Where do you stand on abortion/deathpenalty?

[Saboteur]

Sorry but your wrong.......As I said already a person that is sentenced to death committed a horrendous capital crime.......

What Crime has a baby in the womb committed? Huge difference and nothing hypocritical about it.........

Sometimes the person sentenced to death didn't commit the horrendous capital crime but is executed anyway.

Isn't being forced to live in a room that's 9x7' for the rest of your life a form of death? I think so, I've been to jail... granted only for 3 days, but man that was a looooooooooooooong 3 days! I couldn't imagine being locked up for the rest of my life, I'd go nuts.

Sometimes a fetus is the product of a horrendous crime. Should a woman be forced to have the child when it was forced upon her? Is it her fault that her rapist didn't wear a condom?

That said if our society is to allow it for one circumstance, it needs to be available in all. I don't like the idea of abortion being used as a birth control method but legal or not it will happen. And when you think about it being Pro-Choice is also being Pro-Life in that having a doctor available to perform the operation is the difference that could save the mother's life.

 

[Plain old me]

And a lot of people believe that if a scum bag kills and mutilates somone that the perpertrator should pay the ultimate penalty......

That's true

As far as whether its a life or not that is yours and the liberal viewpoint so you can sleep better at night........What if you are wrong? Have you ever considered that? Never mind I already know the answer.....:roll:

It's nice that you've just handed me a viewpoint there...but I shall explain mine anyways, just to clarify. I am actually pro-choice, and anti-death penalty. Have i considered if I'm wrong? of course I have, it's a part of my decision making process...when there's an issue, I generally consider both sides of the argument, rather then immediately dismissing an argument as 'liberal'. I think up until the point a fetus is viable then abortion should be a possibility. My big issue for abortion is when that time is...which is why I believe the abortion limit should be pretty low.

As for the death penalty, firmly against. Our justice systems are hardly perfect, and mistakes will be made, so it seems illogical to create a completely irreversible sentence, which the death penalty most certianly is.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I didn't vote, because my view on abortion is complicated. I believe abortion is ethically wrong. Birth control should be free and easy to obtain for all women and teen girls. I'm still on the fence with the "morning after pill" but it could possibly be very effective in reducing the abortion rate assuming it is free and easy to obtain. Perhaps then we could see the demand for abortions reduced to a manageable level, and then eventually stop the practice altogether.
But until such a time I see abortion as wrong but, with no practical alternatives, necessary.

I am anti-death penalty.

How can you be on the fence about " the morning after pill" If conception has taken place is this not the same as an abortion? Personally I have no problem with either. I just was curious about the distinction between the two?

 

[Saboteur]

How can you be on the fence about " the morning after pill" If conception has taken place is this not the same as an abortion? Personally I have no problem with either. I just was curious about the distinction between the two?

The main thing about the morning after pill is that the woman taking it may not know if she has conceved. It being "the morning after" it is way to soon to know if one is pregnant. I am not fully versed on the use of this drug and I do not know what time frame in which a woman has to take it to end pregnancy. But I do know that if a woman has had unprotected sex and feels that there is a chance that one of her partner's sperm could have introduced itself to one of her eggs the night before she should have the option of taking a drug that will cause her body to reject a fertalized egg from attaching to her uteris so that it may develope.

Now if we are going to call this an abortion, we need to clarify what a fertalized egg is.

Is a fertalized egg a human being? or is it an altered single cell organizm?

In my opinion... if we are to say that a fertalized egg is a human being then an unfertalized egg is also a human being as well as sperm are human beings.

Having said that... then people are having abortions every day because a lot of men masturbate a lot therefore they are aborting their unborn children by not using their sperm to fertalize a woman's egg. Furthermore even if a man does not masturbate his sperm will die anyway as they are not like bullets ready to go from the time his body made them. Also, if a woman does not have sex for several months then she is also aborting her unborn children while she goes about her business ovulating and having a menstrale cycle. The same is true when protection is used.

This is where I do not agree with the Pro-Life philosophy. If we are to assume that our reproductive cells are humans. Then people shouldn't have sex at all. Men should masterbate everyday into a cup and have their unborn children frozen until each and every sperm can fertalize a harvested egg that we get from women who are kept prisoner so we can catch every egg released during ovulation so that no one gets murdered. Sounds rediculous doesn't it?

What I am trying to get at here though is nature. It is our nature to have free will. It is our nature to do good things and bad things no matter what anybody says. And it is our body's nature to produce reproductive cells and discard them if there is no use for them. Abortion has been around, probably as long as humans have. And whether it is legal or illegal, a surgical procedure or drug induced menstration, it will happen.

 

[doughgirl]

Saboteur said, "Abortion will happen even if it is illegal and I think women deserve to have it done in a clean, safe environment by a medical professional."


