When does "life" begin

[dottedmint]

I'll start off by saying that I do not support a 100% ban on abortions.

HOWEVER------

An embryo inside of it's mother is "human life".

It has all of the characteristics of "life" and it is "human".

THE CHARACTERISTICS OF "LIFE"

1. Made up of cells
2. Complex organized patterns
3. Use energy
4. Must maintain a stable internal condition
5. Growth and Change
6. Reproduction

It is genetically different from the mother so it is not "part" of the mother.

Neither a sperm nor an egg can be "human life" because 1. they both only have 1/2 the genetic makeup of a human and 2. neither one of them have the ability to (BY THEMSELVES) grow into an adult human.

Once the egg and sperm are joined it is genetically "complete" and has the ability to grow into an adult human.

This means that once an egg is fertilized it is "human life".

We can debate if abortions should be legal or not but human life is human life.

 

[Felicity]

Once the egg and sperm are joined it is genetically "complete" and has the ability to grow into an adult human.

This means that once an egg is fertilized it is "human life".

We can debate if abortions should be legal or not but human life is human life.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/485946-post727.html

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Personally, and practically, I believe it starts at birth. I dont think abortion is an issue about suffering for the ZEF. I also dont think it one of spiritual consequence.

If I am to believe that a soul exists, and a soul enters the ZEF at conception, then the soul mathmatics dont workout when a zygote splits and becomes twins, or two join and become a chimera. What, does one soul become two? Are some people two in one?

I do not believe the interests of said ZEF's trump those of their makers. It does not matter to me whether it is a personal choice, or if it is because of rape/incest. What another human being does is of no concern to me on any moral grounds, when it is not an issue of real human suffering.

Especially in the case of perhaps one of the most valuable forms of research to cure human suffering, stem cell research, I do not believe the "interests" of a 150 cell blastacist trump those of 9 year old burn victims, or adults with muscular distrophy.

I believe more suffering is brought upon the earth in the destruction of a fly, than in embryonic stem cell research.

 

[OKgrannie]

I'll start off by saying that I do not support a 100% ban on abortions.
HOWEVER------
An embryo inside of it's mother is "human life".
It has all of the characteristics of "life" and it is "human".
THE CHARACTERISTICS OF "LIFE"

1. Made up of cells
2. Complex organized patterns
3. Use energy
4. Must maintain a stable internal condition
5. Growth and Change
6. Reproduction

Here are some characteristics of HUMAN life. Do you think a zef exhibits these characteristics?

The Characteristics of Life - with examples ref. the human species. Basic Human Anatomy for Bodywork Therapists.

"Courses in Human Anatomy and Physiology concentrate on the human species so the table below includes comments on each of the characteristics as applied to humans:

Characteristic of Life: Comments in case of humans:

Eating
Movement
Reproduction
Breathing
Growing
Waste (excretion)
Secretion
Circulation"

It is genetically different from the mother so it is not "part" of the mother.

It is attached to the pregnant woman, dependent upon that attachment, so for all practical purposes, it is a "part" of the woman.

Neither a sperm nor an egg can be "human life" because 1. they both only have 1/2 the genetic makeup of a human and 2. neither one of them have the ability to (BY THEMSELVES) grow into an adult human.

Both sperm and eggs are human life, they are human (what else could they be, dog or cat?), and they are alive (if they were dead, they couldn't combine to create more life).

Once the egg and sperm are joined it is genetically "complete" and has the ability to grow into an adult human.

It doesn't have the ability to grow into anything without the assistance of a woman...and if she doesn't want to assist, it's her choice.

 

[Felicity]

Personally, and practically, I believe it starts at birth. I dont think abortion is an issue about suffering for the ZEF. I also dont think it one of spiritual consequence.

If I am to believe that a soul exists, and a soul enters the ZEF at conception, then the soul mathmatics dont workout when a zygote splits and becomes twins, or two join and become a chimera. What, does one soul become two? Are some people two in one?

I don't know why someone who so consistently tries to deny God so often brings the spiritual aspect into the debate other than it is along the lines of "the lady doth protest too much..." But anyway....

