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When does "life" begin

I guess you did not read the article that I linked to.
In that article it points out that the mother was having MEDICAL problems and because of these medical problems they delivered the baby early.

So YES it is an option.

If your ONLY options are DIE or ABORT, MOST of us would say you have NO option. A woman cannot DECIDE to have a 22 week fetus removed from her body just because she is tired of being pregnant.



IF a mother decided that she did not want to have the baby she has the option to deliver the baby early and give it up for adoption.

That is NOT an option currently.





As I pointed out in my other comments 50 years ago a baby delivered at 21 weeks would NOT have survived but with the improvements of medical technology babies that small can survive and many times survive without any long term damage.

Most often they do have long term damage.

BTW....IF the mother does not want the baby why would you care if there was any damage done to it or not? After all she was going to kill it. I would think you could call death via abortion irreparable damage. And in another 50 years as medical technology improves even more the odds of a baby this small being OK would be even greater.

No one wants to see a baby born to a life of suffering, not a woman's own baby or someone else's.



This means that some may not even realize that they were pregnant until after 21 weeks.

So yes...
Some may not decide to have an abortion until after 21 weeks.

Confusion Surrounds 'Partial Birth Abortion'

"Late-term abortions, that is, a procedure after the point in the pregnancy that the fetus is deemed able to live outside the uterus, are severely restricted, irrespective of the "partial birth abortion" laws. According to the Center for Reproductive Law and Policy, 36 states and the District of Columbia had these post-viability bans on abortion as of July 1999. Viability may be established by as the pregnancy enters its final three months, or more precisely, at the 23rd or 24th week of pregnancy, although it most commonly takes place in the 26th week, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute."
 
They don't have an OPTION. The only reason an abortion would be done at that time is MEDICAL, which means it is not REALLY an option.

Unless of course you go to someone like Dr. Tiller. :doh

2. Women don't wait until 21 weeks and THEN decide they WANT an abortion.

They most certainly do. Not the majority thank heavens but some do. There is no accounting for crazy. Don't you remember that one lady this year who shot herself in the stomach? There are women who take forever to decide and then they go see "late term" abortion specialists like Dr. Tiller. They are not all legitimately medically necessary abortions.
 
If your ONLY options are DIE or ABORT, MOST of us would say you have NO option. A woman cannot DECIDE to have a 22 week fetus removed from her body just because she is tired of being pregnant.

Actually there is no reason it wouldn't be an option.

Obviously she would need to have someone lined up who would be willing to pay the expenses but if she did not want to keep the child and there was someone else who wanted to adopt it there would be no reason she could not give it up.

Just because you say it is not an option does not mean it is not an option.

Most often they do have long term damage.

With the improvements in medical technology the odds of there being long term damage is alot less than it was years ago. And as improvements continue the odds of a healthy baby will continue to increase.

No one wants to see a baby born to a life of suffering, not a woman's own baby or someone else's.

And that is not your choice to make.

Most people who were born with some long term problem are happy that their mother did not abort them.

It is foolish for those of us who do not have some long term problem to try to impose our opinions as to what we would think if it was us.

Viability may be established by as the pregnancy enters its final three months, or more precisely, at the 23rd or 24th week of pregnancy, although it most commonly takes place in the 26th week, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute."

And as pointed out a baby can survive after only 21 weeks.

And in the 1960s 30 weeks was typically the cut off point of survival.

So as I pointed out before as technology improves the survival rates will continue to improve.
 
Actually there is no reason it wouldn't be an option.

Obviously she would need to have someone lined up who would be willing to pay the expenses but if she did not want to keep the child and there was someone else who wanted to adopt it there would be no reason she could not give it up.

Just because you say it is not an option does not mean it is not an option.

