Where do you stand on abortion/deathpenalty?

[mixedmedia]

I support it. I feel it's another area the government does not belong. Doctors who fulfill their patient's request to die have been way to demonized IMO.

I agree. A person's wish to live only in a manner they see as livable should be respected. End of story. It isn't anyone else's business.

 

[The Real McCoy]

I agree. A person's wish to live only in a manner they see as livable should be respected. End of story. It isn't anyone else's business.

I also feel people like Terri Shiavo should be put to rest through some sort of injection rather than the current (and brutal) method of starvation/dehydration. Conscious or not, that's just WRONG.

 

[doughgirl]

"So do I understand correctly that you oppose any form of birth control?"

Abstinence, condoms and natural methods of birth regulation which are based upon self observation and the use of infertile periods.

The Real Mccoy says, "I also feel people like Terri Shiavo should be put to rest through some sort of injection rather than the current (and brutal) method of starvation/dehydration. Conscious or not, that's just WRONG."

Put to rest? ha ha You mean put to death don't you? What is it called when the heart stops.......not rest, but death.

So as long as ya kill the person fast and quick and painless the murder is ok with you? ha ha

THEY BOTH ARE WRONG.

Mixedmedia says,
"I agree. A person's wish to live only in a manner they see as livable should be respected. End of story. It isn't anyone else's business."

Then any person who wants to take drugs and kill themsleves should be allowed? Any teenager or anyone of legal age should by law be able to have a doctor put them to death? You made no note of wether a person had to be terminal........but if your pro-choice it shouldnt matter right? Its no ones business.

In the future you will see the battle in this country start to get heated over doctor assisted suicide. It has just started in my state on a huge level.

Many of these House Bills being presented in states around the country are deeply flawed. The Oregon Bill was and is flawed. It is a vehicle for abuse. If you look into Oregon’s it would really surprise you.

For example…..The person who prescribes the deadly dose is in many cases not even the family doctor but one from a select group of MD euthanasia proponents who have never even met the patient. This consulting physician is NOT REQUIRED to have expertise in oncology, pain control, or to be a specialist in the patient’s terminal case. The patient is NOT REQUIRED to notify the next of kin-parent-spouse-thus depriving the patient of any source of emotional support. NO PSYCHIATRIC CONSULTATION is required, even though most studies show that at least 94% of ALL suicides are people profoundly depressed.
“Enduring request” may mean a request for death on only two occasions. (oral and written) Fifteen days must elapse between the oral request for death and 48 hours before the written request, the actual writing of the prescription. THE WAITING PERIOD MAY BE DISPOSED OF WITH IF THE PHYSICIAN DECIDES THE WAIT WOULD ONLY SERVE TO EXTEND THE SUFFERING. Thus you might be able to walk in and demand the service the very same day.
INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE REQUIRED TO PAY FULL BENEFITS AND MAY NOT ASK THE INSURED WHETHER HE HAS REQUESTED SUICIDE BEFORE ISSUING A POLICY ON HIS LIFE.
A physician unwilling to help kill a patient on request MUST properly transfer the patient to a euthanasia provider. They force the physician opposed to actually hire the hit man.

PAS deaths are cloaked in secrecy. The information is NOT available to the public and the name is withheld. Under Oregon’s law there is NO penalty for not reporting. So if your doctor helps you die, he need not report it.

Instead of destroying life we must destroy the conditions that make life intolerable. Treating pain instead of killing the patient is the only solution.
This could easily get out of hand and end up like Hitlers Nazi euthanasia program.

I would have thought that we as a nation would have learned lessons from the Nazis regarding human life. and unless we remember and are aware of the grievous mistakes of the past and how they were performed and the rationalizations and language used to justify them, we wont be attuned to what is going on today. We can't repeat the atrocities of the past. Obviously we have not learned any lesson at all.

 

[Hoot]

I think, Doughgirl, what many of us believe is that we simply want the government out of our lifes. Isn't that the republican mantra? Smaller government? Why is it that conservatives want more and larger intrusive government into each of our lifes?

I voted pro choice and pro death penalty.

If someone kills a loved one of mine, I want them put to death...I can't get past that belief. Sorry. I also believe they should have the full benefit of dna testing with solid, incontrovertible proof of guilt.

As far as abortion...no one is for abortion...no woman wants to go through an abortion, but there must be allowances made....therefore, abortion can never be illegal.

Besides, with the morning after pill, plan B as it's being called now, abortion will never go away. Even if abortion is outlawed, these pills will find a way onto the black market.

My whole problem with the religious right, and most pro-life conservatives is that...

They refuse to attack and address the problem at the beginning...before pregnancy occurs. They are generally against wide spread availability of contraceptives and sex education in schools...all things that could prevent the need for abortions in the first place...a hypocritical stance, IMHO.

 

[mixedmedia]

Mixedmedia says,
"I agree. A person's wish to live only in a manner they see as livable should be respected. End of story. It isn't anyone else's business."

Then any person who wants to take drugs and kill themsleves should be allowed? Any teenager or anyone of legal age should by law be able to have a doctor put them to death? You made no note of wether a person had to be terminal........but if your pro-choice it shouldnt matter right? Its no ones business.

