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Where do you sit on the political compass exactly?

libertarian_knight said:
Greens are the watermelon party. Green on the outside, red on the inside. Another vieled attempt to insitute central economic planning under the guise of environemental concern.

The US has done a lot to mess up the environement, no doubt about it. You should check out how bad the soviets did, or the chinese are doing now.

Central planning will kill us before global warming does.

(not to mention the effect central planning already had on global warming anyway. Governments centrally planning large, expansive, and often unecessary highway systems resulting from pressure of and for the benefit of the auto industry.)

60-85% of fossil fuels use by the various developed countries is for transportation energy. Let me clue you in, GOVERNMNETS BUILD NEARLY ALL OF THE ROADS, and often outside of individual or capitalist interests (take as a whole, some capitalists does not mean all capitalists).

Central planning coud be the best thing to happen to us... End of poverty, peace, prosperity for all.

China and USSR aren't communist countries. China is a mix between capitalists and Stalinists. USSR was all Stalinist. Stalinists don't follow the views of true marxist communism. i.e. marxists are internationalists, stalinists are nationalists.

But anyhow your wrong about China and USSR being worse. Here's a list of the top ten. Neither China nor any of the former Soviet Bloc countries make the top ten while USA does (suprisingly not #1) Besides China signed Kyoto treaty while USA didn't.

http://www.aneki.com/polluted.html
 
Che said:
Central planning coud be the best thing to happen to us... End of poverty, peace, prosperity for all.

China and USSR aren't communist countries. China is a mix between capitalists and Stalinists. USSR was all Stalinist. Stalinists don't follow the views of true marxist communism. i.e. marxists are internationalists, stalinists are nationalists.

But anyhow your wrong about China and USSR being worse. Here's a list of the top ten. Neither China nor any of the former Soviet Bloc countries make the top ten while USA does (suprisingly not #1) Besides China signed Kyoto treaty while USA didn't.

http://www.aneki.com/polluted.html

wow, so wait, carbon is the only pollutant in the world? WHEW that's a relief, I thought there were all kinds of pollutants, many of which contain no carbon what so ever. BOY was i wrong.

yey, so China signed Kyoto, and what.... oh yeah, they don't have to abide by it, because they are a developing country. that's right. easy to sign something when it doesn't affect your country huh?

Furthermore, I don't believe I listed China nor the USSR as communist countries. I refered to Central Planning, which since the advent of the Code of Hammurabi HAS BE A COMPLETE FAILURE.

Remember, a point I made you completely ignored. THE CENTRAL PLANNING OF THE US FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENTS HAS BEEN A PRIMARY CAUSE OF AMERICAN USE OF FOSSIL FUELS FOR TRANSPORTATION. Meaning the FEDERALLY FUNDED and STATE FUNDED highway systems. Yes YOUR DREAM CENTRAL PLANNING IS THE CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING.

OK, so, you LOVE central planning, but don't like the resuts it produced in the form of excess carbon emmission.
 
libertarian_knight said:
wow, so wait, carbon is the only pollutant in the world? WHEW that's a relief, I thought there were all kinds of pollutants, many of which contain no carbon what so ever. BOY was i wrong.

yey, so China signed Kyoto, and what.... oh yeah, they don't have to abide by it, because they are a developing country. that's right. easy to sign something when it doesn't affect your country huh?

Furthermore, I don't believe I listed China nor the USSR as communist countries. I refered to Central Planning, which since the advent of the Code of Hammurabi HAS BE A COMPLETE FAILURE.

Remember, a point I made you completely ignored. THE CENTRAL PLANNING OF THE US FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENTS HAS BEEN A PRIMARY CAUSE OF AMERICAN USE OF FOSSIL FUELS FOR TRANSPORTATION. Meaning the FEDERALLY FUNDED and STATE FUNDED highway systems. Yes YOUR DREAM CENTRAL PLANNING IS THE CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING.

OK, so, you LOVE central planning, but don't like the resuts it produced in the form of excess carbon emmission.

I just have to say, that as a liberal who isn't too concerned with the environment (I think most of it's a bunch of hot air), those highway systems you so quickly criticize are a large part of the reason we are the most advanced country on the planet. Good infrastrucure is the backbone of a prosperous nation.

Despite the fact that the interstate system was put in place by Eisenhower, a Republican (and as we all know, Republicans aren't too fond of those central planning projects either), you could still say today's highway system is a result of central planning. I say this because one of the main reasons it was created was due to the Cold War (a war fought with a stalinist nation which implemented central planning; an indirect correlation). One in every 5 miles of the interstate system is straight for emergency plane landings.

So, criticize central planning on a more ideological level if you must, but please don't criticize my highways. They've done much more good than bad.
 
Mikkel said:
I just have to say, that as a liberal who isn't too concerned with the environment (I think most of it's a bunch of hot air), those highway systems you so quickly criticize are a large part of the reason we are the most advanced country on the planet. Good infrastrucure is the backbone of a prosperous nation.

Despite the fact that the interstate system was put in place by Eisenhower, a Republican (and as we all know, Republicans aren't too fond of those central planning projects either), you could still say today's highway system is a result of central planning. I say this because one of the main reasons it was created was due to the Cold War (a war fought with a stalinist nation which implemented central planning; an indirect correlation). One in every 5 miles of the interstate system is straight for emergency plane landings.

So, criticize central planning on a more ideological level if you must, but please don't criticize my highways. They've done much more good than bad.

Absolutely I recognize that the highways were central to our development, I also recognize that there are (in my opinion) better ways to ship goods from Seattle to NYC than by truck. At the same time highways systems were being over developed, rail systems were being either neglected or disbanded. You can't deny the tremendous benefit the rail system had on the USA.