So lets legalize rape. That will happen as well, so we might as well do it.
Any civilized society restricts the individuals freedom to choose whenever that choice would harm an innocent person.
Your saying gee we know abortion will happen, it is killing but lets just do the killing in a nice Planned Parenthood facility or nice state of the art abortion clinic.

TO BE PROCHOICE ABOUT SOMEONES RIGHT TO KILL IS TO BE ANTICHOICE ABOUT SOMEONES RIGHT TO LIVE.


I am not surprised by this poll. Most people do not know much about abortion and are highly ill-infomed and educated about it. It is sad howver that people place the choice of a woman over the death of her unborn child. Its the pro-abortion movements goal to keep the truth from reaching people. Its the only way they can win. They have used lies from the beginning and they continue to promote abortion with lies.

Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do NOTHING."
And look at the result of the poll.

For those who call themselves pro-choice, abortion is just a means to have sex without consequences, but for those who call themselves pro-life, abortion is child-dismemberment.

And we have posters here who defend child dismemberment in clean tidy places, jsut because it will go on anyway.


"Putting a person in prison for life IMO is worse than a death sentence."

How do you know? Ever been in a prison? They have the internet, television, gyms.....and we pay for them.


I do believe that the more people find out about abortion and the TRUTH surrounding it, the more pro-life they become.
Abortion shouldnt be tolerated.
As James Kennedy once said, " The last virtue of a decadent society is tolerance. When the tolerable is tolerated, no one is safe. And if we continue to teach about tolerance and intolerance instead of teaching about good and evil, we will end up with tolerance of evil."



Saboteur let me ask you this question.......... Do you think people have the right to choose to kill innocent children if thats what they want to do?

Let me remind you, nearly ALL violations of human rights have been defended on the grounds of the RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

Slaveowners were pro-choice. They said gee I dont believe in owning slaves but if you want to its ok. Those who wanted to make it illegal were accused of being antichoice and antifreedom and of imposing their morality on others. Just liek the prochoice call we who are pro-life

The prochoice side always overlooks the victims right to choose. The woman dont choose rape... The blacks didn't choose slavery, the Jews didnt choose the ovens..............AND BABIES DONT CHOOSE ABORTION.

 

[mixedmedia]

How can you be on the fence about " the morning after pill" If conception has taken place is this not the same as an abortion? Personally I have no problem with either. I just was curious about the distinction between the two?

Because I am not certain taking a pill to destroy a fertilized egg (most likely less than 24 hours old) is the same thing as the abortion of a fetus at 12 weeks. Of course, in essence they are the same - but it is not a black and white dilemma.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The main thing about the morning after pill is that the woman taking it may not know if she has conceved. It being "the morning after" it is way to soon to know if one is pregnant. I am not fully versed on the use of this drug and I do not know what time frame in which a woman has to take it to end pregnancy. But I do know that if a woman has had unprotected sex and feels that there is a chance that one of her partner's sperm could have introduced itself to one of her eggs the night before she should have the option of taking a drug that will cause her body to reject a fertalized egg from attaching to her uteris so that it may develope.

Now if we are going to call this an abortion, we need to clarify what a fertalized egg is.

Is a fertalized egg a human being? or is it an altered single cell organizm?

In my opinion... if we are to say that a fertalized egg is a human being then an unfertalized egg is also a human being as well as sperm are human beings.

Having said that... then people are having abortions every day because a lot of men masturbate a lot therefore they are aborting their unborn children by not using their sperm to fertalize a woman's egg. Furthermore even if a man does not masturbate his sperm will die anyway as they are not like bullets ready to go from the time his body made them. Also, if a woman does not have sex for several months then she is also aborting her unborn children while she goes about her business ovulating and having a menstrale cycle. The same is true when protection is used.

This is where I do not agree with the Pro-Life philosophy. If we are to assume that our reproductive cells are humans. Then people shouldn't have sex at all. Men should masterbate everyday into a cup and have their unborn children frozen until each and every sperm can fertalize a harvested egg that we get from women who are kept prisoner so we can catch every egg released during ovulation so that no one gets murdered. Sounds rediculous doesn't it?

What I am trying to get at here though is nature. It is our nature to have free will. It is our nature to do good things and bad things no matter what anybody says. And it is our body's nature to produce reproductive cells and discard them if there is no use for them. Abortion has been around, probably as long as humans have. And whether it is legal or illegal, a surgical procedure or drug induced menstration, it will happen.

I don't really agree with your definition of life in that post. But that being said. Are you opposed to abortion in the first 4 months. I'm not being a smartass I just don't get the distinction. To me an unfertalized egg can't be considered anything. Until the child is capable of functioning outside the womb I don't think I would consider it a human being. But it seems that being pro life that you would. Exactly when, in your eyes does life commence?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Because I am not certain taking a pill to destroy a fertilized egg (most likely less than 24 hours old) is the same thing as the abortion of a fetus at 12 weeks. Of course, in essence they are the same - but it is not a black and white dilemma.