I specifically noted that the question, for this purpose, pertained to cases of the terminally ill or severely disabled.

And I don't consider myself pro-choice.

How is it your business if someone terminally ill wishes to die 6 months, 6 days or 6 hours earlier than they would naturally? You have your faith, but it gives you no power over the lives of others. This is where I come into conflict with the Christian viewpoint on life. As I said earlier to qualify my stance on abortion, I believe man should always default to the sparing of another's life. I grant myself no special accord over the lives of others based solely on the content of my own belief. Should healthy people be encouraged or patronized in their attempts to take their own life? Of course not. To lower the argument to that level shows me that you can find no argument to justify imposing your beliefs on the suffering of others.

For example…..The person who prescribes the deadly dose is in many cases not even the family doctor but one from a select group of MD euthanasia proponents who have never even met the patient. This consulting physician is NOT REQUIRED to have expertise in oncology, pain control, or to be a specialist in the patient’s terminal case.

Why should they be? Do we require anesthesiologists to be experts in oncology? What MDs are specialists in pain control? RNs can administer pain relief. If a person is diagnosed with a terminal disease I think it's pretty safe to assume they have seen a specialist.

The patient is NOT REQUIRED to notify the next of kin-parent-spouse-thus depriving the patient of any source of emotional support.

So? If the patient CHOOSES not to notify, how is that depriving them of emotional support? Don't you mean conflicting opinions? In hopes of depriving the patient of the right to self-determination?

NO PSYCHIATRIC CONSULTATION is required, even though most studies show that at least 94% of ALL suicides are people profoundly depressed.

We are talking about people who are dying. Not healthy people.

“Enduring request” may mean a request for death on only two occasions. (oral and written) Fifteen days must elapse between the oral request for death and 48 hours before the written request, the actual writing of the prescription. THE WAITING PERIOD MAY BE DISPOSED OF WITH IF THE PHYSICIAN DECIDES THE WAIT WOULD ONLY SERVE TO EXTEND THE SUFFERING. Thus you might be able to walk in and demand the service the very same day.

So?

INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE REQUIRED TO PAY FULL BENEFITS AND MAY NOT ASK THE INSURED WHETHER HE HAS REQUESTED SUICIDE BEFORE ISSUING A POLICY ON HIS LIFE.

Money now?

A physician unwilling to help kill a patient on request MUST properly transfer the patient to a euthanasia provider. They force the physician opposed to actually hire the hit man.

Hit man? No bias there.

PAS deaths are cloaked in secrecy. The information is NOT available to the public and the name is withheld. Under Oregon’s law there is NO penalty for not reporting. So if your doctor helps you die, he need not report it.

Why should the information be made available to you? No one's medical information is available to the public. And if a person is dead, what kind of special reporting needs to be done? You want to know which doctors are performing euthanasia? Why is that?

Instead of destroying life we must destroy the conditions that make life intolerable. Treating pain instead of killing the patient is the only solution.
This could easily get out of hand and end up like Hitlers Nazi euthanasia program.

I would have thought that we as a nation would have learned lessons from the Nazis regarding human life. and unless we remember and are aware of the grievous mistakes of the past and how they were performed and the rationalizations and language used to justify them, we wont be attuned to what is going on today. We can't repeat the atrocities of the past. Obviously we have not learned any lesson at all.

I thought your arguments on abortion were fair and equitable. You're kind of stretching it on this one. The discrepancy is understandable. It is much more difficult to quantify a stance that assumes the right to power over another person's right to live and die as they see fit than it is to take a stance against abortion.

 

[dragonslayer]

Pro Choice and Pro Death penalty:

You do the crime ya better be prepared to to the time. Or get the needle. We need to streamline the appeals process and not have these guys on deathrow so long .... Ya did it? .. fine. ......Heres your needle......NEXT!!!!!

We don't need to short cut the appeal process, just last month it was discovered that another innocent man had been executed in Texas. He had been dead for a couple of years when other man confessed.

I don't personally believe in abortion, but it is not my life and not my decision.

 

[Navy Pride]

I think, Doughgirl, what many of us believe is that we simply want the government out of our lifes. Isn't that the republican mantra? Smaller government? Why is it that conservatives want more and larger intrusive government into each of our lifes?

I voted pro choice and pro death penalty.

If someone kills a loved one of mine, I want them put to death...I can't get past that belief. Sorry. I also believe they should have the full benefit of dna testing with solid, incontrovertible proof of guilt.

As far as abortion...no one is for abortion...no woman wants to go through an abortion, but there must be allowances made....therefore, abortion can never be illegal.

Besides, with the morning after pill, plan B as it's being called now, abortion will never go away. Even if abortion is outlawed, these pills will find a way onto the black market.

My whole problem with the religious right, and most pro-life conservatives is that...

They refuse to attack and address the problem at the beginning...before pregnancy occurs. They are generally against wide spread availability of contraceptives and sex education in schools...all things that could prevent the need for abortions in the first place...a hypocritical stance, IMHO.

