Where do my rights end and yours begin?

[OscarLevant]

If they are vaccinated, they aren't at risk...are they?

I don't know, are they?

Outbreaks in highly vaxxed populations:

NEJM - Error
Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884314
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

 

[Lursa]

Then vaxxed kids should stay away from the general market place, where there are adults, many, if not most, of whom are not up to date on their vaccines, or don't have many of the new vaccines.

You can't have it both ways.

Why should vaccinated kids stay away from public areas?

 

[Lursa]

hep B.

Ah, thank you. I looked that up, seems like the risk/benefit makes sense.

 

[OscarLevant]

So the compromise is if you don’t vaccinate your kids they can’t attend public school or private schools with similar rules. It isn’t ideal but it is the least bad option I think.

If unvaccinated kids cannot attend schools, will you support disallowing vaccinated kids from entering theatres, markets, crowded streets, anywhere where there are lots of adults? ( most adults are not up to date on vaccine boosters, many have not received new vaccines kids received that didn't exist when they were children ).

CDC: Adult vaccination rates are drastically low | Fox News

 

[Lursa]

If unvaccinated kids cannot attend schools, will you support disallowing vaccinated kids from entering theatres, markets, crowded streets, anywhere where there are lots of adults? ( most adults are not up to date on vaccine boosters, many have not received new vaccines kids received that didn't exist when they were children ).

CDC: Adult vaccination rates are drastically low | Fox News

I dont understand why you dont want vaccinated kids out in public areas. Can you explain?

 

[Lursa]

If they are vaccinated, they aren't at risk...are they?

Vaccines do not protect 100%, it's more like 70% for some of the more common ones.

And if someone gets the vaccine when they have already been exposed, or have a fever, etc, then the vaccine is useless or less effective (if they have a fever, for instance)

 

[OscarLevant]

Which we get to the right to be only so long as we are not flagrantly irresponsible....not vaccinating your child is flagrantly irresponsible, we are idiots for allowing this flagrantly irresponsibility.

History is replete with authoritative disasters, history is replete with outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations.

Kids today are sicker than ever, so if vaccines are doing anything, one thing they are not doing is making kids healthier.

Under the National Child Vaccine Injury Act, thus far about $3.5 billion has been awarded.

But it begs the question: Why the act? There is no National Child Aspirin Injury Act, no National Child Cough Syrup Injury Act, etc.

As long as these things hold true, and they do, a parent's choice to not vaccinate a child is a choice that parent should have the right to make, for to mandate vaccination, injecting foreign DNA, chemicals, into the muscle tissue of you are your child against one's will is tyranny.

 

[OscarLevant]

Especially in the US.

Your signature:

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi

Here's another quote from Gandhi: "Vaccines are filth".

 

[OscarLevant]

Why should vaccinated kids stay away from public areas?

You are saying non vaxxed kids can't go to public schools, but the flip side is vaxxed kids going to public places where most adults are not up to date on their vaccinations, haven't recieved the new vaccines that weren't available when they were kids.

Therefore,

If you argument is "exposure" in schools, how can you not make it about the general marketplace? It's selective enforcement.

 

[Lursa]

You are saying non vaxxed kids can't go to public schools, but the flip side is vaxxed kids going to public places where most adults are not up to date on their vaccinations, haven't recieved the new vaccines that weren't available when they were kids.

Therefore,

If you argument is "exposure" in schools, how can you not make it about the general marketplace? It's selective enforcement.

How are vaccinated kids a danger to the general public?

 

[OscarLevant]

I dont understand why you dont want vaccinated kids out in public areas. Can you explain?

I'm not saying that, personally. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency:

There is the argument that non vaxxed kids should not be in public schools because they are "exposing" vaxxed kids.

if "exposure" is the reasoning, then it should also be in reverse for vaxxed kids going to the general public market place, where adults are mostly not up to date on their vaccinations, didn't receive the vaxxes that kids get today, etc.

 

[Lursa]

I'm not saying that, personally. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency:

There is the argument that non vaxxed kids should not be in public schools because they are "exposing" vaxxed kids.

if "exposure" is the reasoning, then it should also be in reverse for vaxxed kids going to the general public market place, where adults are mostly not up to date on their vaccinations, didn't receive the vaxxes that kids get today, etc.

Unvaccinated kids arent 'exposing' vaccinated kids to anything (within the efficacy of the vaccine...again, none are 100%). Unvaccinated kids expose kids that cannot be vaccinated because of medical/allergic reasons, and infants/elderly, those with compromised immune systems (like in chemo).

Vaccinated kids arent carrying the microbes, so they shouldnt be exposing anyone to anything. I have no idea where you're going with that.