So when do you consider life to start if not at conception?

 

[Saboteur]

Saboteur said, "Abortion will happen even if it is illegal and I think women deserve to have it done in a clean, safe environment by a medical professional."

You don't think that women who will proceed with something they will do anyway should do it in a way that is safe?

So lets legalize rape. That will happen as well, so we might as well do it.
Any civilized society restricts the individuals freedom to choose whenever that choice would harm an innocent person.

That's not what I am talking about. But if we must how about justifiable homicide? You know that in Louisiana it is legal to kill someone who is trying to steal your car?

Anyway ther are consiquences to raping a person, there are cosiquenses to killing someone and there are consiquences to abortion. Do you think that people who have had one never think about it again? Do yo think that there is no guilt? Then you may need to open your eyes to the world.

Your saying gee we know abortion will happen, it is killing but lets just do the killing in a nice Planned Parenthood facility or nice state of the art abortion clinic.

Okay let's do the killing in a dirty old cadillac in the back of some bar where not only the fetus will die but so will the woman having it done.

Are you saying that a woman should be killed for not wanting a chiled?

TO BE PROCHOICE ABOUT SOMEONES RIGHT TO KILL IS TO BE ANTICHOICE ABOUT SOMEONES RIGHT TO LIVE.

HYpocracy!

To support war is the same thing, to eat meat is the same thing, to look the other way when a homeless person needs some food or shelter IT IS THE SAME THING.

I am not surprised by this poll. Most people do not know much about abortion and are highly ill-infomed and educated about it. It is sad howver that people place the choice of a woman over the death of her unborn child. Its the pro-abortion movements goal to keep the truth from reaching people. Its the only way they can win. They have used lies from the beginning and they continue to promote abortion with lies.

How educated are you? Me I've had 2 girlfriends have abortions. I was part of the decision making process but ultimately I could only give input. I could not force them to do one or the other no matter what I said. I could really only listen and give my opinion.

Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do NOTHING."
And look at the result of the poll.

Evil and Good are symbiotic. One does not exist without the other.

For those who call themselves pro-choice, abortion is just a means to have sex without consequences, but for those who call themselves pro-life, abortion is child-dismemberment.

To be truly Pro-Life is to be sexually repressed and in denial that humans are humans meant to live their life as their creator sees fit. Furthermore it is a lack of faith in that creator and a fear of death!

And we have posters here who defend child dismemberment in clean tidy places, jsut because it will go on anyway.

I suppose you would like to kill people who believe that?

"Putting a person in prison for life IMO is worse than a death sentence."

How do you know? Ever been in a prison? They have the internet, television, gyms.....and we pay for them.

Yes I have been to jail for a few days. It sucks no matter what the amenities are. You are told when to get up, when to go to sleep, when to bathe when to eat and there's no choice in what it will be.

You do not go outside when you want, you do not leave your cell when you want, you do not tell a gaurd to leave you alone when he/she is verbaly or physically abusing you. And at any time you can have your priviledges taken away without a reason.

I do believe that the more people find out about abortion and the TRUTH surrounding it, the more pro-life they become.
Abortion shouldnt be tolerated.
As James Kennedy once said, " The last virtue of a decadent society is tolerance. When the tolerable is tolerated, no one is safe. And if we continue to teach about tolerance and intolerance instead of teaching about good and evil, we will end up with tolerance of evil."

When my wife had an egtopic pregnancy that almost killed her and resulted in her having to have a radical hysterectomy should I have just let her die?

If our child were going to be deformed or mentally retarted should we have cursed it to living in the tourture of not being healthy and normal?

If my wife was raped should she not be able to take a pill that wouldn't allow the a fertalized egg if there was one take the from of her rapist?

I think you're beliefs are flawe and immature. You do not understand what human nature is nor do you or James Kennedy know what tolerance is... TOLERANCE IS FREEDOM!

Saboteur let me ask you this question.......... Do you think people have the right to choose to kill innocent children if thats what they want to do?

You've obviously read what I posted.

Let me remind you, nearly ALL violations of human rights have been defended on the grounds of the RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

What?

Slaveowners were pro-choice. They said gee I dont believe in owning slaves but if you want to its ok. Those who wanted to make it illegal were accused of being antichoice and antifreedom and of imposing their morality on others. Just liek the prochoice call we who are pro-life

They still do. how come our country isn't waging a war on slavery. You are aware that Human Traffic is the new globaly organized crime business do you not? You can sell a gram of cocain once but you can sell a woman over and over and over again.

The prochoice side always overlooks the victims right to choose. The woman dont choose rape... The blacks didn't choose slavery, the Jews didnt choose the ovens..............AND BABIES DONT CHOOSE ABORTION.

