silly hyperbole unrelated to reality. What makes you think that emotional, ignorant "just because I say so' ranting are making inroads with anybody?
 
 
Navy Pride said:
3,500 babies murdered in the womb.......
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Ah, more deceptive hyperbole. More falsehoods; prolife frankly can't make an argument without them. PATHETIC!
Who knows, future presidents, scientists, inventors, every possible vocation,
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Or future hitlers, stalins, mcveighs, Bin ladins etc.

Nice what-if silly games. Very little relevance to the real world. Again pathetic. Emotional platitudes with no substance.
their lives snuffed out for no reason except as a method for birth control or if a woman had a bad hair day...............Its really so sad...........
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Nothing sad about it, other than prolifers having restricted sex-ed and contraception to the point where an unnecessary, unwanted pregnancy occurred.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
You silly people with your "Pro-life" title. As if anyone was "Anti-life", or is that the pro-death penalty crowd? Can you be pro-life and anti-life at the same time?
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Some people have said they are pro life and pro choice.......
 
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