Why couldn't a dual soul exist in the future twin--or why couldn't the twinning process be a "birth" of two souls--or why couldn't the chimera be the natural death of one of the souls? In matters of "ensoulment" your material rules need not apply and thus are of no merit in a debate concerning biological "life."

I do not believe the interests of said ZEF's trump those of their makers. It does not matter to me whether it is a personal choice, or if it is because of rape/incest. What another human being does is of no concern to me on any moral grounds, when it is not an issue of real human suffering.Especially in the case of perhaps one of the most valuable forms of research to cure human suffering, stem cell research, I do not believe the "interests" of a 150 cell blastacist trump those of 9 year old burn victims, or adults with muscular distrophy. I believe more suffering is brought upon the earth in the destruction of a fly, than in embryonic stem cell research.

And in that you have offered several "subjective" POVs. For someone so interested in objective and verafiable truth, this seems inconsistant with your stance.

 

[Felicity]

Characteristic of Life: Comments in case of humans:

Eating
Movement
Reproduction
Breathing
Growing
Waste (excretion)
Secretion
Circulation"

ZEFs qualify in all these instances.

It is attached to the pregnant woman, dependent upon that attachment, so for all practical purposes, it is a "part" of the woman.

So some women have penises, eh?:roll:

 

[OKgrannie]

So some women have penises, eh?:roll:

"TOUCHING" is NOT "ATTACHED."

 

[Felicity]

"TOUCHING" is NOT "ATTACHED."

Eh....some women are carrying male fetuses. If a male fetus is "part of the woman's body"--some women apparently have penises according to you.:roll:


(always thinkin' about sex, eh grannie?:mrgreen: )

 

[OKgrannie]

Eh....some women are carrying male fetuses. If a male fetus is "part of the woman's body"--some women apparently have penises according to you.:roll:

I guess they do, temporarily, at least.

(always thinkin' about sex, eh grannie?:mrgreen: )

Well, at my age, I'm grateful...

 

[Felicity]

I guess they do, temporarily, at least.

Can you find any medical source that validates this conclusion?

Well, at my age, I'm grateful...

Viagra is a wonderful thing, eh?:mrgreen:

 

[OKgrannie]

Can you find any medical source that validates this conclusion?

That's your assertion, you look it up.

Viagra is a wonderful thing, eh?:mrgreen:

Is that for women???

 

[Felicity]

That's your assertion, you look it up.

It was a question that you answered in the affirmative. Try again, dear--you are the one who asserts a fetus is part of a woman. If that is so, it should be no problem finding a medical source demonstrating women with penises. As a person who holds a contrary view--I can find sources that support my contention they are seperate individuals.

Is that for women???

You said once you didn't swing toward women...I assume you like men approx. in your own agegroup. perhaps the "grannie" nomenclature is an effort to appear wise with age... whatever...or maybe it's alzheimer's

 

[Jerry]

It was a question that you answered in the affirmative. Try again, dear--you are the one who asserts a fetus is part of a woman. If that is so, it should be no problem finding a medical source demonstrating women with penises.

I could source it but I'd get banned for doing so :mrgreen:

 

[Jerry]

Eh....some women are carrying male fetuses. If a male fetus is "part of the woman's body"--some women apparently have penises according to you.

I guess they do, temporarily, at least.

So.....a woman who is pregnant with a male fetus is a hermaphrodite?

What is it called when she's pregnant with a female fetus...since she would then have 2.....

 

[OKgrannie]

So.....a woman who is pregnant with a male fetus is a hermaphrodite?

What is it called when she's pregnant with a female fetus...since she would then have 2.....

Not that anyone would notice.

 

[Jerry]

Not that anyone would notice.

Good thing C Foster/JimmyJack/Jegshemash isn't hangin around this thread....if a fetus is nothing more than a part of a woman's body, then when someone has sex with her they ARE having sex with the fetus by extension.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I don't know why someone who so consistently tries to deny God so often brings the spiritual aspect into the debate other than it is along the lines of "the lady doth protest too much..." But anyway....

Its called knowing the talking points of your opponents. I am not a spiritual person, but I do not deny that people have spiritual experiences.

Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean that I don't think the question of god's existence is among the most important ones. The answer to said question can very much explain the behavior of otherwise rational individuals.