 

[OscarLevant]

How are vaccinated kids a danger to the general public?

No, that's not it, adults in abundance in the public arena are a danger to the kids.

I'm not making the above argument, I'm just pointing out an inconsistency, It's the reverse argument.

I'm just saying, if the logic is that a non vaxxed kid cannot be in a school, because they are a threat.

Then why are vaxxed kids allowed in public places where there are many non vaxxed adults ( not up to day, not received new vaxxes ) who are a threat to them?


I'm not saying anyone is a threat to anyone, I'm just saying, if you believe this threat business, then the above.

 

[Lursa]

No, that's not it, adults in abundance in the public arena are a danger to the kids.

I'm not making the above argument, I'm just pointing out an inconsistency, It's the reverse argument.

I'm just saying, if the logic is that a non vaxxed kid cannot be in a school, because they are a threat.

Then why are vaxxed kids allowed in public places where there are many non vaxxed adults ( not up to day, not received new vaxxes ) who are a threat to them?


I'm not saying anyone is a threat to anyone, I'm just saying, if you believe this threat business, then the above.

I see no inconsistency, nor anything that makes sense.

Unvaccinated kids are a danger to others and are in danger from others...in school and in public.

Vaccinated kids are not a danger to others, they are not spreading anything.

Vaccinated kids are not in any danger from adults with weakening vaccine efficacy.

Adults with weakening vaccine efficacy are not in danger from vaccinated kids.



Caveat: comments above imply 'within the predicted efficacy of the vaccine.'

 

[OscarLevant]

Unvaccinated kids arent 'exposing' vaccinated kids to anything (within the efficacy of the vaccine...again, none are 100%). Unvaccinated kids expose kids that cannot be vaccinated because of medical/allergic reasons, and infants/elderly, those with compromised immune systems (like in chemo).

Vaccinated kids arent carrying the microbes, so they shouldnt be exposing anyone to anything. I have no idea where you're going with that.

Okay, I'll accept that, but with a qualification:

The only kids that "expose" anyone to anything are those with communicable diseases, and that may, or may not be, the vaccinated.

1 highly vaccinated child in 45 develops autism in America today;
1 in 6 has learning disabilities;
1 in 9 has asthma;
1 in 10 has ADHD;
1 in 12 suffers with depression;
1 in 400 become diabetic
and millions more struggle with other kinds of immune and brain disorders marked by chronic inflammation in the brain and body.


Whatever vaccines are doing to kids today, one thing they are not doing is making kids healthier.

Outbreaks in vaccinated populations

NEJM - Error
Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884314
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

$3.5 billion awarded to the injured in the Vaccine court ( National Child Vaccine Injury Act)


(Why the act? )


Not saying don't vaccinate, but be aware that there is a risk.

A friend of mine's daughter went into anaphylactic shock following a vaccination, and a week later, she having seizures
and continues to have them.

 

[OscarLevant]

I see no inconsistency, nor anything that makes sense.

Unvaccinated kids are a danger to others and are in danger from others...in school and in public.

Vaccinated kids are not a danger to others, they are not spreading anything.

Vaccinated kids are not in any danger from adults with weakening vaccine efficacy.

Adults with weakening vaccine efficacy are not in danger from vaccinated kids.



Caveat: comments above imply 'within the predicted efficacy of the vaccine.'

The only kids that are a danger to others are those with a communicable disease, and history proves, incontrovertibly, that infectious diseases can occur in both non vaccinated kids, and vaccinated kids in abundance.

Outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations:

Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
[Major measles epidemic in the region of Quebec despite a 99% vaccine coverage]. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

 

[Helix]

You need to study the "Carl Sagan Baloney Detection Kit" To wit:


"Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts"



If that is true, then you do not have the right to take your kids to theatres, markets, or wherever their are adults, given that many, if not most, are not up to date on there vaccinations, or have not recieved many of hte new vaccines that did not exist when they were children.


Vaccine hysteria

The only persons putting you are your children at "risk" are those with communicable diseases, and that may, or may not be, the vaccinated.

Outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations

NEJM Mumps
Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884314
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

You need to study herd immunity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

 

[Skeptic Bob]

If unvaccinated kids cannot attend schools, will you support disallowing vaccinated kids from entering theatres, markets, crowded streets, anywhere where there are lots of adults? ( most adults are not up to date on vaccine boosters, many have not received new vaccines kids received that didn't exist when they were children ).

CDC: Adult vaccination rates are drastically low | Fox News

No, I don’t support that. It is too big of a step for my comfort.

 

[Lursa]

Okay, I'll accept that, but with a qualification:

The only kids that "expose" anyone to anything are those with communicable diseases, and that may, or may not be, the vaccinated.