Hoot, talk about a hypocrtical stance.......You say you want the government out of our life when it comes to the death penalty but you want it in our life when it comes to abortion and Roe V Wade.......

 

[The Real McCoy]

The Real Mccoy says, "I also feel people like Terri Shiavo should be put to rest through some sort of injection rather than the current (and brutal) method of starvation/dehydration. Conscious or not, that's just WRONG."

Put to rest? ha ha You mean put to death don't you? What is it called when the heart stops.......not rest, but death.

Rest... as in Rest In Peace. I feel "rest" is an appropriate term for people suffering physical and emotional pain from terminal diseases. They should have the right to control their life as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Why must the government impose morality on us, isn't that God's job?

So as long as ya kill the person fast and quick and painless the murder is ok with you? ha ha

THEY BOTH ARE WRONG.

That's up to God to decide, NOT the federal government.

 

[Loxd4]

pro-life and anti-death penalty....i dont know what that makes me...but i believe we can get an eye 4 an eye another way...make the prisoner work...like slaves.....par them up in 3's...if they run...shot all three in the head...or all in the knee...or just one....that should stop them from running....and if you have to let them make there death penalty....they run they get shot...in the head...how about that

 

[Saboteur]

doughgirl, I was prepared to answer your recent posts point by point. But I realized that you do not want to debate or learn. You just want to pretend to be a victim and spew the rhetoric of your ideology.

But the truth is plain to see. You attacked me, and it is you who wants to force your morality upon the american people.

Obesessivly using the scenario of rape to question my morality is, to me, a desperate attempt to get the attention off of your severely flawed beliefs and somehow discredit mine.

I'd go on but I think you've done enough to expose yourself as a hypocrite and I won't insult the intellegence of the other forum members here by continuing to play your game.

But thank you for your participation. I appreciate your excersizing your right to express your views.


There is one statement that you made which concerns me though;

I cant tolerate this behavior, the viewpoint that says, lets kill the unborn child, they dont have the right to live. I'm gonna do something about it.

Please, just don't give in to your latent psychosis and hurt someone in your fight against american freedom.

I will pray for you.

 

[Saboteur]

The "right to die" would be a suitable topic for inclusion on this thread.

What is everyone's position on a person's right to choose suicide? For the sake of keeping the question as benign as possible, let's say in the case of terminal illness or severe disability.

I agree, the terminally ill should be able to end their life with dignity and not become a burden to their family emotionally or monitarily if they so choose.

 

[doughgirl]

Saboteur............


You like many can't come up with any other explanation........that is why you will not answer the questions. They speak for themselves.

I am trying to expose the horrors of abortion. It is difficult to do this when those there are those who think that it is perfectly fine to dismember an innocent creature alive..........it is you who fail to see the medical evidence and proof of what abortion really is.

You said, "doughgirl, I was prepared to answer your recent posts point by point. But I realized that you do not want to debate or learn. You just want to pretend to be a victim and spew the rhetoric of your ideology."

I am not a victim. I site medical facts that are true today. I once murdered a tiny innocent creature. I thought like you it should be my choice. I had no idea that a heart starts to beat as early as 1 month. I was an uneducated fool and I lived with that fact for 25 years. Then the light went on and I educated myself. I MURDERED I TOOK THE LIFE OF MY UNBORN CHILD. It is this creature who was my victim.

The rhetoric of my ideology?............. My friend it is fact. You are not educatated as to the development of the unborn child at different stages. You need to research and do some soul searching. There are hundreds upon hundreds of books and websites with up to date information available.


Go ahead and run, I pray that one day some light will come on and you will see what abortion is. that you will work as I do to prevent this from happening.

It shouldnt be a free choice for anyone, (in this case a woman)..........to do this violent act.

"I'd go on but I think you've done enough to expose yourself as a hypocrite and I won't insult the intellegence of the other forum members here by continuing to play your game."

I hope I have given some statistic to show someone the horrors of abortion to help one become educated. If I could prevent just one child from being slaughtered all would be worth it.

You said, "I'd go on but I think you've done enough to expose yourself as a hypocrite and I won't insult the intellegence of the other forum members here by continuing to play your game."

Seems to me everyone else can hold their own on here and they are intelligent enough to take the hard questions I ask. This is not a game.......there is no debate on this website more important that the one of abortion. It is the biggest debate of our time. If you think its some game then so be it. You have to live with yourself.


And I'll tell you this much, I will never run, I will always stay to ask questions and to answer those who ask me ones... even if I am laughed at like you laugh at me.

And please do pray for me........as I will pray for you. God hears prayers and I know He hears mine. I know He thinks what I am doing is worthy and right.
You're prayers strenghten me. Thanks.

Do not just pray for me however......pray for those woman who now as we speak are walking into abortion clinics around the world. Pray for the unborn children who are about to die.

 

[doughgirl]

Hoot says,"As far as abortion...no one is for abortion...no woman wants to go through an abortion, but there must be allowances made....therefore, abortion can never be illegal."