Unfortunatly the 'victims' we are talking about don't even know they are alive. They are not aware of themselves, are you saying that harvesting vegitables is genocide?

Wake up!

 

[Saboteur]

I don't really agree with your definition of life in that post. But that being said. Are you opposed to abortion in the first 4 months. I'm not being a smartass I just don't get the distinction. To me an unfertalized egg can't be considered anything. Until the child is capable of functioning outside the womb I don't think I would consider it a human being. But it seems that being pro life that you would. Exactly when, in your eyes does life commence?

Well that was just my passive-aggressive way at smaking the Pro-Life philosophy down. IMO that extreme is the only way one can truely be Pro-Life.

As for being opposed to abortion in the first 4 months. No I am not opposed to abortion in any way at all. Granted there are some situations which make me uncomfortable like abortion after the first 11 weeks but that is something I can't choose to do, I am a man. However, if it were my wife or girlfreind I would express myself, but in no way would I try to use it as a way to convince her to have the child. I ultimately is not my decision. But because I believe in people being free to decide what to do with there bodies I have to be Pro-Choice.

I am sorry that I was not clear in my post to you. I was trying to say that it is not human nature to submit to the sexual slavery the Pro-Life agenda unknowingly would like to impose.

And to clarify, I do not think my sperm is a human being.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Well that was just my passive-aggressive way at smaking the Pro-Life philosophy down. IMO that extreme is the only way one can truely be Pro-Life.

As for being opposed to abortion in the first 4 months. No I am not opposed to abortion in any way at all. Granted there are some situations which make me uncomfortable like abortion after the first 11 weeks but that is something I can't choose to do, I am a man. However, if it were my wife or girlfreind I would express myself, but in no way would I try to use it as a way to convince her to have the child. I ultimately is not my decision. But because I believe in people being free to decide what to do with there bodies I have to be Pro-Choice.

I am sorry that I was not clear in my post to you. I was trying to say that it is not human nature to submit to the sexual slavery the Pro-Life agenda unknowingly would like to impose.

And to clarify, I do not think my sperm is a human being.

:rofl :rofl

:rofl OK .. gotta ya now... I agree with you also

 

[mixedmedia]

So when do you consider life to start if not at conception?

This is a question I am not equipped to answer. I don't flatter myself that I will ever have the answer to that question. I don't come to my position on abortion from a religious stance. I do believe that mankind should default to the sparing of another's life whenever possible. I also believe that the practice of abortion is backward, intrusive and could be obsolete if we gave women more preventive freedom over their bodies. Birth control should be free and easier to obtain, sans prescription, in my opinion. Any woman who has ever been prescribed birth control will be able to tell you that there is no science or art to it. I believe it should be available on demand at any pharmacy, public clinic or hospital, including the clinics at high schools. I don't have a manifesto prepared and I am sure there are gaping holes in my proposition, but somewhere along these lines lies the solution to the abortion problem in my opinion.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

This is a question I am not equipped to answer. I don't flatter myself that I will ever have the answer to that question. I don't come to my position on abortion from a religious stance. I do believe that mankind should default to the sparing of another's life whenever possible. I also believe that the practice of abortion is backward, intrusive and could be obsolete if we gave women more preventive freedom over their bodies. Birth control should be free and easier to obtain, sans prescription, in my opinion. Any woman who has ever been prescribed birth control will be able to tell you that there is no science or art to it. I believe it should be available on demand at any pharmacy, public clinic or hospital, including the clinics at high schools. I don't have a manifesto prepared and I am sure there are gaping holes in my proposition, but somewhere along these lines lies the solution to the abortion problem in my opinion.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I am not against abortion per say. But if there were other means to avoid that cause no problems with the mother then I would be all for it. Would be a pretty good start

 

[Navy Pride]

I can see how one would feel that way. However there are people who are Pro-Life and Pro-Death penalty... Doesn't that fall under the same hypocricy?

No it doesn't because as I have already said the baby in the womb committed no crime..........That is a huge difference.......Why can't you see it?

 

[Navy Pride]

[QUOTESometimes the person sentenced to death didn't commit the horrendous capital crime but is executed anyway. ][/QUOTE]

That is a whole different thread..I am talking about people that committed the crime and have been convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt..........

If you think that serving life in prison is worse then being executed ask any guy on death row if he would rather serve life in prison or be executed.......I think to a man they would all rather serve life.........When there is life in prison there is always hope that some liberal judge will feel sorry for you down the road and release you............If your executed there is no hope........

There is a guy on death row in California right now, his name escapes me and he and the hollywood people are trying to get his sentence commuted from death to life without parole...............If life without parole is so bad why does this guy want it instead of execution?

 

[doughgirl]

“You don't think that women who will proceed with something they will do anyway should do it in a way that is safe?”