1 highly vaccinated child in 45 develops autism in America today;
1 in 6 has learning disabilities;
1 in 9 has asthma;
1 in 10 has ADHD;
1 in 12 suffers with depression;
1 in 400 become diabetic
and millions more struggle with other kinds of immune and brain disorders marked by chronic inflammation in the brain and body.


Whatever vaccines are doing to kids today, one thing they are not doing is making kids healthier.

Outbreaks in vaccinated populations

NEJM - Error
Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884314
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

$3.5 billion awarded to the injured in the Vaccine court ( National Child Vaccine Injury Act)


(Why the act? )


Not saying don't vaccinate, but be aware that there is a risk.

A friend of mine's daughter went into anaphylactic shock following a vaccination, and a week later, she having seizures
and continues to have them.

Yes, everyone knows there is a small risk. Everyone also knows that the autism link has been debunked.

 

[Lursa]

The only kids that are a danger to others are those with a communicable disease, and history proves, incontrovertibly, that infectious diseases can occur in both non vaccinated kids, and vaccinated kids in abundance.

Outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations:

Mumps Epidemic --- Iowa, 2006
Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. - PubMed - NCBI
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S559.full.pdf+html
[Major measles epidemic in the region of Quebec despite a 99% vaccine coverage]. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3618578
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000476.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1956577/
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15918913
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049244.htm
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19593254

Please look up 'efficacy.' Maybe I shouldnt have used that word.

No vaccine is 100% effective and if someone has already been exposed to a disease during its incubation period when they get the vaccine, it's less likely to work. That's also the case if someone has a fever or cold or other sickness coming on compromising their immune system when they get the shot.

 

[jaeger19]

I dont think anyone said that vaccines should be forced on kids. Just that if they arent, without legitimate documented reason, they shouldnt attend public schools.

And schools do deny them attendance and are within their rights.

Please explain why they shouldn;t be allowed in school if they don't have legitimate documented reasons.

While unvaccinated kids with "legitimate documented reasons".. should be allowed in school.


Its obviously not about "protecting the herd".. because BOTH of those children are unvaccinated and therefore constitute equal risk to other children.

So I am curious why you think the government is better able to make healthcare decisions than you and your doctor are?

Do you think that in other cases then the government should be involved in your medical decisions.. say for example reproduction?

 

[vegas giants]

Please explain why they shouldn;t be allowed in school if they don't have legitimate documented reasons.

While unvaccinated kids with "legitimate documented reasons".. should be allowed in school.


Its obviously not about "protecting the herd".. because BOTH of those children are unvaccinated and therefore constitute equal risk to other children.

So I am curious why you think the government is better able to make healthcare decisions than you and your doctor are?

Do you think that in other cases then the government should be involved in your medical decisions.. say for example reproduction?

The government can be involved in your medical decisions if you put others at risk. Should you be allowed to go to school with an active case of TB?

 

[Lursa]

Please explain why they shouldn;t be allowed in school if they don't have legitimate documented reasons.

We've discussed this and the facts (numbers) of risk/benefit havent changed, and neither has my answer. With no controls at all on vaccination, then anyone ignorant parent can choose not to vaccinate their kids (that have no medical restrictions), thus potentially greatly increasing the risk and reducing herd immunity effects.

 

[jaeger19]

The government can be involved in your medical decisions if you put others at risk. Should you be allowed to go to school with an active case of TB?

We just established that its not about putting others at risk.

if it was.. unvaccinated children.. for ANY reason.. would not be allowed to go to school.

but that's not the case.. children that aren;t vaccinated for acceptable reasons.. are allowed to go to public school..

and children who are not vaccinated for "unacceptable" reasons.. like parent choice.. are not allowed to go to school.

 

[jaeger19]

We've discussed this and the facts (numbers) of risk/benefit havent changed, and neither has my answer. With no controls at all on vaccination, then anyone ignorant parent can choose not to vaccinate their kids (that have no medical restrictions), thus potentially greatly increasing the risk and reducing herd immunity effects.

right.. the risk benefits haven't changed. and the facts are.. that without any controls on vaccination.. (which we don't on adults). then anyone can choose not to be vaccinated and guess what.. it has little effect on herd immunity.

that's the actual facts.. that when people are left to their own medical decisions, they tend to make good decisions.

Your premise that without mandates, herd immunity will be compromised because there will be a plethora of people choosing not to vaccinate for say MMR is a myth.

Yet regardless of that fact.. you accept that the government should make decision regarding vaccination and can mandate a medical procedure.. which a government official might do.. even though it is actually potentially harmful for children.