Yes there are many people who do not think abortion is bad and use it for birth control. Look at Guttmaucher statistics. Look particularly at the stats on repeat abortions. Look at some posters on here...........what they are really saying is "Gee I know abortion kills............BUT IT STILL IS OK, MURDER IS OK BECAUSE THE UNBORN IS SO SMALL AND IS NOT VIABLE. AND ITS ONLY A TINY HEART THAT IS BEATING........A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL HER OWN CHILD, JSUT BECAUSE THAT CHILD IS USING HER BODY TO GROW.

No allowance must be made for murder. I too want government out of my life. But any civilized society has laws to protect the innocent. If we did not have them then we would live in chaos.

Do you think personally abortion is murder? Do you know when the heart beats of the child in the womb? Do you think anyone has the right to stop this heart?

There are many laws that are on the books to protect us. Stealing for one. Would it be ok if someone who needed food broke into your home and took what you had?

Drugs......Why shoudlnt all drugs be legalized? Why shoudlnt someone be able to both seel and buy drugs, if it has no affect on anyone? Its their body.

Prostitution.......why not make that legal.........

I mean I could go on and on.......

The difference about abortion is..........abortion stops a heart from beating........now you tell me what that is?

 

[Saboteur]

Saboteur............


You like many can't come up with any other explanation........that is why you will not answer the questions. They speak for themselves.

I am trying to expose the horrors of abortion. It is difficult to do this when those there are those who think that it is perfectly fine to dismember an innocent creature alive..........it is you who fail to see the medical evidence and proof of what abortion really is.

You said, "doughgirl, I was prepared to answer your recent posts point by point. But I realized that you do not want to debate or learn. You just want to pretend to be a victim and spew the rhetoric of your ideology."

I am not a victim. I site medical facts that are true today. I once murdered a tiny innocent creature. I thought like you it should be my choice. I had no idea that a heart starts to beat as early as 1 month. I was an uneducated fool and I lived with that fact for 25 years. Then the light went on and I educated myself. I MURDERED I TOOK THE LIFE OF MY UNBORN CHILD. It is this creature who was my victim.

The rhetoric of my ideology?............. My friend it is fact. You are not educatated as to the development of the unborn child at different stages. You need to research and do some soul searching. There are hundreds upon hundreds of books and websites with up to date information available.


Go ahead and run, I pray that one day some light will come on and you will see what abortion is. that you will work as I do to prevent this from happening.

It shouldnt be a free choice for anyone, (in this case a woman)..........to do this violent act.

"I'd go on but I think you've done enough to expose yourself as a hypocrite and I won't insult the intellegence of the other forum members here by continuing to play your game."

I hope I have given some statistic to show someone the horrors of abortion to help one become educated. If I could prevent just one child from being slaughtered all would be worth it.

You said, "I'd go on but I think you've done enough to expose yourself as a hypocrite and I won't insult the intellegence of the other forum members here by continuing to play your game."

Seems to me everyone else can hold their own on here and they are intelligent enough to take the hard questions I ask. This is not a game.......there is no debate on this website more important that the one of abortion. It is the biggest debate of our time. If you think its some game then so be it. You have to live with yourself.


And I'll tell you this much, I will never run, I will always stay to ask questions and to answer those who ask me ones... even if I am laughed at like you laugh at me.

And please do pray for me........as I will pray for you. God hears prayers and I know He hears mine. I know He thinks what I am doing is worthy and right.
You're prayers strenghten me. Thanks.

Do not just pray for me however......pray for those woman who now as we speak are walking into abortion clinics around the world. Pray for the unborn children who are about to die.

You asked for it!

 

[Saboteur]

Saboteur says, "TOLERANCE IS FREEDOM!"

tol•er•ance
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : ENDURANCE, FORTITUDE, STAMINA
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION


free•dom
Pronunciation: 'frE-d&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d : EASE, FACILITY <spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE

Contrary to popular definitions, true tolerance means "putting up with error"-NOT "being accepting of ALL views." By definition what we tolerate is what we dissaprove of or what we believe to be false and erroneous. If dissagreement did not exist, tolerance would be unnecessary. It is only because differences exist between people that tolerance becomes necessary.

Ah relativism....one of the ironies of relativism is that it exalts tolerance to the status of an absolute. I can interact with a Muslim while still believing on rational grounds that he is mistaken. True tolerance grants people the right and opportunity to dissent, to disagree. It doenst mean I have to sit by and tolerate the behavior however. I can try to change if.

You however think I am intolerant because I think abortion is murder and I am not pro-choice. You are pro-abortion and pro-choice and I think you are wrong. You criticize me for this view. But I ask you this.....Are you being accepting of my position?

You’ve just defined the meaning of tolerance the popular way. I do not wish to discuss at length my meaning of tolerance being freedom so I will ask you to read the definitions above. I think you are smart enough to make the connection. As for your position, I am accepting of it in that I understand it. What you have mistaken for criticism on my part of you is really my defense against your attack of the position I take and that you think is wrong.

Are you being tolerant towards me? The relativist simply cant be accepting of all positions as true without falling into contradictions.