So we allow it just because they wouldn’t get it done in a safe place?

“….there are consequences to killing someone and there are consequences to abortion.”

I am curious to what you think the consequences of abortion are? If you are pro-choice abortion……….then what are the consequences? Surely if you think it is really taking a life……..your not saying take it anyway just make sure you do it in a clean clinic? That would be saying murder is ok lets just do it in clean places. It’s better for the woman, and better for the dismembered fetus. They at least would have a clean bucket to put the pieces in.

“Okay let's do the killing in a dirty old cadillac in the back of some bar where not only the fetus will die but so will the woman having it done”

First of all this is a rare scenario. If you did the research you would see that prior to Roe v Wade, deaths due to abortions were rare.

No one seems to care that abortion in our country has desensitized us to the value of human life. The courts back up this view, they view life cheaply.

In Florida the courts sentence a teenage girl and her boyfriend for throwing their premature baby in a trash dumpster, and give them hefty jail sentences, while across town they say it’s fine and legal to kill a child at that same age at an abortion facility. Does it matter if a person does it or does it have to be a certified medical doctor? The courts say it’s ok to kill……….just have a doctor do it. Had these two teenagers not panicked and gone to Planned Parenthood, they could have killed it no problem.


I get the feeling you think that allowing women to choose abortion has a benefit to society.
Who does it benefit? Certainly not the one being aborted. What benefits do they get?
You tell me how does… ending a life benefit society?

The history of abortion in America should bring more shame to us than anything else. Our government’s sponsorship of abortion is outrageous and inhumane and inconsistent. The fact that they allow woman, the choice to kill, is inconceivable.

I take it you don’t know many facts about abortion, these might help.
“Since 90% of pre-1973 illegal abortions were done by doctors, it’s safe to assume many physicians would continue to give abortions.” (From the book, “Pro-life Answers to Pro-choice Questions,” by Randy Alcorn pg. 173)

“For decades prior to abortion being legalized in the United States around 85% of illegal abortions were done by reputable doctors in their local clinics.” (Alfred Kinsey, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, Ohio: Hayes Publishing Co., 1988), 169


In 1960, Planned Parenthood stated that 90% of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians.” (Mary Calderone, Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem,” American Journal of Health 50 (July 1960): 949)

“Research confirms that the actual number of abortion deaths in the 25 year prior to 1973 averaged 250 a year, with a high of 388 in 1948.”
In 1966 before the state legalized abortion, 120 mothers died from abortion.
By 1972, abortion was still illegal in 80% of the country but the use of antibiotics had greatly reduced the risk. The number dropped to 39 maternal deaths from abortion that year.” (U.S Bureau of Vital Statistics)


You asked me how educated I am. I’ll tell you. I have a graduate degree in Art…taught for over 20 years in our failed public school system…..I have worked for The Right To Life organization in my state…..I have counseled and talked to hundreds of woman all over the country about abortion, both in a witnessing capacity and educational one.
I have had an abortion myself and can attest to what a horror it is to live with. I also am a member of CWA. (Concerned Woman for America) and work very hard trying to end this nationwide slaughter of unborn children.

How educated are you besides getting two woman pregnant and offering them support to get an abortion?

You say, “Evil and Good are symbiotic. One does not exist without the other.
And what does this have to do with anything? Is rape good or bad? Might be good to some but bad to others (the woman)…………so lets just make rape acceptable and legal?

Another humanist bullcrap line. No absolutes…………no right or wrong.
No moral point of reference to you guys. At least ones that are logically both coherent and prescriptive.

As Dostoevsky said, “If God is dead everything is justifiable.” And abortion is justifiable to those who condone the slaughter………..because abortion isn’t bad if ya got a good enough reason……..and to the humanist……….any reason is good enough.
No conscience………no problem.

 

[Saboteur]

“You don't think that women who will proceed with something they will do anyway should do it in a way that is safe?”

So we allow it just because they wouldn’t get it done in a safe place?

Yep. Unless you want Pro-life to become a "culture of death".

“….there are consequences to killing someone and there are consequences to abortion.”

I am curious to what you think the consequences of abortion are? If you are pro-choice abortion……….then what are the consequences? Surely if you think it is really taking a life……..your not saying take it anyway just make sure you do it in a clean clinic? That would be saying murder is ok lets just do it in clean places. It’s better for the woman, and better for the dismembered fetus. They at least would have a clean bucket to put the pieces in.

No I don't think it is taking a life because in most cases the life isn't developed. It is not murder and I think you are pretty disturbed... you'd rather step in a dismemberd fetus on your way to work than have it be disposed of in a respectful manner.

As for the consiquences.... There isn't one day that I don't wonder who the little clump of cells that my girlfriends and I decided not to allow grow would have turned into AFTER they developed into people. And I didn't even have the abortion. I have no idea what it is like for a woman. But there must be guilt or regret sometimes.