Now, don't believe the myth, republicans, Eisenhower included, are ALL ABOUT central planning, they just want to plan different parts of the economy, or the same parts in a different way, than the democrats.

You really can't say for certain if they "did much more good than bad" because potential alternatives were prevented from being significantly available for comparison. Frieght rail is still, even now, a more efficient mover of large loads that semis. Yet, since sooo much of the highway infrastructure costs and upkeep are federally funded, it gives raod transport an edge created from market disequalibrium.

In economics a cost benefit analysis included not only the direct costs and indirect costs, but the associated opportunity costs as well.

Not only that, but also the TYPES of highways build plays a role too. They are pretty "standardized" which creates an economic disinsentive to create other types of vehicles (smaller 1 or 2 person cars with roads designed for that type of use, for example), or more motorbikes.

And the point initially regarding the highways, was in repsonse to Che (as if those are the only pollutants) regarding the US's carbon emmissions and the effect central planning has had on the current level of emmissions.
 
libertarian_knight said:
Absolutely I recognize that the highways were central to our development, I also recognize that there are (in my opinion) better ways to ship goods from Seattle to NYC than by truck. At the same time highways systems were being over developed, rail systems were being either neglected or disbanded. You can't deny the tremendous benefit the rail system had on the USA.

Now, don't believe the myth, republicans, Eisenhower included, are ALL ABOUT central planning, they just want to plan different parts of the economy, or the same parts in a different way, than the democrats.

You really can't say for certain if they "did much more good than bad" because potential alternatives were prevented from being significantly available for comparison. Frieght rail is still, even now, a more efficient mover of large loads that semis. Yet, since sooo much of the highway infrastructure costs and upkeep are federally funded, it gives raod transport an edge created from market disequalibrium.

In economics a cost benefit analysis included not only the direct costs and indirect costs, but the associated opportunity costs as well.

Not only that, but also the TYPES of highways build plays a role too. They are pretty "standardized" which creates an economic disinsentive to create other types of vehicles (smaller 1 or 2 person cars with roads designed for that type of use, for example), or more motorbikes.

And the point initially regarding the highways, was in repsonse to Che (as if those are the only pollutants) regarding the US's carbon emmissions and the effect central planning has had on the current level of emmissions.

You may very well be right about the efficiency of railroads over highways. But I think it's easy to criticize in retrospect. When Eisenhower was building these roads, it wasn't just for business/transportation purposes, but was also planning for what seemed to be an eventual military conflict with the Russians. Not only did he implement the 1 in 5 miles straight rule for the interstates, he chose roads to begin with because he recognized that, in time of war, especially more modern wars which include tactical military airstrikes, it is very easy to disrupt a railroad line, and not so easy to fix it. On the other hand, finding alternative roads to an interstate would slow down the supply line, but not cut it off completely.

I can see your point, and it is well made. Just recognize that it is very easy to criticize decisions made 50 years ago. It may not have been the best decision in the long run, but it seemed like the best decision at the time. I wouldn't fault Eisenhower for that.
 
Mikkel said:
You may very well be right about the efficiency of railroads over highways. But I think it's easy to criticize in retrospect. When Eisenhower was building these roads, it wasn't just for business/transportation purposes, but was also planning for what seemed to be an eventual military conflict with the Russians. Not only did he implement the 1 in 5 miles straight rule for the interstates, he chose roads to begin with because he recognized that, in time of war, especially more modern wars which include tactical military airstrikes, it is very easy to disrupt a railroad line, and not so easy to fix it. On the other hand, finding alternative roads to an interstate would slow down the supply line, but not cut it off completely.

I can see your point, and it is well made. Just recognize that it is very easy to criticize decisions made 50 years ago. It may not have been the best decision in the long run, but it seemed like the best decision at the time. I wouldn't fault Eisenhower for that.


yeah but that's the crux of the problem, most centrally planned economic actions can easily be criticized later. The Government and Military have a particular midset they use consistantly in all their economic calculations, and that is preservation of the state and their power. At the same time, they do not have much or any concern over the single most important economic calculator, price.

Government funds what it funds, by taking from others, and if they don't have the funds, they just figure out how to take more.

Preservation of power in the absence of price almost invariably produces results in which true costs and benefit are never really understood. It would have been perfectly easy to build interstate highways, that served an excellent national security means, and promote other forms of transport, or at least didn't "prevent" them.

Federal funding for highways is not even limited to interstates either. They fund billions and billions of dollars to highways systems that go a few miles, could NEVER land ANY form of plane, and maybe a helicopter, a small one. They funded highways that go right AROUND cities instead of between cities. They fund highways that go from a street in one part of the city, to a street in another part or outside, but not to another highway.

It's these irrational and stupid actions (that were encouraged so people could feed from the trough), that have actually created the depenancy on on auto and foreign oil. Poor central planning on the part of localities and states and the fed, in light of the fed's market intervention. It's also, particularly, the WAY these highways were designed, that has also lead to urban sprawn and longer commuting times.

And, I generally, though not totally, liked Ike, but absolutely I do fault him for being ignorant of near 4000 years of history.

Hammurabi's Code was not JUST the first example of written law, it was the first example of central planning and command economies. It's effects were dissaterous. Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Russian, British, Fench, and German, etc, etc, etc, all have instituted central edicts of economic control, and they have all, in the long run, be if not wholly problematic or disasterous for the people and government, have been the impetus for violent revolution. ALl these before Eisenhower was born, all these before Eisenhower was General, all these before Eisenhow was president. Yes, his ignorance is his fault. It was not like some well kept secret, hidden away from him, it was Human History.
 
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