I believe I am tolerant towards you in that I haven’t done anything against you except have a belief that differs from yours. You may think that there is a paradox in tolerance and the view of the relativist but I offer you then the paradox that is the United States of America and ask you; Do you really think you have the right to go beyond the laws of this country that protect everyone without discrimination and put a stop to the behavior you deem wrong or mistaken without consequence?

I believe God makes tolerance intelligible, because God is the source of truth and because I believe God made human beings in His own likeness. For those who do not believe in God I would ask them this........ If tolerance is a value, FREEDOM as you call it, (it isnt obvious from nature), and if there is no God, and we are just hunks of cells, how could tolerance be an objective value at all? In the absence of truth, power really is the only game in town. And today power is being waged against the innocent unborn child.

I believe as well in a higher intelligence with a goal for creation however I also believe that while some things may be predestined that there is still free will both in humans and nature. These are obvious truths of the world and the life in it. Therefore tolerance is a value in that the truth of free will exists and goes on without hindrance.

Why respect anothers personal FREEDOM if objective truth doesnt exist?

Irrelevant, all truth exists without God. The law of both God and Man dictate that one will respect another’s personal freedom without question. That is the truth. God exist because people have faith that God exists and that is how god wants it. That is the truth.

.

Across our campuses in this country cries are heard against the evils of Western civilization. These radicals who advocate multicultural curriculums really have no grounds for condemning the West if MORALITY is relative. Because how could morally relativistic feminists condemn abortions based on sex selection in countries like India and China, where girls are killed on a daily basis in favor of boys? .[/QUOTE]

Morality is not relative however few things in this world are as cut and dry as Life and Death.

You say I am not tolerant. Should we have tolerated Hitler?

The people of the United States were barely aware of Hitler’s persecution of the jews and gays, political opponents and artists. And 80% of our nation did not want to get involved in what was to become WWII until after the Japanese bombing of Pear Harbor. Yesterday was Pearl Harbor day I hope you remembered those who fought for the freedom of our country so that it could be as it is today. It wasn’t until after WWII that the full extent of Hitler’s evil was discovered.

KuKluxKlan,

I dislike the Ku Klux Klan but I am not about to sacrifice my first amendment right so that they can be disbanded. So yes, as much I don’t like it, we do now tolerate the KKK and we will continue so long as this country is free.

Pol Pot? .

I am not fully versed on Pol Pot and cannot comment.

Would you classify this tolerance as.......FREEDOM? Good?
Is there any moral difference between Mother Teresa and Hitler?

Tolerance has a part in freedom and visa versa so yes it is good.

Why? should we turn our country into a totalitarian state of servitude based on Judeo-Christian oppression?

I'll finish by saying this......posing these questions.

You think it is morally wrong to impose your values on someone else-that this shouldnt be done? (It is wrong for me to judge those who get abortions)
I would ask you then.... Who are you to impose your morality on those who want to impose their morality on others?

Being Pro-Choice does not impose anything (have you been forced to have an abortion?) and morality has little to do with it. I don’t want anyone to have an abortion if they choose not too. I would prefer contraception over using abortion as birth control. I would love for every 12 year old that has been raped by there father and is carrying his incestuous child to give it up for adoption. However not every one wants these things for themselves. And I do not think that they should be forced to do something they do not want to because it is intolerable to people like you who only have a choice not a mandate.

Last question.........if your sister were being raped would you stand by and do nothing because you wouldnt want to impose your morality on the rapist?

Of course I would not stand by, and it isn’t a question of imposing my morality on a rapist because a rapist does not value morality. Therefore he forfeits a right to defend his actions by claiming that it is his moral belief which justifies them. And I can deliver justice using the authority of law as is myh right.

I would hope you would say no. That is why I will work until the day I die to stop the slaughter of the innocent, the unborn child. Work hard to change unjust laws and to educate people. I cant tolerate this behavior, the viewpoint that says, lets kill the unborn child, they dont have the right to live. I'm gonna do something about it.

So you have just backed up my view on the rape scenario you seem obsessed with and have discredited your own rationale in doing so. You can do all the work you have a right to do against what you do not agree with. I will not stop you or anyone else, I do tolerate your point of view and the mission you take in life. I do not appreciate that you think an unborn child who is not guilty of crime but not innocent of crime either (as it has no choice in, or knowledge of, right and wrong until it is born and develops a personality based on it’s genetics and environment) is slaughter when it is not it’s own person until born. Before then it is physically a part of it’s mother who has the will to end its development if she so chooses whether or not it is legal in the law of man or your God. Yet you cannot tolerate the laws of your own god and government and wish to force your morality upon those who may not even choose to excersize their right. Explain how that isn’t hypocrisy in every sense of the word!

I doubt you will. Because you haven't listened to me before nor have you answered MY questions of you.

 

[mixedmedia]

Saboteur............
I am trying to expose the horrors of abortion. It is difficult to do this when those there are those who think that it is perfectly fine to dismember an innocent creature alive..........it is you who fail to see the medical evidence and proof of what abortion really is.

Why is it that you must "expose the horrors of abortion" when you are also against the use of the less invasive and pre-fetal morning after pill as well as any type of birth control outside of condoms and periodic abstinence? What if abortion were banned upon adopting a more sensible and comprehensive program of birth control? Would you simply switch gears and turn your efforts then to the abolishment of birth control? Or do you reserve some room for compromise on these issues?

