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When does "life" begin

jallman said:
I am really going to have to read "A Modest Proposal" over lunch today. This is just too funny.
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Was it you I suggested read that a long time ago---no, I think it was FutureIncoming....Now there's a guy who needs to read some Swift!
 
Felicity said:
Was it you I suggested read that a long time ago---no, I think it was FutureIncoming....Now there's a guy who needs to read some Swift!
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This is not a slight against FI in any way...the guy is intelligent beyond me. However, I do believe the humor would be completely lost on someone who takes himself that seriously.
 
jallman said:
This is not a slight against FI in any way...the guy is intelligent beyond me. However, I do believe the humor would be completely lost on someone who takes himself that seriously.
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I would be afraid he'd go make stew. :eek: (JK, FI--yous knows Is luv ya!)
 
rivrrat said:
ZEFs, perhaps. Just a guess.
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Cows are ZEFs too. It's a stage of development--like child or calf. What is it if it's not a human at a particular stage. (ZEF-burger is a catchier name than human-burger, though)
 
Felicity said:
Cows are ZEFs too. It's a stage of development--like child or calf. What is it if it's not a human at a particular stage. (ZEF-burger is a catchier name than human-burger, though)
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It is undeniable that life does begin at conception and that the zef is human. However, it is not a human. It has no individuality beyond its unique DNA. Are you really telling me unique DNA is the sum of our individuality?
 
Felicity said:
Cows are ZEFs too. It's a stage of development--like child or calf. What is it if it's not a human at a particular stage. (ZEF-burger is a catchier name than human-burger, though)
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You're right! Cows are ZEFs too a certain stages. So why is it okay to kill cows at any stage, anyway?

Also, I didn't say a human ZEF wasn't human. I said it wasn't a person.
 
jallman said:
It is undeniable that life does begin at conception and that the zef is human. However, it is not a human. It has no individuality beyond its unique DNA. Are you really telling me unique DNA is the sum of our individuality?
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Not the sum, but a distinct marker that makes denial of individuality impossible.
 
rivrrat said:
You're right! Cows are ZEFs too a certain stages. So why is it okay to kill cows at any stage, anyway?
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Wow, girl--you sure do go full circle!

Also, I didn't say a human ZEF wasn't human. I said it wasn't a person.
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And what makes a human a person?
 
Felicity said:
Not the sum, but a distinct marker that makes denial of individuality impossible.
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If that one characteristic could make denial of individuality impossible, then that characteristic is the sum of individuality...which you state it is not.
 
rivrrat said:
Cows have individuality too. Unique DNA, et al
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Agreed. I eat individuals that are cows (not all at once though--usually grilled medium-rare with some fabulous rub!)
 
rivrrat said:
You tell me what makes a person a person.
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You are the one who thinks it's fine to kill some humans--and defend that position by saying they aren't "persons"....you need to define your parameters.
 
Felicity said:
Agreed. I eat individuals that are cows (not all at once though--usually grilled medium-rare with some fabulous rub!)
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Speaking of...I'ma pm you a perfect brisket recipe. The sauce is so good and it cooks in the slow cooker, so no fuss...
 
Felicity said:
You are the one who thinks it's fine to kill some humans--and defend that position by saying they aren't "persons"....you need to define your parameters.
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And you're the one who thinks that ZEFs are persons worthy of protection. You need to defend your position by defining your parameters.
 
jallman said:
If that one characteristic could make denial of individuality impossible, then that characteristic is the sum of individuality...which you state it is not.
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sum implies there are other characteristics, no? For example, I could say that having leaves makes me some sort of plant....but it takes many other characteristics to make me a rose.
 
rivrrat said:
And you're the one who thinks that ZEFs are persons worthy of protection. You need to defend your position by defining your parameters.
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MY PARAMETERS = they are humans....ergo, persons.

Your turn.:2wave:
 
Felicity said:
sum implies there are other characteristics, no? For example, I could say that having leaves makes me some sort of plant....but it takes many other characteristics to make me a rose.
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Oh touche`. Someone's on top of her game today. I guess I will have to stop dreaming of baby briskets and start minding my step.

OK, so we establish that individuality cannot be denied. Now lets move on to entity. Is the ZEF an entity?
 
jallman said:
Is the ZEF an entity?
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I've never understood this....what's your hang-up about the word entity? I'm not being obtuse--i don't get it.:confused:
 
jallman said:
Oh touche`. Someone's on top of her game today. I guess I will have to stop dreaming of baby briskets and start minding my step.

OK, so we establish that individuality cannot be denied. Now lets move on to entity. Is the ZEF an entity?
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Why wouldn't it be an entity? While in the mother it is still not "part of her" and she completely understands it's individual existence and serperateness from her. The woman having an abortion wants "it" out. She's very clear about not wanting to continue carrying a living human in her womb. She has no fear that the dr. won't be able to seperate "it" from her. Her medical insurance can't be billed in the same manner it could if the dr. were removing a "defective", necrotic, or cancerous part from her. In fact many insurances won't pay for the procedure at all if it's elective. So clearly it's not part of her that is acting in a way which she doesn't want it to. It is a living human individual entity that she chooses to have removed so that her "space" her body her sovereignty is no longer infringed upon by this "other."
 
I mean isn't the whole arguement about how a woman should get to choose whether or not "another" gets to use her resources against her will? When the procedure is elective without a medical necessity the dr. isn't "fixing part of her" or getting together with other drs. to discuss the best course of action for the "condition" so much as the dr. is removing the living human from her womb because she does not consent to having it stay in her body. So clearly it is an individual entity. It's a human who is dependent on it's mother life but clearly an individual entity none the less.
 
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