What do you think the consiquences should be for people who have had an abortion?

Since you think abortion is murder and support the death penalty I bet you'd like to see them put to death. I am wondering how that is Pro-Life?


“Okay let's do the killing in a dirty old cadillac in the back of some bar where not only the fetus will die but so will the woman having it done”

First of all this is a rare scenario. If you did the research you would see that prior to Roe v Wade, deaths due to abortions were rare.

Oh okay, but were abortions rare? How many cases ended up where the woman didn't die but if she didn't get treatment would have?

No one seems to care that abortion in our country has desensitized us to the value of human life. The courts back up this view, they view life cheaply.

Not true and the same could be said about supporting and practising the death penalty.

In Florida the courts sentence a teenage girl and her boyfriend for throwing their premature baby in a trash dumpster, and give them hefty jail sentences, while across town they say it’s fine and legal to kill a child at that same age at an abortion facility. Does it matter if a person does it or does it have to be a certified medical doctor? The courts say it’s ok to kill……….just have a doctor do it. Had these two teenagers not panicked and gone to Planned Parenthood, they could have killed it no problem.

I'm sure the main charge was not going to a hospital to get help for the baby and to put it up for adoption. Probably neglect charges. Maybe they thought the child was already dead in being too early and they didn't now what to do.

But I have to ask do you think that people who have miscarriages should be put in jail?


I get the feeling you think that allowing women to choose abortion has a benefit to society.
Who does it benefit? Certainly not the one being aborted. What benefits do they get?
You tell me how does… ending a life benefit society?

I don't think it benefits society anymore than it hurts it. If we are to jail people for it or force people to have children they do not want I think it would be problem for our society. Think of the abandonment, the abuse, an unwanted class of people who go from foster home to foster home.

The history of abortion in America should bring more shame to us than anything else. Our government’s sponsorship of abortion is outrageous and inhumane and inconsistent. The fact that they allow woman, the choice to kill, is inconceivable.

I'll take the nearly successful genocide of the indiginouse peoples our ancestors commited when they found this country.

I take it you don’t know many facts about abortion, these might help.
“Since 90% of pre-1973 illegal abortions were done by doctors, it’s safe to assume many physicians would continue to give abortions.” (From the book, “Pro-life Answers to Pro-choice Questions,” by Randy Alcorn pg. 173)

Exactly that's why my stance on the issue is a passive one.

“For decades prior to abortion being legalized in the United States around 85% of illegal abortions were done by reputable doctors in their local clinics.” (Alfred Kinsey, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, Ohio: Hayes Publishing Co., 1988), 169

Yep it happens anyway.


In 1960, Planned Parenthood stated that 90% of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians.” (Mary Calderone, Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem,” American Journal of Health 50 (July 1960): 949)

“Research confirms that the actual number of abortion deaths in the 25 year prior to 1973 averaged 250 a year, with a high of 388 in 1948.”
In 1966 before the state legalized abortion, 120 mothers died from abortion.
By 1972, abortion was still illegal in 80% of the country but the use of antibiotics had greatly reduced the risk. The number dropped to 39 maternal deaths from abortion that year.” (U.S Bureau of Vital Statistics)

Why hasn't any of this sunk in?


You asked me how educated I am. I’ll tell you. I have a graduate degree in Art…taught for over 20 years in our failed public school system…..I have worked for The Right To Life organization in my state…..I have counseled and talked to hundreds of woman all over the country about abortion, both in a witnessing capacity and educational one.
I have had an abortion myself and can attest to what a horror it is to live with. I also am a member of CWA. (Concerned Woman for America) and work very hard trying to end this nationwide slaughter of unborn children.

I don't care... have you had an abortion?

How educated are you besides getting two woman pregnant and offering them support to get an abortion?


Both cases I wanted the child and they did not was I supposed to have them committed?

You say, “Evil and Good are symbiotic. One does not exist without the other.
And what does this have to do with anything? Is rape good or bad? Might be good to some but bad to others (the woman)…………so lets just make rape acceptable and legal?

Rape is bad and I would appreciate it if you would stop infering that I think otherwise.

Another humanist bullcrap line. No absolutes…………no right or wrong.
No moral point of reference to you guys. At least ones that are logically both coherent and prescriptive.

It's not "bullcrap" and in fact you admit that you do not like humanists who are people who care about the human condition. And that means you do not so that makes you what? Good? Bad? Moral? Righteous? logical? Blind?


As Dostoevsky said, “If God is dead everything is justifiable.” And abortion is justifiable to those who condone the slaughter………..because abortion isn’t bad if ya got a good enough reason……..and to the humanist……….any reason is good enough.
No conscience………no problem.