 

[Saboteur]

Saboteur says, "No I don't think it is taking a life because in most cases the life isn't developed. It is not murder and I think you are pretty disturbed... you'd rather step in a dismemberd fetus on your way to work than have it be disposed of in a respectful manner."

Ha ha.......

1. Is a persons whose heart is beating dead or alive?

2. If a persons heart is beating and you stop it, what happens to that person?

3. What is a person called who takes a life without permission from that person?

AND PLEASE TELL US WHEN THE HEART OF A FETUS STARTS BEATING.

4. Tell us when the life is developed enough not to kill it? Ha ha.....Can't wait to hear this one.


"As for the consiquences.... There isn't one day that I don't wonder who the little clump of cells that my girlfriends and I decided not to allow grow would have turned into AFTER they developed into people."

And when does a fetus turn into a "person" worthy to live in your eyes?

"And I didn't even have the abortion. I have no idea what it is like for a woman. But there must be guilt or regret sometimes."

Why? Why regret? You just said it wasn't a person, it was nothing. Why feel guilt over something that is NOTHING? Why think about your previous girlfriends abortions and what could have been?
HA HA I THINK YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

You asked me, " do you think that people who have miscarriages should be put in jail?"
Woman who have miscarriages, do not set out to kill their unborn child. Woman who get abortions do. My sister had a few miscarriages.......they spontaneously happened on their own and she did nothing on her part to kill the child.

"I'll take the nearly successful genocide of the indiginouse peoples our ancestors commited when they found this country."

That was terrible as well..............So what your saying is that because horrors were done to those people that makes it ok to do it to the unborn child? Your saying two wrongs, make a right.

You said, "I don't care... have you had an abortion?"

I posted not two sentences before this, that indeed I had had an abortion. Who is not getting it?

You also said, "Rape is bad and I would appreciate it if you would stop infering that I think otherwise."
What is so bad about rape? Then compare this to what is so bad about abortion?
Why do you feel rape is bad and abortion is acceptable?

Please.... tell me your thoughts while you were a fetus.

Were you aware of yourself?

Did you know that you were a human?

Did you know that you had 10 fingers and toes?

Did you believe in God while you were in your mother's womb?

Or did most of these things occure after you were born?

You think you have me cornered?


A fetus is a viable life when it is fully developed and has been born as a child. After that time it is wrong to kill a child which is not a fetus.

I have discussed my view on YOUR rape scenario at length which I hope you have paid attention to.

But to put it simply.

Rape is bad because the rapist imposes their actions and lack of respect for another individual on one who did not choose to have their body controlled by another.

That is why YOU are wrong and just like a rapist! Because YOU want to impose YOUR morals and actions on an individual without respect for their freedom to do with their body as they see fit.

YOU ARE SICK!

 

[Calm2Chaos]

We don't need to short cut the appeal process, just last month it was discovered that another innocent man had been executed in Texas. He had been dead for a couple of years when other man confessed.

I don't personally believe in abortion, but it is not my life and not my decision.

We most certainly do. There are certain cases out there that should be done and over with, and within 2 weeks they should be on a slab. Maybe not all cases. But I see no reason for 8 appeals for a guy who killed a 5 people in broad day light with 13 witnesses. Sorry.. Your guilty we know it. here's your needle.....NEXT!!!!

 

[Saboteur]

We most certainly do. There are certain cases out there that should be done and over with, and within 2 weeks they should be on a slab. Maybe not all cases. But I see no reason for 8 appeals for a guy who killed a 5 people in broad day light with 13 witnesses. Sorry.. Your guilty we know it. here's your needle.....NEXT!!!!

Good point. I think that appeals should be few and harder to get for those with life in prison. There is still a chance that they could be exaunerated after a convict has used up his appeals.

 

[Hornburger]

We most certainly do. There are certain cases out there that should be done and over with, and within 2 weeks they should be on a slab. Maybe not all cases. But I see no reason for 8 appeals for a guy who killed a 5 people in broad day light with 13 witnesses. Sorry.. Your guilty we know it. here's your needle.....NEXT!!!!

And what those cases that are more ambiguous? Not every case is SO obvious.

 

[doughgirl]

“sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION”

Ok it defines tolerance as “the act of allowing”…………..could our society have a tolerance for rape? Murder? Theft? Pediphilia? Would you dare ask anyone to be TOLERANT OF THESE? Then why ask someone to be tolerant of something they find to be something against their beliefs?

“Do you really think you have the right to go beyond the laws of this country that protect everyone without discrimination and put a stop to the behavior you deem wrong or mistaken without consequence?”

Yes I do. Slavery was abolished. That was a law everyone followed. Should we have tolerated slavery? Should we tolerate slavery today?

And who says I am going beyond the laws of our country. I work within those laws. I have never been arrested for anything. I work within the system. Am I working to overturn Roe, yes. Am I working to educate people to what abortion really is? Yes.
But I am doing NOTHING ILLEGAL.