Why couldn't a dual soul exist in the future twin--or why couldn't the twinning process be a "birth" of two souls--or why couldn't the chimera be the natural death of one of the souls? In matters of "ensoulment" your material rules need not apply and thus are of no merit in a debate concerning biological "life."

Material rules often don't apply to supernatural phenomena. Did you have a point, or shall I just grant you the Queen of the Obvious crown?

Why couldn't it? I don't know, why don't you pose that question to someone who believes in souls, and that they are UNIQUE to our bodies.

And in that you have offered several "subjective" POVs. For someone so interested in objective and verafiable truth, this seems inconsistant with your stance.

Of course my point of view will be subjective. I may strive for objectivity, but I will always be realistic about my bias. Being realistic while trying your best to be objective isn't inconsistent.

Unless you of course are aware of some circumstance where a person's subjective experience can be confirmed as an objective truth.

Its easy for me to come off as objective about things that are verifiably true, to expect that of me when speaking on spirituality, is to expect far too much. I'm flattered that you would have such expectations though.

 

[Felicity]

I'm flattered that you would have such expectations though.

Hey...you're welcome!:mrgreen: I just found it interesting that you would steer the conversation in that direction. Although I believe there is a spiritual componant to humans, and I believe in God, I don't find that angle necessary to the abortion debate and so forgo that angle usually in deference to others' non-belief--and basically because you can't objectively PROVE something that requires faith.

 

[1069]

Personally, and practically, I believe it starts at birth. I dont think abortion is an issue about suffering for the ZEF. I also dont think it one of spiritual consequence.

If I am to believe that a soul exists, and a soul enters the ZEF at conception, then the soul mathmatics dont workout when a zygote splits and becomes twins, or two join and become a chimera. What, does one soul become two? Are some people two in one?

I do not believe the interests of said ZEF's trump those of their makers. It does not matter to me whether it is a personal choice, or if it is because of rape/incest. What another human being does is of no concern to me on any moral grounds, when it is not an issue of real human suffering.

Especially in the case of perhaps one of the most valuable forms of research to cure human suffering, stem cell research, I do not believe the "interests" of a 150 cell blastacist trump those of 9 year old burn victims, or adults with muscular distrophy.

I believe more suffering is brought upon the earth in the destruction of a fly, than in embryonic stem cell research.

What he said.

 

[Felicity]

What he said.

Awesome.:shock:

 

[1069]

Awesome.:shock:

What?

I feel less and less compelled lately to do more than check into these threads and offer a word or two of appreciation and encouragement to the morally and ethically correct side.
I despise redundance, and my opinions on the matter are known.
Why waste bandwidth by posting them over and over on every thread, especially when others on the thread have already encapsulated them so concisely? It would no doubt take me a thousand or more words to say what Lachean just said in two hundred.

 

[Felicity]

:july_4th: :july_4th:

All hail Felicity! :thanks

"Queen of the Obvious"!

:allhail

 

[Felicity]

What?

I feel less and less compelled lately to do more than check into these threads and offer a word or two of appreciation and encouragement to the morally and ethically correct side.
I despise redundance, and my opinions on the matter are known.
Why waste bandwidth by posting them over and over on every thread, especially when others on the thread have already encapsulated them so concisely? It would no doubt take me a thousand or more words to say what Lachean just said in two hundred.

You're right. You have nothing to add. Thanks.

That's more of that Queen of Obvious stuff:mrgreen:

 

[Felicity]

Anyway...it might be the pervert in me...but I'm still interested in getting to the bottom of this women with penises thing. ...Grannie...you there?

 

[dottedmint]

"Personally, and practically, I believe it starts at birth."

So the split second before birth the fetus isn't human and isn't life?

"If I am to believe that a soul exists, and a soul enters the ZEF at conception, then the soul mathmatics dont workout when a zygote splits and becomes twins, or two join and become a chimera. What, does one soul become two? Are some people two in one?"

I cannot prove that you or I have a soul and I am not going to base my stance on the existance of a soul.

"Especially in the case of perhaps one of the most valuable forms of research to cure human suffering, stem cell research, I do not believe the "interests" of a 150 cell blastacist trump those of 9 year old burn victims, or adults with muscular distrophy."

That argument can be used to justify the murder of anyone 'less valuable' than others.