You show me ONE doctor who is willing to induce labor at 22 weeks ELECTIVELY. There is too much risk involved.
Prematurity

"However, whether or not a premature infant will survive is still intimately tied to his or her gestational age:


21 weeks or less: 0% survival rate


22 weeks: 0-10% survival rate


23 weeks: 10-35% survival rate


24 weeks: 40-70% survival rate


25 weeks: 50-80% survival rate


26 weeks: 80-90% survival rate


27 weeks: greater than 90% survival rate

Physicians cannot predict long-term complications of prematurity; some consequences may not become evident until the child is school-aged. Minor disabilities like learning problems, poor coordination, or short attention span may be the result of premature birth, but can be overcome with early intervention. The risks of serious long-term complications depend on many factors, including how premature the infant was at birth, weight at birth, and the presence or absence of breathing problems. Gender is a definite factor: a Swedish study published in 2003 found that boys are at greater risk of death or serious long-term consequences of prematurity than girls; for example, 60% of boys born at 24 weeeks' gestation die, compared to 38% mortality for girls. The development of infection or the presence of a birth defect can also affect long-term prognosis. Infections in premature and very low birth weight infants are a risk factor for later disorders of the nervous system; a study done at Johns Hopkins reported that 77 out of a group of 213 premature infants developed neurologic disorders. Severe disabilities like brain damage, blindness, and chronic lung problems are possible and may require ongoing care."






With the improvements in medical technology the odds of there being long term damage is alot less than it was years ago. And as improvements continue the odds of a healthy baby will continue to increase.

The odds are still too great to undertake such a venture by CHOICE.

Chicago Tribune news | Registration
"The chance of survival is not the only thing physicians and parents factor into decisions. The child's likely future quality of life, which no one can accurately predict, also looms large.

National follow-up studies of infants born at 23 or 24 weeks show that roughly a third are blind, deaf or living with cerebral palsy. A quarter are mentally retarded. Half have significant developmental problems."



And as pointed out a baby can survive after only 21 weeks.

VERY FEW. And what will its quality of life be?

And in the 1960s 30 weeks was typically the cut off point of survival.
So as I pointed out before as technology improves the survival rates will continue to improve.

Some doctors think there is a "wall" in gestational age that inprovement in technology cannot breach. It is commonly accepted procedure to offer premies before 22 weeks comfort care only.
 
You show me ONE doctor who is willing to induce labor at 22 weeks ELECTIVELY. There is too much risk involved.

I am willing to bet that I could find at least ONE pro-life doctor who would rather see a baby have a chance to live vs. being aborted.

"However, whether or not a premature infant will survive is still intimately tied to his or her gestational age:


21 weeks or less: 0% survival rate


22 weeks: 0-10% survival rate


23 weeks: 10-35% survival rate


24 weeks: 40-70% survival rate


25 weeks: 50-80% survival rate


26 weeks: 80-90% survival rate


27 weeks: greater than 90% survival rate

I find it funny how as I said before back in the 60s the survival rate for 27 weeks would have been ZERO now it is 90%.

Physicians cannot predict long-term complications of prematurity;

That's true.

But as I pointed out befoe as technology improves the odds of a "normal life" also improves.

The odds are still too great to undertake such a venture by CHOICE.

Why?

IF the mother wants to get rid of the baby but someone else wants to adopt the baby it would not be up to you to decide that the odds were too great.

VERY FEW. And what will its quality of life be?

I always find that sort of reasoning to be disturbing.

Because a baby may not have a 100% normal life people think they are better off dead.

Those people who were born into a life that is not of a perfect "quality" do not think they would be better off dead.

Some doctors think there is a "wall" in gestational age that inprovement in technology cannot breach. It is commonly accepted procedure to offer premies before 22 weeks comfort care only.

As I pointed out, at one time that "wall" was at 30 weeks.

Even if this "wall" is at 22 weeks the risks to the baby will continue to reduce.

We don't know what another 50 or 100 years will bring.
 
by dotted mint
Originally Posted by OKgrannie
You show me ONE doctor who is willing to induce labor at 22 weeks ELECTIVELY. There is too much risk involved.

I am willing to bet that I could find at least ONE pro-life doctor who would rather see a baby have a chance to live vs. being aborted

:2brickwal NO doctor will remove a fetus from a woman at 22 weeks ELECTIVELY period. If a woman waits that long to make a decision, she no longer has a choice. The fetus is stuck in there until it decides to come out or medical conditions develop that require its being removed. Abortions are not done at 22 weeks except for medical reasons.:think:
 
:2brickwal NO doctor will remove a fetus from a woman at 22 weeks ELECTIVELY period. If a woman waits that long to make a decision, she no longer has a choice. The fetus is stuck in there until it decides to come out or medical conditions develop that require its being removed. Abortions are not done at 22 weeks except for medical reasons.:think:

Alright.....let's put it this way.