“I believe as well in a higher intelligence with a goal for creation however I also believe that while some things may be predestined that there is still free will both in humans and nature. These are obvious truths of the world and the life in it. Therefore tolerance is a value in that the truth of free will exists and goes on without hindrance.”

I have no idea what your worldview is except that you are pro-abortion. I would assume your pro-choice for just about everything else based on your abortion stance. I might be wrong but this what I am taking from our conversations.
I am curious…that if you believe in God, does your God condone abortion and does your God think it ok to show free will in other areas? Is there absolute morality or free will if you think it is alright? What does your God think is wrong if anything? And what do you base this on?

“Irrelevant, all truth exists without God.”

My truth might be different than yours. I might think stealing is alright. I might think child pornography is alright. I might think incest and bestiality is alright……I might think sleeping with my neighbors spouse is alright……
Then who are you to tell me my truths are wrong?
My God tells me what is wrong? What do you base your truths on?

“I hope you remembered those who fought for the freedom of our country so that it could be as it is today. It wasn’t until after WWII that the full extent of Hitler’s evil was discovered.”

I did remember it. Last year we visited the memorial site in Hawaii. It was awesome. My family too served in the armed forces to assure that we enjoy the freedoms we do today.

“Being Pro-Choice does not impose anything (have you been forced to have an abortion?) and morality has little to do with it.’

Morality for many has a lot to do with it. Being pro-choice says, what ever the action that is being done, SHOULD BE ALLOWED. I might not do it, but it should be allowed.

“intolerable to people like you”

Are you tolerable of everything? What are you intolerable of? Are there things you do not tolerate? So you tolerate everything?

“Of course I would not stand by, and it isn’t a question of imposing my morality on a rapist because a rapist does not value morality.”

You yourself said………………… “ morality has little to do with it.” Ha ha

I could say you do not value life……….because anyone who has morals and values would not condone slaughtering, dismembering an unborn child. I could say the same to you that you would say about the rapist.

” Before then it is physically a part of it’s mother who has the will to end its development if she so chooses whether or not it is legal in the law of man or your God.”


See that is where you are wrong. It is not physically a part at all. A body part is defined by the common genetic code it shares with the rest of ites body:the unborns genetic code differs from his mothers. Every cell in its body is different than the mothers. Often times his blood type and gender is different than his mothers.
And I should remind you that half of his 46 chromosomes come from his biological father. Just as no two people have the same identical fingerprints, no two people have the same GENETIC FINGERPRINTS. If one body is inside another, but each has its own unique genetic code then there is not one person but TWO SPEARATE PEOPLE. If the womans body is the only one involved in a pregnancy then she must have two noses, four legs, two sets of fingerprints, two brains, two circulatory systems, two skeletal systems…..Half the time the mother must also have testicles. and a penis. In those 50 % of pregnancies when the child is male clearly his sexual organs are not part of his mothers body, but HIS OWN. It is CLEAR SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT THE MOTHER IS ONE DISTINCTIVE AND SELF CONTAINED PERSON AND THE CHILD IS ANOTHER.

The unborn child is only a resident of his mothers body for a brief period of time. And he will leave on his own if not aborted. How many cases have you heard of where the mother was in a fatal accident and the mother dies,,,,,,,the baby is delivered alive? The baby was NOT part of her body, or he would have died with her. Children have been delivered and born months after their mother was declared brain dead.
And when a baby is ready to come……..the womans body goes into labor not because she is ready……but because the baby is ready to leave her body. The unborns brain sends a message to his OWN pituitary gland which in turn stimulates the adrenal cortex to secrete a hormone which stimulates the mothers uterus to contract.

Ones body doesn’t belong to anothers body merely because of proximity.

Remember Louise Brown? Was she a part of her mother? No she was the first test tube baby conceived in a petri dish. She was no more part of her mothers body when placed there than she had been part of the petri dish where her life began. A child is Not part of the body in which it is carried.

Now our weird laws back this up. In July 2000 the U.S House of Representatives affirmed and unamimously passed a bill making it ILLEGAL to execute a pregnant woman. The logical reason for this decision is that a preborn child is an individual person, distinct from his mother and with his own separate right to life.

This shows however that our laws are morally inconsistent.


“Yet you cannot tolerate the laws of your own God and government and wish to force your morality upon those who may not even choose to excersize their right. Explain how that isn’t hypocrisy in every sense of the word”

As I said I am doing NOTHING ILLEGAL. I work within the laws of the land. I obey the laws, however if I had someone come into my place of business and they offended me in a way I did not like I would kick them out. And this did happen one day. A teenage boy drove his car up with a hug plastic baby strapped to the front grill of his car. The baby was made to look like it had been smashed to pieces in a car accident. (blood all over it)
I refused to serve the kid.
And I won't get into the Christian God condoning abortion, because He does not……….that is for another thread………….but if you want scriptures I can site them.

Mixedmedia you said, “What if abortion were banned upon adopting a more sensible and comprehensive program of birth control? Would you simply switch gears and turn your efforts then to the abolishment of birth control? Or do you reserve some room for compromise on these issues?”