Do you have anything to say that doesn't contradict your own opinion?

 

[doughgirl]

Saboteur says, "TOLERANCE IS FREEDOM!"


Contrary to popular definitions, true tolerance means "putting up with error"-NOT "being accepting of ALL views." By definition what we tolerate is what we dissaprove of or what we believe to be false and erroneous. If dissagreement did not exist, tolerance would be unnecessary. It is only because differences exist between people that tolerance becomes necessary.
Ah relativism....one of the ironies of relativism is that it exalts tolerance to the status of an absolute. I can interact with a Muslim while still believing on rational grounds that he is mistaken. True tolerance grants people the right and opportunity to dissent, to disagree. It doenst mean I have to sit by and tolerate the behavior however. I can try to change if.

You however think I am intolerant because I think abortion is murder and I am not pro-choice. You are pro-abortion and pro-choice and I think you are wrong. You criticize me for this view. But I ask you this.....Are you being accepting of my position? Are you being tolerant towards me? The relativist simply cant be accepting of all positions as true without falling into contradictions.
I believe God makes tolerance intelligible, because God is the source of truth and because I believe God made human beings in His own likeness. For those who do not believe in God I would ask them this........ If tolerance is a value, FREEDOM as you call it, (it isnt obvious from nature), and if there is no God, and we are just hunks of cells, how could tolerance be an objective value at all? In the absence of truth, power really is the only game in town. And today power is being waged against the innocent unborn child.

Why respect anothers personal FREEDOM if objective truth doesnt exist?

Across our campuses in this country cries are heard against the evils of Western civilization. These radicals who advocate multicultural curriculums really have no grounds for condemning the West if MORALITY is relative. Because how could morally relativistic feminists condemn abortions based on sex selection in countries like India and China, where girls are killed on a daily basis in favor of boys?

You say I am not tolerant. Should we have tolerated Hitler? KuKluxKlan, Pol Pot? Would you classify this tolerance as.......FREEDOM? Good?
Is there any moral difference between Mother Teresa and Hitler?

I'll finish by saying this......posing these questions.

You think it is morally wrong to impose your values on someone else-that this shouldnt be done? (It is wrong for me to judge those who get abortions)
I would ask you then.... Who are you to impose your morality on those who want to impose their morality on others?

Last question.........if your sister were being raped would you stand by and do nothing because you wouldnt want to impose your morality on the rapist?

I would hope you would say no. That is why I will work until the day I die to stop the slaughter of the innocent, the unborn child. Work hard to change unjust laws and to educate people. I cant tolerate this behavior, the viewpoint that says, lets kill the unborn child, they dont have the right to live. I'm gonna do something about it.

 

[mixedmedia]

I would hope you would say no. That is why I will work until the day I die to stop the slaughter of the innocent, the unborn child. Work hard to change unjust laws and to educate people. I cant tolerate this behavior, the viewpoint that says, lets kill the unborn child, they dont have the right to live. I'm gonna do something about it.

What is your opinion on the use of the "morning after pill"?

 

[doughgirl]

Saboteur says, "No I don't think it is taking a life because in most cases the life isn't developed. It is not murder and I think you are pretty disturbed... you'd rather step in a dismemberd fetus on your way to work than have it be disposed of in a respectful manner."

Ha ha.......

1. Is a persons whose heart is beating dead or alive?

2. If a persons heart is beating and you stop it, what happens to that person?

3. What is a person called who takes a life without permission from that person?

AND PLEASE TELL US WHEN THE HEART OF A FETUS STARTS BEATING.

4. Tell us when the life is developed enough not to kill it? Ha ha.....Can't wait to hear this one.


"As for the consiquences.... There isn't one day that I don't wonder who the little clump of cells that my girlfriends and I decided not to allow grow would have turned into AFTER they developed into people."

And when does a fetus turn into a "person" worthy to live in your eyes?

"And I didn't even have the abortion. I have no idea what it is like for a woman. But there must be guilt or regret sometimes."

Why? Why regret? You just said it wasn't a person, it was nothing. Why feel guilt over something that is NOTHING? Why think about your previous girlfriends abortions and what could have been?
HA HA I THINK YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

You asked me, " do you think that people who have miscarriages should be put in jail?"
Woman who have miscarriages, do not set out to kill their unborn child. Woman who get abortions do. My sister had a few miscarriages.......they spontaneously happened on their own and she did nothing on her part to kill the child.

"I'll take the nearly successful genocide of the indiginouse peoples our ancestors commited when they found this country."

That was terrible as well..............So what your saying is that because horrors were done to those people that makes it ok to do it to the unborn child? Your saying two wrongs, make a right.

You said, "I don't care... have you had an abortion?"

I posted not two sentences before this, that indeed I had had an abortion. Who is not getting it?