IF after 22 weeks some medical condition developes that threatens the mothers life she does NOT need to have an abortion.

Killing the baby is not the only option.
 
One cannot just "claim" suicidal depression, there are definable symptoms.
Yeah...the most obvious and the ONLY one that matters is..."I am going to kill myself."
 
Alright.....let's put it this way.

IF after 22 weeks some medical condition developes that threatens the mothers life she does NOT need to have an abortion.

Killing the baby is not the only option.


You're absolutely right, and if that happens the woman will be keeping the baby, not offering it for adoption, unless, of course that is is what she intended to do from the beginning. Of course, the premie is likely to have disabilities that will make it LESS adoptable.
 
Of course, the premie is likely to have disabilities that will make it LESS adoptable.

Most anti-abortionists couldn't care less what happens to the baby after birth, just so long as it's born. Quality of life, whether it's wanted or loved, whether it will ever be happy is really irrelevant.
 
Most anti-abortionists couldn't care less what happens to the baby after birth, just so long as it's born. Quality of life, whether it's wanted or loved, whether it will ever be happy is really irrelevant.

That's crap.
 
That's crap.

No, that's truth. Oh sure, they might care about you when they need cannon fodder to go off and fight one of their silly wars, but otherwise...
 
Most anti-abortionists couldn't care less what happens to the baby after birth, just so long as it's born. Quality of life, whether it's wanted or loved, whether it will ever be happy is really irrelevant.

And some pro-abortion people don't seem to care if there is a chance for the baby to live or not.

They seem more interested in making sure the baby is killed.

Also if you ask people who don't have the best "quality of life" if they would rather have been aborted I would be willing to bet that 99% of them would much rather have a poor "quality of life" than no life at all.

So at what point does their "quality of life" make their life important?

So if their "quality of life" isn't as good as you think it should be they are better off dead????
 
They seem more interested in making sure the baby is killed.

Which is ridiculous, there isn't one pro-abortion person on the planet. Pro-abortion means you support women getting abortion in 100% of the cases, ie. genocide and the end of the human race.

We support a woman's right to CHOOSE what she wants to do. If that's abortion, fine. If that's adoption, fine. If she wants to keep it, fine. It's her choice, not yours.

Also if you ask people who don't have the best "quality of life" if they would rather have been aborted I would be willing to bet that 99% of them would much rather have a poor "quality of life" than no life at all.

Given the choice between being retarded or seriously crippled or living my life in an abusive household where I'm beaten, starved and molested, I'd much rather never live at all. Blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?
 
Given the choice between being retarded or seriously crippled or living my life in an abusive household where I'm beaten, starved and molested, I'd much rather never live at all. Blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?

No--it only PROVES the point. You would have a CHOICE--the ZEF never gets the opportunity!
 
No--it only PROVES the point. You would have a CHOICE--the ZEF never gets the opportunity!

K, you go ask them if they want to live.


Oh wait... they aren't capable of hearing, understanding, conveying anything... they aren't even capable of *having* an opinion. In fact, they aren't even aware of their own existance.

but, you could go ask 'em anyway if it makes ya feel better ;)

Anyone ask cows if they want to become hamburgers, btw?
 
K, you go ask them if they want to live.


Oh wait... they aren't capable of hearing, understanding, conveying anything... they aren't even capable of *having* an opinion. In fact, they aren't even aware of their own existance.

but, you could go ask 'em anyway if it makes ya feel better ;)
Did anyone ask you when you were 1 day old? Would it have been okay to kill you then? Or how about while you're sleeping--If someone asked you quietly, without waking you, would it be okay to kill you then? You weren't capable at one day old, nor were you capable while sleeping....

Anyone ask cows if they want to become hamburgers, btw?
Had any human-burgers lately? Why not?:confused:
 
Did anyone ask you when you were 1 day old? Would it have been okay to kill you then? Or how about while you're sleeping--If someone asked you quietly, without waking you, would it be okay to kill you then? You weren't capable at one day old, nor were you capable while sleeping....
You're the one talking about their "choice", not me. You figure out the logistics. Something that isn't a person, or even a sentient being, doesn't have any legal choices. Tough luck for them. Not that it matters.. they don't know any better since they can't even think.

Had any human-burgers lately? Why not?:confused:
Why is it okay to kill cows?
 
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