I work in all areas of pro-life, not just abortion. We concentrate on abortion because there is so much going on in the states regarding this. Why do you think the pro-choice people in power (PP) are all up in arms about Roe?

We mainly work at places where we have the opportunity to educate people with facts and the newest medical news regarding abortion.

We work in many areas, doctor assisted suicide-human euthanasia, cloning, embryonic stem cell…………etc…

Saboteur says, “A fetus is a viable life when it is fully developed and has been born as a child. After that time it is wrong to kill a child which is not a fetus.”
You make no sense whatsoever……………….none. Are you saying a baby isn’t worth saving, isn’t viable in the womb at 8-9 month? That until it is born, it's not a child? Does it have to be born and look like a 12 pound Chatty Cathy doll before its called a child?

My neice was born at 21 ½ weeks, she is now 13 years old. She wasn’t a child when she was born? How ridiculous. Listen to yourself.

“Rape is bad because the rapist imposes their actions and lack of respect for another individual on one who did not choose to have their body controlled by another.:

And that is why I think abortion is bad. You are IMPOSING YOUR LACK OF DIGNITY, YOUR LACK OF THE VALUE FOR LIFE, UPON THE UNBORN CHILD. YOU ARE THE ONE IMPOSING. Your position doesn’t respect, doesn’t value the life of the unborn.

I’m sick you say?……….I might be sick but I am educated on this issue, which clearly you are NOT.

 

[McWilliamson]

I voted Pro-Choice and Pro-Death Penalty.

I meant to vote Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty.

Whoops.

To clarify my stance: Death penalty is necessary because (and only because) the world isn't perfect enough to cure criminal insanity (as we are now.)

As for my take on abortion: Killing is wrong, which is why I am Pro-Life. The woman has no right to kill the child within her womb. I guess my motto is, "You make him/her, you raise him/her or give him/her to someone who will raise him/her." Also, the man has no right to abort/kill the child either.

The reason I was confused when I voted was because I am pro-circumstance. Some of the time, it is necessary to dispatch a person before he is given the chance to suffer for his whole torture of a life. These people are the completely crippled/paralyzed (AT BIRTH). Those who have no way of communication AND no control over their bodily functions do not want to live. I repeat: AT BIRTH. I am not talking about Christopher Reeves, who became a famous actor, made millions, and millions of relationships, and THEN was paralyzed. Plus, he could speak and communicate.

There are hardships that must be dealt with outside of abortion. Blind kids should not be aborted, nor should deaf and dumb kids. There is a difference between a difficult life and a life of zero communication/postive sensation, which, in my eyes, is no life at all.

 

[mixedmedia]

Mixedmedia you said, “What if abortion were banned upon adopting a more sensible and comprehensive program of birth control? Would you simply switch gears and turn your efforts then to the abolishment of birth control? Or do you reserve some room for compromise on these issues?”

I work in all areas of pro-life, not just abortion. We concentrate on abortion because there is so much going on in the states regarding this. Why do you think the pro-choice people in power (PP) are all up in arms about Roe?

We mainly work at places where we have the opportunity to educate people with facts and the newest medical news regarding abortion.

We work in many areas, doctor assisted suicide-human euthanasia, cloning, embryonic stem cell…………etc…

Thanks for your answer but it really doesn't address my question. If Roe v. Wade is reversed, will you and your colleagues work towards the abolishment of the methods of birth control you find unethical?

 

[hiker]

Pro-life, pro-death penalty. You only have one life. You have the right to live that life. But when you end someone else's life, whoops...there goes your right to live. You had your chance and you blew it. No sympathy from me. I only have sympathy for the friends and family of your victims. The only situation I excuse is in killing in defense; of yourself, another person, or country. Those that kill through negligence or intent, your life is for others to decide. If a jury finds you guilty, the ultimate price is never too high.

That goes for those that perform abortions, as well. Just because you get away with murder, that doesn't make it any more acceptable. Save the innocent, judge the guilty. To those that want it the other way around, don't expect me to ever go along with you on that.

Maybe one day, in a perfect world, we can all live together in peace and love one another. But you don't get close to that if people don't live by the rules of society. I find it so sad that it should be so, but there it is.

 

[Navy Pride]

Pro-life, pro-death penalty. You only have one life. You have the right to live that life. But when you end someone else's life, whoops...there goes your right to live. You had your chance and you blew it. No sympathy from me. I only have sympathy for the friends and family of your victims. The only situation I excuse is in killing in defense; of yourself, another person, or country. Those that kill through negligence or intent, your life is for others to decide. If a jury finds you guilty, the ultimate price is never too high.

That goes for those that perform abortions, as well. Just because you get away with murder, that doesn't make it any more acceptable. Save the innocent, judge the guilty. To those that want it the other way around, don't expect me to ever go along with you on that.

Maybe one day, in a perfect world, we can all live together in peace and love one another. But you don't get close to that if people don't live by the rules of society. I find it so sad that it should be so, but there it is.

Excellent post...It boggles my mind that our left wing friends have all the compassion in the world for people that commit horrific crimes but have no compassion for the families of the victums who suffered the tragic loss.......

I guess it makes them feel good and helps them to sleep better at night.........