You also said, "Rape is bad and I would appreciate it if you would stop infering that I think otherwise."
What is so bad about rape? Then compare this to what is so bad about abortion?
Why do you feel rape is bad and abortion is acceptable?



Galenrox...I happened to vote pro-life and anti-death penalty.

 

[doughgirl]

MixedMedia you asked me,"What is your opinion on the use of the "morning after pill"?


What do I think of ECP...Just a combination of standard birth control pills taken in high doses.

It can supress ovulation but its main function is to keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. This method along with Norplant, Depo-Provera and RU-486 either sometimes or often alter the mothers womb in a way that causes it to REJECT the human life God designed it to nourish and sustain.

I believe human life beings at conception, six days before implantation begins. Therefore in my opinion anything that interferes with implantation kills a person created in the image of God.

I am not alone in this opinion.

Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated "We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing." Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?"

Dr. Keith Moore's text on embryology, referring to the single-cell zygote says, "The cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being. He also states, "Each of us stated life as a cell called a zygote."
Dr. Keith Moore, the Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2d ed. (Philadelphia, Penn)


Popular science reference works reflect this same understanding of when human life really begins.
Time and Rand McNally’s Atlas of the Body states, “In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”

The Encyclopedia Britannica even says, “A new individual is created when the elements of a potent sperm merge with those of a fertile ovum, or egg.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris France.
Not reliable? He is the doctor who discovered the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He says” after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion and not a metaphysical contention; it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning at conception.”

If you would like more information I would be happy to provide you with names, sources. Because there are hundreds of more I would be willing to give you.


The methods I make mention here are routinely referred to as contraceptives, but they are not just exclusively contraceptives. That is, they do not always prevent conception. Sometimes or often they result in the death of already conceived human being.


"World" magazine points out, "In reality the pill regimin-designed to block a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus-aborts a pregnancy that has already begun." (World 8 March 1997,9.)

 

[mixedmedia]

MixedMedia you asked me,"What is your opinion on the use of the "morning after pill"?


What do I think of ECP...Just a combination of standard birth control pills taken in high doses.

It can supress ovulation but its main function is to keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. This method along with Norplant, Depo-Provera and RU-486 either sometimes or often alter the mothers womb in a way that causes it to REJECT the human life God designed it to nourish and sustain.

I believe human life beings at conception, six days before implantation begins. Therefore in my opinion anything that interferes with implantation kills a person created in the image of God.

I am not alone in this opinion.

Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated "We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing." Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?"

Dr. Keith Moore's text on embryology, referring to the single-cell zygote says, "The cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being. He also states, "Each of us stated life as a cell called a zygote."
Dr. Keith Moore, the Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2d ed. (Philadelphia, Penn)


Popular science reference works reflect this same understanding of when human life really begins.
Time and Rand McNally’s Atlas of the Body states, “In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”

The Encyclopedia Britannica even says, “A new individual is created when the elements of a potent sperm merge with those of a fertile ovum, or egg.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris France.
Not reliable? He is the doctor who discovered the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He says” after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion and not a metaphysical contention; it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning at conception.”

If you would like more information I would be happy to provide you with names, sources. Because there are hundreds of more I would be willing to give you.


The methods I make mention here are routinely referred to as contraceptives, but they are not just exclusively contraceptives. That is, they do not always prevent conception. Sometimes or often they result in the death of already conceived human being.


"World" magazine points out, "In reality the pill regimin-designed to block a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus-aborts a pregnancy that has already begun." (World 8 March 1997,9.)

So do I understand correctly that you oppose any form of birth control?

 

[The Real McCoy]

I voted pro-choice and anti-dealth penalty.

I agree with mixedmedia on abortion, I also feel it's ethically and morally wrong. I don't, however, feel it is anywhere near on par with murder as many like to claim. I also believe and support laws limiting the amount of time during a pregnancy an abortion can be performed. I feel that an abortion after the first trimester should be illegal except under extreme circumstances e.g. seriously endangering the mother's life.

As far as the death penalty goes, I don't believe it actually is an effective deterrent of crime. While I can't speak for everyone, I would rather be put to death than spend the rest of my life in prison or solitary confinement. We're all going to die anyway and I feel a convicted murderer should have to face the thought of prison for the rest of their natural life until they die.

 

[mixedmedia]

The "right to die" would be a suitable topic for inclusion on this thread.

What is everyone's position on a person's right to choose suicide? For the sake of keeping the question as benign as possible, let's say in the case of terminal illness or severe disability.

 

[The Real McCoy]

The "right to die" would be a suitable topic for inclusion on this thread.

What is everyone's position on a person's right to choose suicide? For the sake of keeping the question as benign as possible, let's say in the case of terminal illness or severe disability.

I support it. I feel it's another area the government does not belong. Doctors who fulfill their patient's request to die have been way to demonized IMO.